Just In -- Relegation Material

[sb1876]

Some decent constructive posts and some absolutely terrible comments and counter posts! I wasn't at yesterdays game although was at Aberdeen and we appear to be being outplayed with pace, skill and muscle, it's been said before that teams are letting us mince about with the ball in the midfield and then taking us on the break with stronger faster attacks (with decent support for the move).

 

Set pieces are not good enough - both attacking and defending and Dools is being isolated and asked to do everything himself. Most amazing is that for some folk this is all still Baird's fault! (and the new Baird - Piccolo who is now to blame for all ill's (even when he's been subbed!)) I appreciate that Piccolo has had his faults although was actually OK at Pittodrie and by the sounds of it wasn't the worst yesterday.

 

Most frustratingly we don't seem to have a plan B, either before kick off to change the way other managers are setting up against us now, or during the game when things are not going our way, pretty sure Archie and Shaggy can see that and will be working on sorting that out.

 

We have a proven 1st division team with really good footballers, some are SPFL standard and just need to get used to the different style and standard and some others who may just not be able to adapt consistently enough. Just my opinion but I'd rather be a Thistle fan than any other and whilst top 6 would be brilliant, playing decent football and hopefully staying in the league is what I'd rather pay my 20 odd quid to see and take my son along to.

Edited November 10, 2013 by sb1876

[Jaggernaut]

Just to clarify, as I may have missed something. Did we lose a game or is it the end of the world?

 

Not the end of the world, but we've just lost the sixth of our last nine games....... have only won one......

 

I'd say that we're not relegation material, but we're definitely in relegation form, and with little sign that things are going to improve in the games ahead.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Would love to say it always amuses me (but I feel far from amused after yesterday) when people on here look for complex reasons why we got gubbed. I honestly think yesterday was simply a case of too many having off days. Combine that with a stupid red card.and the non penalty and that's just about it.

The only other thing we may have learned is that there's substance to those who feel playing Bannigan, Osbourne and Welsh together is overkill. I thought that Bannigan looked far more suited to yesterday's role and the shape of the team that bit better with Lawless playing. However I could just be straw clutching.

[sabbath]

James Craigen has the potential to be our, and wait for it, Kenny Dalglish. I feel Jamesie boy definitely has what it takes, but he’s got to get in there and command the ball and stop waving his arms about like a wee Jessie. I spoke to Craigen and said to him this is his season, but all I’ve seen so far is back passes and square balls. If he can’t work on his game he will go the same road as so many others. The beloved Dools, he’s called the beloved because he has scored 5 goals, remember Scott Maclean, in the lower leagues he scored for fun but as we came up it was literally a different ball game. The beloved one missed 3 open goals against Dundee, the same again against Killie and we whole country knows what happen against the Hi-Bees, 9 points. His job is to score goals and take the pressure off the defence because of this we struggle. We urgently need an experienced scorer at this level and cut out the sentiment.

[One t in Scotland]

James Craigen has the potential to be our, and wait for it, Kenny Dalglish.

More like Kelly Dalglish I fear.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

James Craigen has the potential to be our, and wait for it, Kenny Dalglish. I feel Jamesie boy definitely has what it takes, but he’s got to get in there and command the ball and stop waving his arms about like a wee Jessie. I spoke to Craigen and said to him this is his season, but all I’ve seen so far is back passes and square balls. If he can’t work on his game he will go the same road as so many others. The beloved Dools, he’s called the beloved because he has scored 5 goals, remember Scott Maclean, in the lower leagues he scored for fun but as we came up it was literally a different ball game. The beloved one missed 3 open goals against Dundee, the same again against Killie and we whole country knows what happen against the Hi-Bees, 9 points. His job is to score goals and take the pressure off the defence because of this we struggle. We urgently need an experienced scorer at this level and cut out the sentiment.

 

So we're stuck with Doolan out of sentiment. Who do you have in mind we can bring in with this experience at this level? Any names on the tip of your tongue?

[sabbath]

Just to clarify, as I may have missed something. Did we lose a game or is it the end of the world?

Its the end of the world mate

[sabbath]

So we're stuck with Doolan out of sentiment. Who do you have in mind we can bring in with this experience at this level? Any names on the tip of your tongue?

