Spl2 - 10 Clubs Resign From Sfl

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Can someone explain to me why these clubs are leaving a relatively well-run and respected organisation to throw their lot in with an opportunistic, shabby and self-righteous cabal?

 

I can only assume you place a lot of faith in the use of the word "relatively". Otherwise would you care to expound on the notion that the SFL is well run? Last I heard it was run by a Mr Ballantyne of Airdrie and David Longmuir. I don't suppose I have to point many in the direction of where their sympathy/leanings are alleged to lie.

[JeanieD]

I can only assume you place a lot of faith in the use of the word "relatively". Otherwise would you care to expound on the notion that the SFL is well run? Last I heard it was run by a Mr Ballantyne of Airdrie and David Longmuir. I don't suppose I have to point many in the direction of where their sympathy/leanings are alleged to lie.

 

Self-evidently the "relatively" relates to the comparison between the SFL and the unbounded honesty, decency and utter selflessness expounded by the likes of Mr Lawell, the Board and Management of Dundee United FC, the splendid self-preservation ethic, and the heroic efforts last year to introduce a brand new club into their ranks in defiance of every rule known to the organisation or the governing body. So yes I do put a fair amount of faith in the term "relatively"

[daxington preamble]

For years the SFL has let down their full time clubs big time. I'd like someone to point to a time when PTFC wouldn't have felt aligned to join a breakaway group. Alternatively point to a recent time where the part time club SFL majority has been aligned to league reconstruction or indeed anything that could be described as progress.

Next season will provide a novelty for us in that we'll mostly be playing clubs we don't regularly play but we shouldn't either forget our roots or pretend that Scottish football isn't repetitive and boring. The status quo isn't an option.

 

Have to agree - we must have re-organisation to help the full time clubs in Scotland that fall out with the SPL. Ross County and St Mirren simply voted against a new league structure cos they felt they had a better chance of clinging to top level football in the current limited set up.

SPL is a horrid organisation but the status quo is just not an option.

[billko]

By STEPHEN HALLIDAY

Published on 03/05/2013 22:27

SCOTTISH Football League chief executive David Longmuir has dismissed the threat of a potential breakaway of ten of his organisation’s clubs, insisting there is no appetite in the Scottish Premier League to admit them as members.

 

Longmuir last night confirmed receipt of a lawyer’s letter on behalf of the ten clubs in line to comprise next season’s First Division – Dundee, Morton, Livingston, Hamilton, Falkirk, Raith Rovers, Dumbarton, Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath and Queen of the South – indicating their intention to resign immediately from the SFL if the opportunity to form an SPL2 arises.

The move came after a meeting of the clubs hosted by Hamilton on Thursday night in the continuing fall-out of last month’s collapse of the contentious 12-12-18 league reconstruction proposal when it was vetoed by St Mirren and Ross County in a vote of SPL clubs.

An alternative bid to introduce play-offs between the SPL and SFL next season, as a precursor to amalgamating the two organisations and introducing a new financial distribution model, will be discussed by the SPL clubs again at Hampden on Tuesday.

Longmuir is adamant that remains the preferred option of both the SPL and SFL, in conjuction with the Scottish Football Association, and says any increased revenue for First Division clubs would not be available if they broke away and breached the terms of the £1.8 million annual settlement agreement set out when the SPL was formed in 1998.

“What the SFL1 clubs are doing is difficult for me to comprehend, because I don’t know where they think they are going,” Longmuir told The
Scotsman. “I don’t think there is any room at the inn.

“What has happened is that they had a sniff of the carrot which was there in the previous 12-12-18 proposal. They have seen a bit of money being dangled in front of them.

“That opportunity was closed off to them because of the SPL’s own voting mechanism, so they now think ‘where is that money?’ Well, you have to remember that money was coming to them because it was going to be a combined organisation.

“That would have brought back in the settlement agreement and the Rangers television money which we currently sub-contract to the SPL. So that’s where the additional money was coming from. But without a merged body, that money does not become a pooled pot. That money remains SFL money and a legally binding obligation between the two organisations.

“I have had a letter from a lawyer intimating that these clubs, in the event that they are admitted to the SPL, would wish to resign from the SFL. They have not been invited anywhere but at the moment are knocking on a door which is closed.”

In the aftermath of last month’s failure to push through the 12-12-18 plan, several SPL chairmen indicated there was no desire to form an SPL2. One senior SPL source, who did not wish to be named, insists that remains the case and described the breakaway threat as a “sideshow” and “an act of desperate men”.

Under SFL rule 12, no club can resign without a notice period of two years unless they receive the approval of at least two-thirds of the votes cast at a general meeting. But the ten rebel clubs believe they are entitled to leave immediately by exercising a separate rule, 15.2, which specifically details taking up membership of the SPL and states a club is not obliged to give any notice.

