javeajag Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I was struck watching Liverpool play - with the same players Rodgers had - how Klopp has imposed his style of play on his team This led to a reflection that I'm not really sure what our system is and how Archie wants us to play .... It seems to be 4 2 3 1 or sometimes 4 1 4 1 ....the passing game has reduced, we don't really press high, we are not really a counter attacking team......I think this is part of the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firhillista Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) We normally play a 4-2-3-1 system with the two centre backs and the two holding midfielders keeping their positions and the other players encouraged to be as mobile as they can, the 2 fullbacks getting up and down the line and the other 4 attackers moving interchangably up front. It's a very flexible system which has served us well in the past, but because of the change in personnel, it hasn't worked as well this season, mainly because of an inability of the 4 attackers to achieve the kind of mobility we've seen in the past. The manager has tried to rectify the problem by reducing the holding midfielder to one and pushing the other 2 midfielders forward, but that obviously makes the team more vulnerable to attack. The problem as I see it is all about personnel: Higginbotham and Taylor provided mobility in the system, Amoo and Pogba don't. I don't think Pogba is as slow as some people think. He's a big man and he can cover the ground when he puts his mind to it. His recent comments suggest to me that he's not prepared to put in the graft the role requires, unlike Doolan, say. Amoo may be up for the job, but he will have to adjust his play. I still think the only way out of our problems is not a radical change of system, but the addition of some quality personnel. Which is why I'm not optimistic... Edited November 3, 2015 by Firhillista Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Col Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Agreed. We can't afford to bring in more players so we need to get the best out of what we have. Which means a new formation and a new gameplan, or a new management team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firhillista Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Not more players, just different ones. Let's face it, Pogba wasn't the manager's first choice, but he thought it might work: it hasn't, release Pogba in January and get a better quality replacement. If the board want us to stay up, thy need to back the manager. I honestly don't see changing the formation as the answer and as for changing the management team, as I observed a couple of weeks ago, when our rivals did just that there wasn't a single name which came up in the process that made me think, I wish he was in charge at Firhill. Archibald can turn it around, but he needs support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Seems ironic that Archie is constantly criticised for sticking to the same gameplan, apparently completely sussed by every opponent, yet at the same time people are unable to identify how we play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Just a general point and it kinda links into my post on the JC thread about repetitive fixtures. I don't think the actual formation is ever at fault but each team playing us knows what system we play mostly because they've played against us so often. I feel where we're at fault sometimes is more to do with flexibility. Things like when to press higher up the pitch or soak up pressure. Wingers switching flanks more often. And my pet grievance, central midfielders getting ahead of the striker far more regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry gaz Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 The central midfield thing does me in completely. Archie seems to have such an obsession with attacking down the flanks he's almost completely neglected the midfield getting into the box .It means also that when a cross does come in the forward is inevitably out numbered too . How many goals have we conceded with the opposition running directly at us into the box when our only attacking option is invariably a big high floaty cross. Was Edwards not signed as an attacking central midfielder? so far I've only see him play both out on the right and left.. Something has got to change Archie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 The System we are currently playing matches up to the very successful way we played to win the First Division. Bumbuya and Booth are full backs who are the focus of our attacks - they are both decent players but not as good as O'Donnell & Taylor-Sinclair. Osman is the sitting midfielder playing a similar role to Paul Paton - not much between them...Paton hit some great crossfield passes but big Osman would be better for a night out in the West End. Bannigan & Welsh are in the same roles though Welsh looks to have been affected by his injury lay-offs. The front three were Lawless with Erskine and Craig...we now have Amoo and Pogba replacing the latter two. Chris Erskine was a special player for us...Amoo isn't. I wasn't a huge fan of Stephen Craig but he was at least effective and could score goals in the big, strong front man role...Pogba has been hopeless. My conclusion is that if you have less talented players, the team won't be as good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 The System we are currently playing matches up to the very successful way we played to win the First Division. Bumbuya and Booth are full backs who are the focus of our attacks - they are both decent players but not as good as O'Donnell & Taylor-Sinclair. Osman is the sitting midfielder playing a similar role to Paul Paton - not much between them...Paton hit some great crossfield passes but big Osman would be better for a night out in the West End. Bannigan & Welsh are in the same roles though Welsh looks to have been affected by his injury lay-offs. The front three were Lawless with Erskine and Craig...we now have Amoo and Pogba replacing the latter two. Chris Erskine was a special player for us...Amoo isn't. I