I feel we missed an opportunity, instead of Baird and Kerr, goals was the priority. I feel our defence is as sound as anything else the premier league has to offer but if we can’t take some pressure off then it don’t look to good. If I had more time I would scour the English leagues or secure at least a loan but was that not Archie’s job. It may be said that Baird was a striker but that was only his agent. talking

[read'n'yell]

Picollo can't start again, for a centre back he gives an uncomforting presence. Don't know what we expected from a guy playing in Spains regional leagues - for a team relegated!

 

Thought Bannigan was back to his best in the first half, then did nothing in the second - but still encouraging. Craigen had a quiet game, as did Lawless in the second half. Higginbotham by far our best player yet again, he must be annoyed clearly capable of more and on the losing team. Sinclair was also quite quiet but did well enough. Thought O'Donnell didn't add much and McMillan has a real chance of being our permanent right back, feel he could potentionally add more to the team. Osbourne usual self.

 

Fox HAS to learn to come for cross balls, teams are scoring far far too easy from crosses into the box. Also this is the fourth time in recent weeks he hasn't came out for the ball properly and allowed for an easy goal. Why did he stop at the second goal? As soon as he stopped his run it was a goal.

 

Teams are scoring far too easily and it's becoming a joke. People must love playing against us, gifting goals away.

 

Doolan has a decent scoring record but I really don't think he contributes enough to merit a starting berth. We need a striker in January. If we had Boyd upfront we would of got a goal in the first half. Doolan tries his best, and does ok but its not enough. Also feel this is how our midfielders aren't scoring because Doolan doesn't take much marking so there is always plenty people back. That also bring onto the next point of us bringing the ball out so slowly that teams always have their full defence back. Barely any goals are scored from open play with the defence all back. You have to catch them on the break or be able to score from set pieces, and we can't do the second.

 

Why Picollo played, only Archie will know. Also why Elliot came on so early, only Archie will know. We started the second half well and I think a goal was coming, then Elliot changed the way the game went. He's defiintely a 10 min from end type of guy. Forbes hasn't had much of a chance but then didnt do much to push his way into the team after coming on.

 

Danny Lennon summed it up pretty well in his interview. You can't keep baking the same cake every week or people will suss you out. We need an alternative plan or that play off place is ours. I always thought we will rue the points dropped to Hibs Hearts Kilmarnock but now I think thats just going to be this season. Huge win for St Mirren and credit to them, play crap football, defend and you will win against us. Clearly why scottish football is so poor but its whats needed to stay in the top flight.

 

Our style has far too thin a line between working and not working. We can only use the excuse of playing nice football for so long, while I want us to continue it, we need to wisen up.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

 

I feel we missed an opportunity, instead of Baird and Kerr, goals was the priority. I feel our defence is as sound as anything else the premier league has to offer but if we can’t take some pressure off then it don’t look to good. If I had more time I would scour the English leagues or secure at least a loan but was that not Archie’s job. It may be said that Baird was a striker but that was only his agent. talking

 

 

Fair enough but I believe there's a strong possibility that this striker we require is mythical. We're always being told that wages in the lower English leagues far exceed what the SPL have to offer. Relatively big earning SPL players leaving Scotland for rather obcure English clubs more or less backs this up. So we'd end up looking for this striker at a level not much above the level we got Elliott from. I'm not saying there isn't a guy out there that is better than Doolan that we could afford and would want to join Thistle. I certainly doubt a club with our limited scouting structure will be likely to unearth such a beast.

While it could be true that lack of goals can create added pressure for our defence the same thing is true in reverse. Poor defending draws midfielders deeper isolating the attacker/striker. I'm not criticising our defence but I can't honestly agree they are as sound as the SPL has to offer. They do tho' have the potential to be more than good enough at the current level they're playing. Unless you think our defence is adept at defending corners and free kicks then I can't see where blame can be laid at Doolan's door. There is a case of having a big centre forward that is extra helpful defending set pieces but they're few and far between.

btw as for Kerr and Baird I've never thought of them as any more than squad players so feel they're inclusion for criticism is largely irrelevant.

[Third Lanark]

The morning after, a few thoughts.

 

No squad depth.