Longmuir accepts the SFL could face a legal challenge on that basis but is confident the two-year notice period would hold sway over a rule which was put in place solely to accommodate the extension of the SPL from ten to 12 clubs a decade ago.

“I would argue that Rule 15 was put there to allow the SPL to expand in 2002-03, when it increased by two clubs,” said Longmuir. “Rule 15 was put there for that purpose only. But because it was then part of the settlement agreement, it had to remain.

“But to me, our two-year notice period, Rule 12, is still required. If there was a vacancy and the SPL decided this was the route they wanted to go down to divide Scottish football further and cast aside some of the other clubs, then there would probably be a legal argument as to whether Rule 12 or Rule 15 would take precedence.

“The SPL are meeting on Tuesday to discuss some of the options and I think we’ll get a better idea after that of what they are prepared to do. Because I think it is the format of the play-offs which will be important, as well as the principle and the risk.

“I had a very encouraging meeting at the Professional Game Board of the SFA, which included Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan, last Wednesday. I was encouraged by the fact we all seemed to be getting round to how we make play-offs a viable proposition for next year. That’s all I’m thinking about at the moment.

“We discussed a number of changes we think we can bring in for next season that would take the game forward, on the basis that the SPL failed to vote through the recent reconstruction package. Our proposal was that play-offs should form part of next season’s competition as a widening and strengthening of the bridge between the SPL and the SFL.

“We also suggested that a pyramid structure could be in place by the end of season 2014-15, subject to the conditions below the SFL Division Three being appropriate for that with an amalgamation of the South and East of Scotland leagues.

“I still hope there will be a 42-club solution to this and I believe there can be.”

[thebiglemon]

Until they come up with a set that.....

• Eliminates playing the same teams 4 times a season
  
• Has 2 up and down from the top division + or- play-offs
  

then I'm simply not interested in this reconfiguration of the Titanic's deck chairs

 

Oh and I hear the SPL are insisting Thistle build a retractable roof by August or we won't be allowed into the top flight next season

[Lenziejag]

With Longmuirs statement out goes the notion that everybody wants the chance Scottish Football to be a better product. The main thing that was being proposed previously was a redistribution of wealth - but it was only going to the SFL1 clubs. Some SPL clubs didn't like the split idea and the fact that they would probably have 1 less game vs Celtic.

 

What this proposed resignation does is(if they are admitted to SPL organisation) allow for the same redistribution of wealth among those 10 teams and change the promotion/relegation issue to include some kind of playoff.

 

Pretty much the only fly in the ointment is the 1.8m settlement agreement between the SPL and the SFL

[mrD]

http://news.bbc.co.u...onf/7201054.stm

 

the way forward for any scottish team that ever wants a real chance to grow and thrive would be to: make an entry to the the northern league, step 5 on the pyramid, former home of gretna FC where currrently darlington are playing

 

http://www.northernleague.org/

 

Promotion to the Evo Stick North Division following season,

 

season afterwards Northern Premier Division - home of the Blyth Spartans, FC United etc

 

Hopefully get promotion a season or two after that to Conference North where there is probably more money in circulation than in Div 1 here which would serve as a good platform to getting into league 2 in a couple of seasons. Crowds and money are bigger there, and probably the same is the case for conference premier.

 

In total would take less than ten years and we'd be playing as a Glasgow team in the EFL - an attractive setting for attracting fans. Swansea and/or Cardiff scenarios a possibility from that..

Edited May 4, 2013 by mrD

[jaggy]

http://news.bbc.co.u...onf/7201054.stm

 

the way forward for any scottish team that ever wants a real chance to grow and thrive would be to: make an entry to the the northern league, step 5 on the pyramid, former home of gretna FC where currrently darlington are playing

 

http://www.northernleague.org/

 

Promotion to the Evo Stick North Division following season,

 

season afterwards Northern Premier Division - home of the Blyth Spartans, FC United etc

 

Hopefully get promotion a season or two after that to Conference North where there is probably more money in circulation than in Div 1 here which would serve as a good platform to getting into league 2 in a couple of seasons. Crowds and money are bigger there, and probably the same is the case for conference premier.

 

In total would take less than ten years and we'd be playing as a Glasgow team in the EFL - an attractive setting for attracting fans. Swansea and/or Cardiff scenarios a possibility from that..

we're a Scottish team in Scottish league, it's only old firm numpties that want to go to England

[peagreenboy]

Until they come up with a set that.....

• Eliminates playing the same teams 4 times a season
  
• Has 2 up and down from the top division + or- play-offs
  

 

What a shame those are the only two things the SPL don't want to change!

[Jaggernaut]

If there's to be SPL 1 and 2, then have a straight 2-up 2-down, AND a 3rd bottom vs. 3rd top play-off. That would keep it pretty interesting, with the likelihood of a reasonable turnover of teams every few seasons, which of course may be precisely what a number of clubs in the SPL don't want.

