theestle Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 A very expensive day out (£53) once more resulted in a bad result. No point mentioning anything about James Craigen that hasn't been mentioned before. Bewildering it took so long for the Elliot/ Banigan switch - Banigan had already been 'done over' by the Moherwell winger twice previously before the penalty incident. The late decision was a bit like buying a house alarm after the burglary. Taking Stevenson off was another bad decision. At least he has presence and is impactful. Doolan is more a ghost into the the box merchant and is not suited to breaking teams down by bossing the box. I fully understand that Higgy isn’t as effective as last season but he is still one of our best players and still has the ability to beat a man and get a decent delivery sent in. As I have mentioned in previous dispatches Thistle are a one dimensional team who’s forte is scoring on the break. Once Motherwell parked the bus we had no chance of breaking them down. That 2 weeks in a row I have had to endure us getting very little from 2 teams a lot worse than us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 As for the manager's hands being tied... He signed a left back in Carroll then sent out a young left back who'd already played in the first team on loan. He was given the support of the BoD & brought in Seabourne, Osman, Stevenson along with a striker he was insistent was required in Ecclestone & Carroll. The 2 positions we needed most to fill were LB & CF. These guys won't have come cheap but have seen little or no game time. The manager has a system he wants to play & sticks rigidly to it. Stevenson was never brought in as a CF so why not play him where he was brought in to play? If he was bought as a CF then why chase another one through transfer window until eventually get Ecclestone? He only plays one through the middle so surely Doolan & Stevenson with utility man Elliot as cover? Where are the plan B tactics the manager himself said they'd be working on during pre season? As for subs... Predictable as in around 65/70 minutes he takes off one CF for another but system doesn't ever change if we're losing, drawing ior winning. "Let's see where we are at the end of Jan" Then what? If same thing happens & we're still playing same system, dropping points, playing players out of position & playing players who are not at their best whilst others gaining on us. Is that the right time to air these thoughts? Is Archie allowed to make mistakes, he is human after all and Carroll hasn't worked out. We sent a left back out in loan who many forum experts deemed not yet good enough for the first team. Carroll has been good in places, but other times has shown to be naive. McMillan is our best left back, he's suffered with injury. Archie watches these players every day in training, he sees every player and sees who is best suited to fit in the formation he wants to play. He deems Stevenson to be best suited and Eccleston to be the third choice. No amount of forum posters hoping that Archie will take a chance and throw Eccleston in will change that. It's not your career at stake. It really is of little consequence where Stevenson was brought in to play. Archie has deemed Stevensom to be the best option he has up front. I can see why he deems that to be the case. As I've said many times, we have used loads of different tactics, depending on who we are playing. To suggest we are one dimensional and don't change is disrespectful to the players and manager. The subs yes, I can see where the issue is with that, but the formation changes every game depending in whether we attack or defend or maintain possession. Get over it, Archie's formation is 4231. He sees that as the formation to reach his target, right now I'd be surprised if we are not on target to meet start of season expectations. So why change it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 (edited) A serious question. I asked last night when we stop 'consolidating' & look to move on like a St Johnstone or an ICT. We stay up this year & it's Hearts & possibly Hibs or Rangers that come up. Failing that & only Hearts come up then the potential if meeting the aforementioned teams is there the following season also... So when do we stop 'consolidating'? Our budget if what I've heard is correct should have us finishing at least 8th... Stop consolidating? We're only in our second season in the top division for Christ sake! It's all very well having expectations as a fan, but what do you think as a fan our oppositions expectations were? All with a wealth of top division experience. Say you naturally expect Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, Motherwell and Caley to be the top 5 at the start of the season, due to historical finishes... What do you think St Johnstone, Killie Ross County and St Mirrens fans expectations were? Edited December 28, 2014 by potty trained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Many good points being made on this thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 We've done this before but indulge me. How many times in the last 70 years has Partick Thistle finished in top 6 of the top league? How often over that period have we finished above Rangers or Hearts or Hibs? How many of the other sides this season have you thought...they're a better team than us? How many teams have you thought...they have better players than us? How many managers of the other clubs in the top League would you prefer to Archie as our manager? I'm struggling to reach six for all of these. The understandable frustration of the fans is that we can all see the potential for Thistle to be doing better than we are. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillresigned Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 How often over that period have we finished above Rangers or Hearts or Hibs? How many of the other sides this season have you thought...they're a better team than us? How many teams have you thought...they have better players than us? How many managers of the other clubs in the top League would you prefer to Archie as our manager? I'm struggling to reach six for all of these. The understandable frustration of the fans is that we can all see the potential for Thistle to be doing better than we are. Quite a few sensible points masde here and I wholeheartedly concur. I would like to add that tactical criticism of the manager should not be construed as a treasonable offence. For example, if ever a game called for a more offensive line up it was yesterday, yet what did we get same old, same old! The real frustration is that we have had loads of opportunities to pull away from the bottom and frankly haven't been good enough to take them, to add insult to injury our next 4 games could quite conceivably see us failing to add to ouroints tally!