Dundee Appeal?

[gianlucatoni]

By the way, why are the Queen of the South doing better than us, while they are a part-time team? Are their management team good? Do they have a good coach?

 

 

There he goes again with his bloken engrish.

 

As for QOS they don't have a coach but they do have a minibus.

[jaggy]

By the way, why are the Queen of the South doing better than us, while they are a part-time team?

Are they? I dont think so

[sigesige00]

Even after the 25-point reduction, Dundee are only 5 points behind Stirling.

It is quite possible that Dundee survive in the 1st Division.

The automatic relegation to the 3rd Division must be the rule.

[Jaggernaut]

Even after the 25-point reduction, Dundee are only 5 points behind Stirling.

It is quite possible that Dundee survive in the 1st Division.

The automatic relegation to the 3rd Division must be the rule.

Agreed. They've won every match since the reduction was announced (I think). And they don't think they've done anything wrong.......

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Agreed. They've won every match since the reduction was announced (I think). And they don't think they've done anything wrong.......

They may have just been caught off guard. They could have been planning to sell Griffiths and/or Harkins for decent money and bring in a couple of cheap replacements. They were assuming that while under appeal to SFA the new player embargo would be temporarily lifted. They've just found out that route remains closed.

Their so called chief exec McLean is most indignant about this. Obviously he doesn't see anything morally questionable about ripping up folks contracts, making them redundant and then a few months down the line replacing them.

[Steven H]

They may have just been caught off guard. They could have been planning to sell Griffiths and/or Harkins for decent money and bring in a couple of cheap replacements. They were assuming that while under appeal to SFA the new player embargo would be temporarily lifted. They've just found out that route remains closed.

Their so called chief exec McLean is most indignant about this. Obviously he doesn't see anything morally questionable about ripping up folks contracts, making them redundant and then a few months down the line replacing them.

 

Does this embargo also prevent players leaving Dundee?

[Pie Of The Month]

Does this embargo also prevent players leaving Dundee?

 

As far as I know the embargo prevents then registering any players so it'll just be bringing players in. It also means that Gibson can't register for them after returning to the club from loan.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

As far as I know the embargo prevents then registering any players so it'll just be bringing players in. It also means that Gibson can't register for them after returning to the club from loan.

That's as I understand it. They were probably going to sign the guy Robb (who I assume is playing for nothing) but he can now only play a few games as trialist. Not sure if he slipped in under the radar or not.

I'm guessing they'll still sell Griffiths but they'll maybe be balancing up selling Harkins against their prospects of avoiding relegation. Their cup game will surely show their intentions and it'll be interesting to see who they cup tie.

I'm unclear on whether they can sell Grifiths to another club and get him back on loan. I suppose they could structure any deal so as they effectively aren't paying Griffiths (or Harkins) during the loan spell and thus get round the embargo. All they need do is agree a price with the buying club and then knock a few grand off.

[Jaggernaut]

That's as I understand it. They were probably going to sign the guy Robb (who I assume is playing for nothing) but he can now only play a few games as trialist. Not sure if he slipped in under the radar or not.

I'm guessing they'll still sell Griffiths but they'll maybe be balancing up selling Harkins against their prospects of avoiding relegation. Their cup game will surely show their intentions and it'll be interesting to see who they cup tie.

I'm unclear on whether they can sell Grifiths to another club and get him back on loan. I suppose they could structure any deal so as they effectively aren't paying Griffiths (or Harkins) during the loan spell and thus get round the embargo. All they need do is agree a price with the buying club and then knock a few grand off.

They might try to do that, but I would expect any team buying Griffiths or Harkins would want to play them, rather than simply hand them back to Dundee.

[beep0608]

They might try to do that, but I would expect any team buying Griffiths or Harkins would want to play them, rather than simply hand them back to Dundee.

 

I don't trust that administrator. He should force the sale of any saleable asset. I find it interesting that a junior player turned down a move to Rangers and/or Celtic. Should that have been allowed? Makes me suspicious. The administrator is acting like a fan. If I was a creditor I wouldn't be pleased but it looks like it's one rule for Dundee and another for the rest of us. At least we got Scott Fox out of it, hopefully for the long term.

[Willjag]

It also means that Gibson can't register for them after returning to the club from loan.

I understood that he wasn't re-registered in time after returning from his loan deal with Sligo, but he'll be ok from now on.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

I don't trust that administrator. He should force the sale of any saleable asset. I find it interesting that a junior player turned down a move to Rangers and/or Celtic. Should that have been allowed? Makes me suspicious. The administrator is acting like a fan. If I was a creditor I wouldn't be pleased but it looks like it's one rule for Dundee and another for the rest of us. At least we got Scott Fox out of it, hopefully for the long term.