[kni]

http://news.bbc.co.u...onf/7201054.stm

 

the way forward for any scottish team that ever wants a real chance to grow and thrive would be to: make an entry to the the northern league, step 5 on the pyramid, former home of gretna FC where currrently darlington are playing

 

http://www.northernleague.org/

 

Promotion to the Evo Stick North Division following season,

 

season afterwards Northern Premier Division - home of the Blyth Spartans, FC United etc

 

Hopefully get promotion a season or two after that to Conference North where there is probably more money in circulation than in Div 1 here which would serve as a good platform to getting into league 2 in a couple of seasons. Crowds and money are bigger there, and probably the same is the case for conference premier.

 

In total would take less than ten years and we'd be playing as a Glasgow team in the EFL - an attractive setting for attracting fans. Swansea and/or Cardiff scenarios a possibility from that..

 

AFC Wimbledon, based in Kingston, have shown how it can be achieved. The club was formed by fans in 2002 after the Dons moved to Milton Keynes. It climbed from the Combined Counties Football Leagues (ninth tier) to League Two - won five promotions in 9 years.

[Lenziejag]

Does it say in those pyramid rules that teams can play out with England ?

[kni]

Does it say in those pyramid rules that teams can play out with England ?

 

Presumably yes as there are at least four Welsh clubs in the pyramid - Swansea City (EPL), Cardiff City (Championship champions) plus Wrexham and Newport County who are contesting the Conference play-off final.

[mrD]

Exactly there are welsh teams in the english pyramid.... its very telling that when offered the opportunity to join the welsh league when it was formed in 1990 none of them joined...

 

There is also the case of gretna who transferred their membership from the northern league under fa juristiction to the sfa, if it can happen in one direction surely there is enough of a legal loophole borne by precedence to allow for transfer in the other direction...

 

As for the person that said it is only 'old firm' numpties that want to do that, does this mean that any good idea if its thought of by the old firm shouldn't be done? Like say the old firm decided for us to 'give peace a chance' would peace be a bad thing because it came from their mouths.... Being a bit facesious there but i hope you get the point. The bottom line is, that the old firm want to move to the english leagues because their potential to grow is severley impeded in the scottish environment. Now obviously our analysis as non-old firm supporters would lay the blame at their door. But thats a moot point.

 

The same thing stands for us in terms of the football environment not being conducive to our development. Yet again we see how this piss poor provincial set up is being torn up which in no way presents a way forward for us or anybody else. Someone on this thread referrred to it as rearranging the deck chairs in the titanic. Now given the way things have been, the way things are going in the immediate term, can anybody concieve of a possible scenario where things will improve for the benefit of all participants in football?? No thought not. so why does it seem such a barmy thing to suggest that joining a much more healthy set up in the same nation state as us would be an idea worth considering???

 

Anyway id like to see for those who advocate the status quo what attractive qualities there are to remain in scottish football?

Edited May 4, 2013 by mrD

[Duke Gekantawa]

 

 

Presumably yes as there are at least four Welsh clubs in the pyramid - Swansea City (EPL), Cardiff City (Championship champions) plus Wrexham and Newport County who are contesting the Conference play-off final.

Welsh clubs are a historical anomaly, they entered the system when there was no Welsh league (UEFA rules allow teams to enter in another country's league when there is no viable home league (Monaco is another example)). I don't know Gretna's (or Berwick's) circumstances but suspect again that, in Berwick's case anyway, it is just maintaining the status quo, the decision to play in Scotland happening a long time ago.

 

Uefa are now very reluctant to allow new entries into other country's leagues as it sets a precedent for Portuguese, Austrian, Swiss and Belgian clubs who want to play in their neighbours bigger leagues.

[mrD]

Welsh clubs are a historical anomaly, they entered the system when there was no Welsh league (UEFA rules allow teams to enter in another country's league when there is no viable home league (Monaco is another example)). I don't know Gretna's (or Berwick's) circumstances but suspect again that, in Berwick's case anyway, it is just maintaining the status quo, the decision to play in Scotland happening a long time ago.

 

Uefa are now very reluctant to allow new entries into other country's leagues as it sets a precedent for Portuguese, Austrian, Swiss and Belgian clubs who want to play in their neighbours bigger leagues.

 

Absolutly true that there are significant legal barriers to be overcome. But there was this case called i think i the bosman case which made things change where there was a disconnect between employment statute and the rules of a sporting association. Likewise there is a disconnect that can be tried between EU market rules and barriers in football associations... The bottom line is that if you try all that can be said is no, and that gives an opportunity to reevaluate and try from a different angle. It worked for gretna, i dont know why, but its definately something worth looking at imo.

 

There is also historical precedent insofar as scottish clubs used to play in english competitions. Queens Park for instance...