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a f kincaid Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 How often over that period have we finished above Rangers or Hearts or Hibs? How many of the other sides this season have you thought...they're a better team than us? How many teams have you thought...they have better players than us? How many managers of the other clubs in the top League would you prefer to Archie as our manager? I'm struggling to reach six for all of these. The understandable frustration of the fans is that we can all see the potential for Thistle to be doing better than we are. Can't answer all your questions but can say that:- Since 1921/22 when automatic promotion/relegation was introduced (and only when Thistle were in the top division), they have finished 6th or better 15 times. None of these seasons saw Thistle finish higher than Rangers but on 6 occasions they finished higher than Celtic... 29/30 46/47 47/48 50/51 51/52 62/63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Can't answer all your questions but can say that:- Since 1921/22 when automatic promotion/relegation was introduced (and only when Thistle were in the top division), they have finished 6th or better 15 times. None of these seasons saw Thistle finish higher than Rangers but on 6 occasions they finished higher than Celtic... 29/30 46/47 47/48 50/51 51/52 62/63 Jeez, 50 years since our last top six finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 The Carroll situation is out of the manager's control. The player won't play for us again. It'll all come out eventually. The first target has to be consolidation. Then we see how we go. Given that we have finished 6th or above 15 times in 90 years, I think it's unlikely to demand that. As an aspiration? Fair enough. Not a yardstick to measure the team by. To those of you who want two up front, another question. How many teams playing in top divisions in Europe, play two strikers? You are like those old guys that used to demand two wingers. Or inside forwards.Two strikers and we would be absolutely murdered in midfield. Demanding two up front only serves to prove ignorance on a wholesale level. Be happy with what you've got. It won't last long. History tells us that. Not just just the history of Partick Thistle. The history of every provincial club in Scotland since the late 1960's. Then again, most of you know that. It's just that you chose not to recall it. You'd rather slag of the guy who has produced one of the best footballing Thistle teams since the early 70's. I think I'm done. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Col Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 One of the best football teams - really? I assume we're not including yesterday's game or the previous game against Dundee? Or Kilmarnock? Or St Mirren? No shots on target yesterday says it all. I Don't have all the answers and maybe 2 up wouldn't work. But what's being tried currently isn't working and change is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Jeez, 50 years since our last top six finish. Not quite - that's since we last finished above Celtic. We finished 5th in 1976/77 - we had just been promoted...and finished above both Hearts and Hibs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 I am struggling to understand how some think we haven't made progress. This time last season we were 10th with 15 points. 4 points ahead of 2nd bottom and 10 behind 6th. This season we are 9th. 9 points ahead of 2nd bottom and 9 behind 6th. To me that is progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 I am struggling to understand how some think we haven't made progress. This time last season we were 10th with 15 points. 4 points ahead of 2nd bottom and 10 behind 6th. This season we are 9th. 9 points ahead of 2nd bottom and 9 behind 6th. To me that is progress. For goodness sake don't bring facts in to the discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Not quite - that's since we last finished above Celtic. We finished 5th in 1976/77 - we had just been promoted...and finished above both Hearts and Hibs. So let's get this straight. The last time we finished in the top six was 38 years ago. We're currently nine points adrift of 6th place and we're underachieving. Well, I suppose strictly speaking using the 1977 yardstick that's true. But if this is underachieving what's then the word to describe where we've been for the vast majority of the past 38 seasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jukebox Rebel Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Just to keep a couple of points straight... We finished above Rangers in 1953/54. We last finished Top 6 in 1981. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a f kincaid Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Just to keep a couple of points straight... We finished above Rangers in 1953/54. We last finished Top 6 in 1981. My mistake JBR. We did indeed finish 3rd and Rangers were 4th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewarty Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Seriously, are we still having the two up front debate? Football tactics have moved on, people, and the solution to a poor result isn't to switch to an outmoded formation or to play three central strikers, as somone was suggesting on another thread. It's as though the spirit of Mike Bassett is haunting this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Gums Murphy Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 (edited) Is Archie allowed to make mistakes, he is human after all and Carroll hasn't worked out. We sent a left back out in loan who many forum experts deemed not yet good enough for the first team. Carroll has been good in places, but other times has shown to be naive. McMillan is our best left back, he's suffered with injury. Archie watches these players every day in training, he sees every player and sees who is best suited to fit in the formation he wants to play. He deems Stevenson to be best suited and Eccleston to be the third choice. No amount of forum posters hoping that Archie will take a chance and throw Eccleston in will change that. It's not your career at stake. It really is of little consequence where Stevenson was brought in to play. Archie has deemed Stevensom to be the best option he has up front. I can see why he deems that to be the case. As I've said many times, we have used loads of different tactics, depending on who we are playing. To suggest we are one dimensional and don't change is disrespectful to the players and manager. The subs yes, I can see where the issue is with that, but the formation changes every game depending in whether we attack or defend or maintain possession. Get over it, Archie's formation is 4231. He sees that as the formation to reach his target, right now I'd be surprised if we are not on target to meet start of season expectations. So why change it? Stop consolidating? We're only in our second season in the top division for Christ sake! It's all very well having expectations as a fan, but what do you think as a fan our oppositions expectations were? All