Can someone actually outline what the role of the administrator is? Is it to gain as much money as possible for creditors through the sale of assets, or is it to attempt to ensure the survival of the business as a going concern leading to a subsequent sale?

 

The former sounds like the job of a liquidator. If it's the latter then the club surely has to be an attractive proposition for prospective buyers. Could it be the administrator remains hopeful a buyer will pick up the club's liabilities, including the mega-bucks wages of some of its star players?

[Mr Bunny]

Can someone actually outline what the role of the administrator is? Is it to gain as much money as possible for creditors through the sale of assets, or is it to attempt to ensure the survival of the business as a going concern leading to a subsequent sale?

 

The former sounds like the job of a liquidator. If it's the latter then the club surely has to be an attractive proposition for prospective buyers. Could it be the administrator remains hopeful a buyer will pick up the club's liabilities, including the mega-bucks wages of some of its star players?

 

WHAT IS COMPANY ADMINISTRATION?

 

If the Directors of a Company believe that a Company is insolvent, but that it has a solid "core" business which will allow it to trade viably in the future, the Company can appoint an Administrator.

 

The Directors will put up a proposal that existing debts be extinguished by paying creditors a percentage of their claims in full discharge of all liabilities of the Company.

 

When a Company goes into administration the Company appoints an official Administrator who is an insolvency practitioner who is independent of the Company.

 

The Administrator calls a meeting of creditors.

 

At the meeting of creditors the Administrator informs the creditors whether they would be better off:

 

*

putting the Company into liquidation immediately;

*

or accepting the offer of the Directors.

 

If the creditors want to accept the offer of the Directors then the Company and the Directors will execute a Deed of Company Arrangement which will provide that the creditors take the payments (often made by the Directors) in full satisfaction of their claims against the Company.

 

Until the Deed of Company Arrangement is executed, the Administrator controls the Company.

 

Once the Deed of Company Arrangement has been executed the management of the Company returns to the Directors.

 

Looked all that up on google as you'de expect, I'm no expert. But it seems to confirm what I thought, that the administrator has to try to pay as much of the creditors money back as he can while trying to maintain some viable core business.

 

Now, my opionion:

 

To my mind the Dundee adminsitrator seems to have been acting much more for Dundee than the creditors. However this month will tell more. They have two very good assets that they can sell and probably some lesser but still sellable ones too.

 

It's not the administrator's concern whether Dundee get relegated or not - only that as many of the creditors get as much of their money owed as possible, while keeping Dundee alive as a going concern - which they still would be in a lower division.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mr Bunny

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

Apparently, Dundee's creditors are set to accept a CVA, the total of which has been gathered through the fundraising efforts of individual fans and DFCSS. If that's the case, would the club stiull be required to sell Griddiths and Harkins now if the CVA money has been secured?

[GrantB]

The figure I heard was 6p in the £. Meanwhile the administrator will pocket a tidy £75K.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Meanwhile the administrator will pocket a tidy £75K.

Surely it must be much more than that?

[beep0608]

Apparently, Dundee's creditors are set to accept a CVA, the total of which has been gathered through the fundraising efforts of individual fans and DFCSS. If that's the case, would the club stiull be required to sell Griddiths and Harkins now if the CVA money has been secured?

 

That would be sickening. If they were allowed to hold on to them long term, in addition to the time they've kept them already, that would be salt in the wound. All the while they gain and don't pay for their crimes. B*ssas.

[Dick Dastardly]

WHAT IS COMPANY ADMINISTRATION?

 

If the Directors of a Company believe that a Company is insolvent, but that it has a solid "core" business which will allow it to trade viably in the future, the Company can appoint an Administrator.

 

The Directors will put up a proposal that existing debts be extinguished by paying creditors a percentage of their claims in full discharge of all liabilities of the Company.

 

When a Company goes into administration the Company appoints an official Administrator who is an insolvency practitioner who is independent of the Company.

 

The Administrator calls a meeting of creditors.

 

At the meeting of creditors the Administrator informs the creditors whether they would be better off:

 

*

putting the Company into liquidation immediately;

*

or accepting the offer of the Directors.

 

If the creditors want to accept the offer of the Directors then the Company and the Directors will execute a Deed of Company Arrangement which will provide that the creditors take the payments (often made by the Directors) in full satisfaction of their claims against the Company.