wasn't a huge fan of Stephen Craig but he was at least effective and could score goals in the big, strong front man role...Pogba has been hopeless. My conclusion is that if you have less talented players, the team won't be as good. Less talented, and playing in a better league than the 1st Division. There's nothing wrong with our "style" of play, we can't afford the players to allow us to be where some fans expect us to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry gaz Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 There's nothing wrong with our "style" of play, we can't afford the players to allow us to be where some fans expect us to be. Our style should suit the players that we can afford and judging by Saturdays second half this isnt the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearchar Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 The central midfield thing does me in completely. Archie seems to have such an obsession with attacking down the flanks he's almost completely neglected the midfield getting into the box .It means also that when a cross does come in the forward is inevitably out numbered too . How many goals have we conceded with the opposition running directly at us into the box when our only attacking option is invariably a big high floaty cross. Was Edwards not signed as an attacking central midfielder? so far I've only see him play both out on the right and left.. Something has got to change Archie. Our style should suit the players that we can afford and judging by Saturdays second half this isnt the case. I don't need to bother posting: angry gaz does it for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I completely agree that we have some less talented players than we have had recently and that has a massive impact on how we perform. We can't expect to be as good as we have been in recent seasons when there has been cuts to budget and we've lost some of our best players. That's exactly the reason we need to change the way we're playing. We should stop striving to play exactly the same way we did when we were winning the 1st division and surviving in the Premiership with those better players. If you don't have the personnel to be able to play that formation and style, find a formation that works for the players you do have. We can all speculate and suggest how we think the team would perform best but it's obviously up to Archie to get the best from the players he has. So far, he's done nothing to suggest he has any idea how to change things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 There's nothing wrong with our "style" of play, we can't afford the players to allow us to be where some fans expect us to be. I agree with the first part and it was the point I was trying to make - this system can be entertaining and effective. It does however need a "gamechanger" like Erskine and ideally a striker with a goal threat and pace or power to unsettle a defence. Amoo does not appear to have the close control or the swagger to change games and Pogba has shown nothing to suggest he is the answer. I'm not sure our budget is a good enough excuse for the system no longer working. Last season we had Higgy & Lyle Taylor who fitted the system but this season apparently we can't afford them. I would repeat what I posted in the Hearts game thread - is there a huge difference between the financial packages for Higgy & Taylor and for Amoo & Pogba? And the manifesto for the summer was that the emphasis would be on quality rather than quality...but we have signed two inferior players and also added Edwards and Muirhead none of whom have contributed much so far. In fairness, it must be exceptionally difficult to budget for a football club like ours - trying to balance the dangers of overspending on income against the financial perils of relegation. Ten minutes from the end of Season 2013/14 we were in 7th place but a late deflected own goal dropped us to 10th - I believe the difference in prize money was about £150,000. I don't think it is unrealistic for Thistle fans to expect us to be competitive in the top league - we are not competing against financial giants and the standard of the opposition is not exactly phenomenal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 It seems to me that we want to be able to be certain of scoring instead of having a shot and maybe getting a deflection or ricochet. How many times do Bannigan or Osman get the ball just outside the box with some space and they play it out to the wings for a cross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry gaz Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 https://tikitakafootballcoaching.wordpress.com/2012/11/10/goals-analysis/ I find this analysis from 2012 EPL interesting. It seems to suggest that central areas of the pitch are where to go through and the wider positions far less profitable.Almost the opposite of we do of what we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Can we learn something from Jamie Vardy? He has come from that lower level of football that many of our players would naturally inhabit and he has made the absolute most of his talents. Quick, direct and aggressive, attacking the box from the front with conviction, picking up free kicks and deflections, and sometimes scoring through outrageous skill, confidence and determination, combining with team-mates, but often just going for it himself. A bit of that sort of spirit could go a long way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Can we learn something from Jamie Vardy? He has come from that lower level of football that many of our players would naturally inhabit and he has made the absolute most of his talents. Quick, direct and aggressive, attacking the box from the front with conviction, picking up free kicks and deflections, and sometimes scoring through outrageous skill, confidence and determination, combining with team-mates, but often just going for it himself. A bit of that sort of spirit could go a long way. A kind of Kris Doolan, you mean? Unfortunately it would seem that Archie doesn't agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I agree with the first part and