with a wealth of top division experience. Say you naturally expect Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, Motherwell and Caley to be the top 5 at the start of the season, due to historical finishes... What do you think St Johnstone, Killie Ross County and St Mirrens fans expectations were? So the manager didn't know a year past in August that Sinclair off to pastures new & we'd need a new full back? McMillan's time with us has been blighted with injury but if he's our best left back as you say, then who is our cover for right back? I don't doubt that the manager sees them everyday in training but Stevenson not an out & out striker as his career stats show. That said if he thinks he's the man to lead the line why then did he bring in a 3rd striker last day of the window? Do you think we need 3/4 strikers in his preferred formation that myself & others have to 'get over'? As for different formations employed.... Must've missed them. I'm missed a couple of games pre-season so that'll explain it probably. As for consolidation, the fans are entitled to ask that question. Already this season we've seen ST prices increase but if you're spending more on the team then that can't be grudged.... However if you're spending more on the team then you want to see improvements on the park. 3 of our last 5 league games we've failed to have a shot on target, even the most fervent Archibald supporter has to admit that that's a concern. Edited to add: by formation changes I mean using our subs to try have a different effect on the game. You agreed the subs are a concern. I'd have been gutted to lose another last minute goal vs Dundee but believe it or not I'd have been a little more accepting of it if I could have seen the manager trying to take the sting out the game by using last 2 subs or to even put an extra man in at the back. The frustration happens when you see other teams throw the kitchen sink at us to get the equaliser/winner but we stay in our rigid shape. Edited December 28, 2014 by Bleeding Gums Murphy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simoncordiner Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Saying "yeah it's blame Craigen time again" are stupid. Craigen is absolutely part of the problem. When he plays, we have a blunt attack. It's no coincidence when Lawless came on the game changed. Craigen should be nowhere near the starting line up. If he plays. We don't score anough goals. I'm totally bewildered that guy gets a shirt. Why not play Stevenson in the attacking midfield with Doolan up front? When Craigen plays we're just flat up front. Sick of it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 The fact is that neither Craigen and Elliott couldn't hold down a starting place in our first division team so it's no wonder they are out their depth with the likes of Balatoni and Bannigan struggling to make a mark. I didn't think Elliott would come back from Albion Rovers never mind start games in the Premiership. Craigen is Scotland's hide and seek champion. Mind you he played well against Celtic a year ago so he should be in the team every week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Col Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Exactly - Part of the problem, not the whole problem. The way some folk go on you would think that dropping Craigen would automatically resolve everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theestle Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 'You'd rather slag of the guy who has produced one of the best footballing Thistle teams since the early 70's' I have paid £90 admission fees over 2 games and this does not justify me complaining about the management despite 2 bad performances and 2 poor results. If I buy a Big Mac for a fiver and don't like it I'm allowed to complain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow & Redneck Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Seems I’ve calmed down sufficiently, I thought I’d give my two cents. As I said yesterday, in the last 180 minutes of SPL football, we have not tested a goalkeeper once, both yesterday and at Firhill against Dundee. It simply isn’t good enough. People keep going back to the game against Inverness as an indication of just how good we can be. However taking a game in isolation with an above average Jags performance, and a well below average Inverness CT performance has to be factored into the displays over the entire season (although the ICT game was one of the first that Craigen was dropped from the team). And the facts are these, we are a couple of points better off this season in a much lower quality top-flight in the absence of Hibs and Hearts. Not the improvement or top-six accruement that Archie constantly goes on about. Yesterday we set up predictably and paid the price. Elliot cannot cross…at all! Not one of his crosses beat the first man. Higgy is off the pace and the numerous free kicks he had were floated into the goalkeeper’s hands. Bannigan was a headless chicken, constantly beaten for pace and skill by his Motherwell opponent, and won’t pull the trigger when he gets the chance. I won’t have a go at Osman as yesterday was probably the only poor display he has put in all season. Stevenson was furious at being hooked and he showed it. For the second week in a row our best player has been pulled off for a predictable Archie sub. Stevenson isn’t a CF, and should be played behind Doolan. Lawless did well when he came on, and the poor guy must wonder what he has to do to get a start in this team. Let’s get something clear before the “We-Love-Archie-Unconditionally Brigade” have a go at me. I am not calling for the manager’s head, I am not suggesting that he is sacked and I am not suggesting he steps down. What I am saying is that he is still tactically naïve and predictable and that is my problem. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Archibald has made mistakes, which is fine but has he learned anything from them? I don't see it. Still the same poor substitutions, still conceding last minute goals, still trying the same single ineffective way to break teams down. Stevenson being hooked yesterday was ludicrous with us chasing the game. It's frustrating watching this team as we have the players to be higher but we don't have an experienced manager that can organise them better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Archibald has made mistakes, which is fine but has he learned anything from them? I don't see it. Still the same poor substitutions, still conceding last minute goals, still trying the same single ineffective way to break teams down. Stevenson being hooked yesterday was ludicrous with us chasing the game. It's frustrating watching this team as we have the players to be higher but we don't have an experienced manager that can organise them better. And which experienced manager are you thinking of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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