 

Until the Deed of Company Arrangement is executed, the Administrator controls the Company.

 

Once the Deed of Company Arrangement has been executed the management of the Company returns to the Directors.

 

Looked all that up on google as you'de expect, I'm no expert. But it seems to confirm what I thought, that the administrator has to try to pay as much of the creditors money back as he can while trying to maintain some viable core business.

 

Now, my opionion:

 

To my mind the Dundee adminsitrator seems to have been acting much more for Dundee than the creditors. However this month will tell more. They have two very good assets that they can sell and probably some lesser but still sellable ones too.

 

It's not the administrator's concern whether Dundee get relegated or not - only that as many of the creditors get as much of their money owed as possible, while keeping Dundee alive as a going concern - which they still would be in a lower division.

 

A very good summary, and the important point is that the Administrator's primary role is to recover as much as possible for the creditors. As much as we all want it, that does not mean punish Dundee, and in his defense, by holding onto Griffiths and Harkins, probably the only assets of any value, I think he is probably doing the right thing.

 

There are rumored to be about £2m in debt and if the 6p in the pound offer is accurate, that would mean the creditors would get £120,000 from the sale of the club in it's current state. Sell Griffiths and Harkins and the value will be massively reduced from the reduction in assets and the almost certain reduction in the clubs league status.

 

So, how much would they get for the 2 players mentioned ? Probably not a lot. I can't see that any Scottish club that can afford them would want them, which leaves the English Leagues. GH was hardly a roaring success there and with times tough I can't see them fetching more than £250k for the pair. Take away agents fees, sell on clauses, players cut, administrator's fees, taxes and there isn't going to be much left for the creditors.

 

OK, so some of this is based on rumour and speculation, but I just wanted to suggest that it is not neccesary for the administrator to sell everything to be doing his job.

[PaleGreySky]

The value of the club post administration is not a concern for the administrator. That would mean the administrator was looking out for the interests of the owners of the club. There would still be a club without Harkins and Griffiths, but it would be of less value. That's not the administrator's problem or the creditor's. If the creditors are only getting 6p in the £, then any asset which is not absolutely necessary for the future viability of the company should be sold until they have exhausted these assets in attempting to offer as close to 100p in the £ as possible.

Edited January 6, 2011 by PaleGreySky

[Dick Dastardly]

Exactly my point. If selling/getting rid of Griffith/Harkins is going to get the creditors less than 6p in the pound then he is doing the right thing. If not then the creditors would be able to sue. Only he (and the creditors) will have all the figures.

[PaleGreySky]

The club holding onto the players can't make available any money for the creditors, though, surely? The only way these players, as assets, can affect the CVA is if they are liquidated (we wish).

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Exactly my point. If selling/getting rid of Griffith/Harkins is going to get the creditors less than 6p in the pound then he is doing the right thing. If not then the creditors would be able to sue. Only he (and the creditors) will have all the figures.

I understand over 75% of the debt is owed to Mssrs Melville & Brannan as soft loans. I read somewhere that 75% is the threshold whereupon debtors can set terms of a CVA. Those being owed the remaining 25% are forced to go along with what's set.

That's why I'd like to see Dundee's punishment also take into account the level of CVA. At the moment I suppose if another club went into administration and subsequently paid out 25p in the £ they'd still face the same penalty as a club paying out a pittance.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I understand over 75% of the debt is owed to Mssrs Melville & Brannan as soft loans. I read somewhere that 75% is the threshold whereupon debtors can set terms of a CVA. Those being owed the remaining 25% are forced to go along with what's set.

That's why I'd like to see Dundee's punishment also take into account the level of CVA. At the moment I suppose if another club went into administration and subsequently paid out 25p in the £ they'd still face the same penalty as a club paying out a pittance.

Obviously reading this I'm out with my arithmetic.

[beep0608]

Obviously reading this I'm out with my arithmetic.

 

We now have two threads on the same track, more or less, but without repeating everything on the other one, if the HMRC's claim reaches 25% of the debt, and they do vote against, then that may be the end for Dundee. Did the administrator emphasise the MAY though? If the CVA falls, is there another course of action possible? Or, is that it? Dead and buried?

[MerryHell]

Obviously reading this I'm out with my arithmetic.

 

The more I read about their situation, the more I get annoyed at their protestations of innocence and pleas for leniency. How did the HMRC debt manage to rise to £550000? Have they not even been paying in recent months? This club are a joke and deserve every point deducted of the 25.

 

On the point above, I think that if HMRC vote against then it fails, and it's final.