it was the point I was trying to make - this system can be entertaining and effective. It does however need a "gamechanger" like Erskine and ideally a striker with a goal threat and pace or power to unsettle a defence. Amoo does not appear to have the close control or the swagger to change games and Pogba has shown nothing to suggest he is the answer. I'm not sure our budget is a good enough excuse for the system no longer working. Last season we had Higgy & Lyle Taylor who fitted the system but this season apparently we can't afford them. I would repeat what I posted in the Hearts game thread - is there a huge difference between the financial packages for Higgy & Taylor and for Amoo & Pogba? And the manifesto for the summer was that the emphasis would be on quality rather than quality...but we have signed two inferior players and also added Edwards and Muirhead none of whom have contributed much so far. In fairness, it must be exceptionally difficult to budget for a football club like ours - trying to balance the dangers of overspending on income against the financial perils of relegation. Ten minutes from the end of Season 2013/14 we were in 7th place but a late deflected own goal dropped us to 10th - I believe the difference in prize money was about £150,000. I don't think it is unrealistic for Thistle fans to expect us to be competitive in the top league - we are not competing against financial giants and the standard of the opposition is not exactly phenomenal. Well, we couldn't afford Higgy & Taylor, but we can afford Pogba and Amoo. Of all the players, signed by our competition, over the last 3 windows. How many do you think Archie knew about? I'd say, all of them. I doubt he ever said. I didn't know he was available! So. Of all those players our competition signed, how many do you believe Archie would have thought... He could do a job for me. I'd wager, the majority of them. And with that in mind, I'd suggest he went to Maxi and told him to try and sign these guys. How many of these players do you honestly think, we were competing For, and our rivals just pipped us to the signature? Taylor seemingly was one. So we were told. The club made its business public on that one, why? From what I've heard, our wages are comparable with Falkirk and Raith Rovers. That's the level we're at! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firhillista Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 "From what I've heard, our wages are comparable with Falkirk and Raith Rovers. That's the level we're at! " This. If Archibald (or anyone else for that matter) can keep us up this season, they really will be manager of the year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagfaelivi Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 This "floaty crosses into the box thing" is hopeless and it goes on week in week out. Whoever said it about attacking through the middle has a point - we NEVER seem to do it. There is a reason we never get penalties - we rarely get anybody in the box who is going to try to move towards goal. All we have is one, maybe two waiting to compete with a whole defence for a cross ball that often doesn't come. Hearts have had ten penalties this season and got two in the second half last week - two more than we've had in 18 months. There is a front door to penalty area! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancipital Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Not tremendously hard to list all our goals this season: Doolan vs Killie (1)- good piece of individual play to take advantage of a slip in Killie defence. Doolan vs Killie (2)- cross to far post Amoo vs Well- header after a set piece Amoo vs United- header from a deflected cross Dumbuya vs United - intended cross winds up in the net Bannigan vs United- cross to far post Miller vs St J- long range screamer Lawless vs St J- long range screamer Pogba vs Hamilton- cross tapped in from 2 yards About half from crosses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry gaz Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Not tremendously hard to list all our goals this season: Doolan vs Killie (1)- good piece of individual play to take advantage of a slip in Killie defence. Doolan vs Killie (2)- cross to far post Amoo vs Well- header after a set piece Amoo vs United- header from a deflected cross Dumbuya vs United - intended cross winds up in the net Bannigan vs United- cross to far post Miller vs St J- long range screamer Lawless vs St J- long range screamer Pogba vs Hamilton- cross tapped in from 2 yards About half from crosses. If you look at the goals only one them is actually scored from a cross from outside the box which was Dools second against Killie . The rest of the "cross" goals were passes from inside the opposition box . It looks like we've scored one goal this season directly from a cross from outside the box and yet we persist and persist at it. Also ,we get more goals when we get bodies in the box, something we persist and persist at not doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinistar Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Break the bank and bring back The Bridge. I'd be happy to chip in a months wages. If we build it he will come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Break the bank and bring back The Bridge. I'd be happy to chip in a months wages. If we build it he will come. I'm not sure that a player likely to be out of action for a couple of months having just undergone pelvic surgery is the answer to our current problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 If you look at the goals only one them is actually scored from a cross from outside the box which was Dools second against Killie . The rest of the "cross" goals were passes from inside the opposition box . It looks like we've scored one goal this season directly from a cross from outside the box and yet we persist and persist at it. Also ,we get more goals when we get bodies in the box, something we persist and persist at not doing. Pogba's v Hamilton was a cross outside the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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