 

We have an ok first XI as was proved vs ICT & Celtic. The Aberdeen game was a bit of a disaster & a bit much to blame Piccolo for a 4-0 defeat but it demonstrates a point.

 

Piccolo looked like a panic buy. We had umpteen trialists coming through the door in the Summer & we sign one right as the season is beginning as we have no CH cover. The lad comes in, decent CV, speaks English, shows up ok in a bounce game & we offer him a contract. As time goes on he looks as though he'd be out his depth in Div 1 never mind Premier.

 

Lawless came in yesterday with the opportunity to prove doubters wrong & instead confirmed then. Compare Lawless to Higginbotham yesterday (in fact through the season so far). Higginbotham gets the ball turns & looks to drive at the opposition or pick a pass. All to often Lawless gets the ball with his back to goal & immediately lays it off first touch back the way. Couple of runs he did make yesterday were balls played ahead of him but I truthfully can't remember him beating a player.

 

Then we look at squad depth & bench players.

 

The clamour for Forbes always surprises me. At times last season, he could best be described as looking as disinterested at times & at worst just plain lazy. Set pieces aside can anyone tell me what he contributes. Doesn't have the work rate & as my grandad would say, he can't tackle a fish supper!!

 

Elliot can run & run but the shout yesterday 'Run Forrest, Run' sums it up for me.

 

Bear in mind neither of these guys were starters in 1st Div & yet we have people wanting them to start in the SPFL.

 

Then we have Baird who ticked all the boxes for us. Played in SPL, scored a few goals, free transfer. Enough said.

 

After that we have Kerr who was obviously signed to play the Osbourne role before we managed to get Osbourne!!

 

Mukendi....

 

Jordan McMillan been unlucky with injuries & will get his chance vs DU I'm sure especially with SOD suspended but a good performance from him could see SOD almost having to do a Bannigan in the sense of finding a place in the team even if it's not his best position as he's one of the best XI at the club!

 

Now before anyone comes back & says I'm being negative. I don't lay the blame entirely on the management team. With the results after they took over they 100% had to be appointed BUT at the same time the BOD should've realised that Archie & co don't have the same contacts in the game as a certain J McNamara & as such this should've been addressed the moment we got promoted.

 

No scouting system in place meant that we had to rely on 100 trialists knocking our door & then having to see if they were good enough without even knowing them!

 

Of course you're going to sign Kerr & Baird as what other options did we have? No money in the pot, no scouting system to I.D. players so you go with who you know & what you know.

 

The BOD are as culpable for yesterday's performance as any player or coach at the club.

 

True that we probably got promoted ahead of whatever plan was in place & credit has to go to the players, Archie &, grudgingly, McNamara, for that achievement BUT to go to the end of the transfer window replacing the players that have left- Dowie, Paton, Erskine & Craig with Piccolo, Osbourne, Kerr & Baird probably shows you why we're starting to struggle.

 

I know we had to bring in an u20 team but that doesn't excuse the fact that Archie & co we're let down by BOD.

 

What Archie & co have to take responsibility for, as was evident yesterday, is the lack of a plan B or even C. Teams are realising that our main threats are SOD & ATS & if they can shut them down then the straight balls don't work & a lot is falling onto Higginbotham's shoulders to create.

 

The aim is still 10th & if we can keep the XI that played vs ICT & Celtic then we should be ok but bringing in a couple in January will help that tremendously. How, who & where from is another matter if there's no scouting system in place!!

 

Rant over.

Lawless was one of our best players yesterday, never gave up and yes he managed to hold the ball up with at times 3-4 St Mirren players around him. The problem with he was getting no support from others. Also he has scored more goals this season than Forbes, Bannigan, Craigen and the rest of the midfield put together

[lewcal]

Not sure if this is me making a rash,knee-jerk reaction to yet another painful defeat but I feel it might be time to put our neat passing style of play on ice, just for a while. People can go on all day about playing the "right" way but when you're losing games(to poor teams)and looking toothless in attack the only direction we're going,at present, is down. I give big Archie and the club credit for sticking to their philosophy and I really don't want to go back to the defensive thistle teams of not so long ago but surely there is a style we can play that is somewhere in between. It simply isn't working and things need to change.