 

Another factor to consider is this: one of the reasons that has stopped the old firm from really pursuing this is because the chances are they would have to go down to the bottom tiers and their running costs would be too high to make up the shortfall. Thats why the change of rangers going down to the third division with a clean slate probably makes that a more concievable scenario than ever before - it was certainly what charles greene was considering. But this is certainly where we have more of a competative advantage over the old firm in that our running costs are much smaller and much more congruent with the bottom levels of the pyramid.

 

Edited to add: as things stand we are also part of the same nation state as england. the same can't be said for portugese teams that want to go into spanish, belgian teams that want to go elsewhere too...

Edited May 4, 2013 by mrD

[kni]

There would be lots of English clubs (especially the smaller clubs in the EPL and big clubs in the Championship) who would oppose the Old Firm being allowed into the Football League. Then there are the memories of the Rangers fans' behaviour in Manchester... Add in the opposition of FIFA, UEFA, the Scottish football authorities, the Scottish government etc and it's clear that it won't happen in the foreseeable future.

[mrD]

Yip and so many of those factors (aside from the legal ones obviously) would not apply to us. If, hypthetically we did manage to go down that route, i could see us being a bigger team than either of the old firm in 15 years as the sole representatives of glasgow (maybe even scotland) in a league that has an international audience. Would be such a laugh

[Duke Gekantawa]

 

 

 

 

Edited to add: as things stand we are also part of the same nation state as england. the same can't be said for portugese teams that want to go into spanish, belgian teams that want to go elsewhere too...

For now anyway! Using this argument could lead to to the loss of the home nations special status, which of course is another historical anomaly

[mrD]

For now anyway! Using this argument could lead to to the loss of the home nations special status, which of course is another historical anomaly

totally. thats why we need to make an application now just in case a massive surge in support for independance happens

 

Theres another historical anomaly that could work for us. the special home nation status thing is very unpopular at FIFA and UEFA level.

 

Obviously for those of us who still enjoy all things tartan that would be worrisome. but team GB happened with womens football and scotland is still there not getting into any competitions... so maybe that fear isn't warranted.

Edited May 4, 2013 by mrD

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Not really for joining the English leagues but if they changed the set up and we stayed in the second tier then am all for it.

 

Reckon we could get to the conference north in no time. Might be slightly tougher after that.

 

Where would our place be tho, think we would struggling in league one area as there are a lot decent size clubs there. Money even at that level tho would be ridiculous. Probably offer more money to players than most spl teams and potential greater interest and sponsorship in the club.

 

Doubt it will happen but one can dream of getting Man U at firhill in the fa cup would be awesome.

[MerryHell]

They wouldn't have left with immediate (this summer) effect, would they? I was under the impression a notice period of a year or two was required.

It does seem a bit strange that the SFL1 teams have threatened to resign. The reconstruction proposals hadn't got to the SFL yet. Are they planning to go out on their own. Will we have 4 bodies next.

 

For me, all we need doing just now is league amalgamation, so there is one body overseeing all, and playoffs between top and second leagues. This would also mean the money should be split in a fairer fashion.

 

Everything else, including league sizes can follow at a later date.

 

SPL2 would set Scottish Football back and not improve anything - would just create a bigger mess.

[Jaggernaut]

There's an interesting thread on P&B just now, with somebody suggesting that all the SFL clubs need to do is agree that none of them will accept promotion to the SPL. The idea is that without any threat of relegation and promotion from and to the SPL it would soon die a death, even if they invited the defunctos back. It would cease to be even less of a true competition than it is in its current form.

 

So, in fact the SFL clubs, if they had the balls and a bit of negotiating nous, could have the SPL eating out of their hands.

[jagfox]

Interesting proposition i.e. joining English pyramid. We have competed in the EFA cup ourselves I'm sure.

There are 6 Welsh clubs in the English system. Swansea, c*rd*ff, Newporty County, Wrexham, Colwyn Bay and another that escapes my mind at the moment.

However below the Conference nearly every team is part-time. Crowds are pretty poor and even getting to the EFL means a land of milk and honey. Aldershot AFC have gone to the wall again recently and many teams play in crowds lower than at Firhill such as Morecombe and Fleetwood.

Obviously being from a large city with a decent catchment area we may fair better but I doubt it will happen unless there is a complete collapse of the league system up here.

I'm happy making a bit of cash out of the SPL for now. We are growing again as a club, whereas Sevco Scotland are dying again, whilst Celtic are reaping the benefits of CL money. Both are struggling to keep existing fans for league and domestic cup competitions so as businesses I can see why they may consider moving, although I will doubt it will happen anytime soon.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Just heard that the English FA are contemplating inviting the big two Glasgow clubs to join the English Leagues. Rangers are evidently seething at not getting an invite.