[proudjag]

Not sure if this is me making a rash,knee-jerk reaction to yet another painful defeat but I feel it might be time to put our neat passing style of play on ice, just for a while. People can go on all day about playing the "right" way but when you're losing games(to poor teams)and looking toothless in attack the only direction we're going,at present, is down. I give big Archie and the club credit for sticking to their philosophy and I really don't want to go back to the defensive thistle teams of not so long ago but surely there is a style we can play that is somewhere in between. It simply isn't working and things need to change.

 

This. I've been thinking exactly the same. Surely we all recall the wee spell just after Archie took over where we were stuffy n disciplined n saw out a good few one nils.

 

I'm almost sure this kind of approach would do the trick just to settle us a bit n get some much needed points on the board. I'm not saying resort to kick n rush but let's be a little more conservative n dig in a bit more.

[allyo]

Anyone watch MOTD last night? Both Norwich and Aston villa been struggling, couldn't score a goal. Confidence rock bottom. Both of them got a goal, came out and immediately scored another, won the game. Confidence is everything. Our has team looked comfortably capable in the premier league in every game up until Monday. And every pundit has said it. And now our OWN FANS on this forum are determined to insist that we're not good enough, we're out of our depth, we're going down. And to BLAME a management team and players who comfortably won the first division and have been a credit in most games since.

 

Sure, it's frustrating, and everyone involved with Thistle will share the frustration. There's work to be done. But if confidence is a key factor, which I think it is, then the attitude of many people on this forum, if shared by the wider support in general, will be the most destructive thing happening to Thistle at the moment.

[Lenziejag]

Anyone watch MOTD last night? Both Norwich and Aston villa been struggling, couldn't score a goal. Confidence rock bottom. Both of them got a goal, came out and immediately scored another, won the game. Confidence is everything. Our has team looked comfortably capable in the premier league in every game up until Monday. And every pundit has said it. And now our OWN FANS on this forum are determined to insist that we're not good enough, we're out of our depth, we're going down. And to BLAME a management team and players who comfortably won the first division and have been a credit in most games since.

 

Sure, it's frustrating, and everyone involved with Thistle will share the frustration. There's work to be done. But if confidence is a key factor, which I think it is, then the attitude of many people on this forum, if shared by the wider support in general, will be the most destructive thing happening to Thistle at the moment.

 

Have AV and Norwich just kept doing the same thing and hoped that things would change or have they been proactive in making changes? How long should we go on before changing. I think that the confidence took a real kicking at Aberdeen, in the players and the supporters, as it doesn't seem like we are learning how to get results in this league and that is what is important. It is time to try and make us hard to beat.

 

 

[Jaggernaut]

Have AV and Norwich just kept doing the same thing and hoped that things would change or have they been proactive in making changes? How long should we go on before changing. I think that the confidence took a real kicking at Aberdeen, in the players and the supporters, as it doesn't seem like we are learning how to get results in this league and that is what is important. It is time to try and make us hard to beat.

 

Yes. I'm thinking that every other team in the division must now look upon us as about the easiest 3 points they'll get, and it has to be said that in the last 2 months we've done little to persuade them otherwise.

 

St Mirren were so rank yesterday that even when they were 1-0 up and and with an extra man, they packed all eleven players into defence when we had corners. If they'd left 2 up front we'd have needed three to cover them. Can't fault them for their eventual win, but they were about the poorest team (along with Hibs) that we've played at Firhill this season.

 

When does a run of "bad days at the office" or "bad luck" turn into something more serious?

[ForeverandEver]

All I will say is, 1 win in the last 9 matches. If that isn't relegation material then I don't know what is!

 

It's all good saying that we play great football but at the end of the day, football is a results business. Goals win you games, not pretty football!

 

Archie needs to change something in the side and fast!

[young_brodie]

Disagree, and plenty players don't have an aerial presence, at all levels of the game.

 

Doolan's height only an issue due to lack of support from Mids.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

It's all good saying that we play great football but at the end of the day, football is a results business. Goals win you games, not pretty football!

 

Are you reading from a book of clichés?

 

Surely the success or failure of just about every business imaginable is determined by results? Indeed football may just be an exception. The "business" if measured by profit might thrive better if we were involved in relegation fixtures rather than playing less meaningful mid table games

 

I think I'd be safe in saying we wouldn't have got promoted if it wasn't for goals and they came about thru playing a certain style of football not despite of it. If you think once job was done last season we should abandon that style of football to simply survive in this league, fair enough. It's not an opinion I would share but if I did I'd have started with a much altered squad packed with affordable SPL journeymen whose chief ability is,I'll be kind, to play a pragmatic brand of football

Edited November 10, 2013 by lady-isobel-barnett

[eljaggo]

I think the a major problem is the slow build-up that allows teams to get defenders behind the ball. Another striker (however tall) will not solve the problem unless we fundamentally change our tactics to a high ball approach - which few on here want. What I think is needed are midfielders who can get past defenders at speed to give another attacking option (through the middle of the park) to the one-dimensional wing back play we currently use to send in fruitless crosses to packed defences. It should be easier to recruit such midfielders than an effective striker.

[read'n'yell]

We need a physical presence up front to worry their defense and this will make space for our advanced midfield players. At the moment they are allowed to keep a straight back line far too easily.

[Stewarty]

Not sure if this is me making a rash,knee-jerk reaction to yet another painful defeat but I feel it might be time to put our neat passing style of play on ice, just for a while. People can go on all day about playing the "right" way but when you're losing games(to poor teams)and looking toothless in attack the only direction we're going,at present, is down. I give big Archie and the club credit for sticking to their philosophy and I really don't want to go back to the defensive thistle teams of not so long ago but surely there is a style we can play that is somewhere in between. It simply isn't working and things need to change.

 

A passing game and defensive solidity are not mutually exclusive. I do agree that we need more of the latter, and having only one full-back bombing forward at any time is probably wise, but what's the alternative to our passing game? Hoofing it up to Doolan or Baird isn't likely to work. What we need to work on is our composure in and around the box. Whenever we get near the opposition goal our players start doing impressions of moose wearing iceskates. A few more long shots to draw out the defenders wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[stillresigned]

Having calmed down a wee bit I think I can now comment on yesterday's game without resorting to expletives. The first thing I'll say is that over the ninety minutes we didn't play that badly. Unfortunately, some of our players are going to have to learn to sink or swim and quickly. I'm not going to rush into a wholesale demolition of the management or of the team I can see no point or indeed justification for it. Not that I'm not annoyed that yet again we've let three points slip through our fingers, how many points have we flung away so far this season I make it 12 easily. What worried me most yesterday was that at no point, if I'm honest and despite my genuine appreciation of our play, did I think we would score. That speaks to a bit of a morale problem within the squad and I'm afraid that for their sakes they'll need to sort themselves out and quickly. To those of you, crying out for a change of tactics, I'd just like to ask what apart from getting more midfielders to support Doolan and stamping out schoolboy errors like the defending for the first goal, do we actually want or expect Archie to do. We can't sign anyone till January and let's be honest we're not exactly drowning in cash, so I wouldn't hold out too much hope of signing this much longed for, but scarcely known new forward. In simple terms I'm afraid that we'll sink or swim with our current squad, so I'm not going to waste my breath slagging off my own team. Alternatively we could all pray and hope for a miracle and a new centre forward will appear outside Firhill on Christmas Day, but in my experience miracles are thin on the ground, especially in Maryhill! In short its the same now as its always been for us Jags supporters i.e. struggle interposed by the odd season or seasons of relatives success.

[thistlenowthistleforever]

It's amazing the amount off people blaming up front. From midfield back we are woeful except for fox

 

 

if you watch the midfield they don't even pass up the park they pass across

Edited November 10, 2013 by thistlenowthistleforever

[Metz]

Lawless was one of our best players yesterday, never gave up and yes he managed to hold the ball up with at times 3-4 St Mirren players around him. The problem with he was getting no support from others. Also he has scored more goals this season than Forbes, Bannigan, Craigen and the rest of the midfield put together

This smacks of someone who is blind to the facts and loyal to the individual concerned as they have fond memories. Sure Lawless was ok yesterday but like many others didn't contribute anything positive, don't try and pass this off as everyone else's fault. He has failed to make an impact and if he took a leaf out of Higgies book and was more direct he may be more effective, I don't think he is capable of this but wait for him to up his game and try it and prove me wrong. Nothing would make me happier, a new Andy Lyons would be fine by me.