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The Jags Foundation

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That’s me done with the Club this season and possibly longer if nothing changes. Im sick of the secret deals and the strange presence of agents.

The current Club Board need to be held account for this shambles and the lack of integrity, They are ruining the Club and need to be removed.

As for the famous five of the PTFC Trust, I hope they can sleep at night realising that they have colluded to ruin it for the fans. 

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3 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Spot on…..though I’m sure they are working on trying to avoid that 

But, why were TJF “limited in what they could do?” TJF ruled out any kind of protest at an early stage, that certainly limited their options and probably emboldened the other side.

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Bizarre decision from Jaqui Low and the PTFC Trust 5.  @Lenziejag & @denismcquadeno.eleven not helping matters with "I told you so" and illogical plans of action.

The Jags Foundation were showing maturity and good governance.  They had limited chance at this stage but with 800 members we still have a strong voice and power.

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4 minutes ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

Bizarre decision from Jaqui Low and the PTFC Trust 5.  @Lenziejag & @denismcquadeno.eleven not helping matters with "I told you so" and illogical plans of action.

The Jags Foundation were showing maturity and good governance.  They had limited chance at this stage but with 800 members we still have a strong voice and power.

Well, yes, I did warn on here what was going on, quite some time ago as a matter of fact. But, if you think that gives me any pleasure to see my club of 60 years in this state, you’re mistaken. As for ‘illogical plans of action’ I think many might have cause now or in the future to regret that fans didn’t make any sort of organised protest. In many ways, the lack of doing so has played right into the board’s hands. We’ve had 800 members for a while. This board isn’t listening. They believe they don’t need to. They’ve gone ahead with their plans and finally, today sealed the deal and all…without much of a metaphorical shot fired against them. THAT’S the reality!

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Denis, what did you do to protest? 

I cancelled a Premium Shirt Sponsorship and took back £400. I’m also following the ‘not another penny’ approach till meaningful change. 

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17 minutes ago, sandy said:

Denis, what did you do to protest? 

I cancelled a Premium Shirt Sponsorship and took back £400. I’m also following the ‘not another penny’ approach till meaningful change. 

Look, this isn’t about me, though several people on here want to make it so. The disapproval and negativity I receive, I ignore, (see LLD above, as an example.) This is about the people who run our club, and have been shown up in all their unpleasantness.

I have written many emails to PTFC over recent years about matters with which I disagreed. I got not a single reply to any of them. I knew what that board was like longer than many, I.believe. I no longer subscribe to Jagzone, don’t buy Thistle shirts and other merchandise. I used to buy a lot! I can’t get to Firhill nowadays, so I can’t do anything about withdrawing ticket money. When you were busy signing up to (was it him) another poster’s exhortations to get more people to sign up to sponsor shirts, I inwardly winced. I would not  have been doing that at that time, for sure. The management of PTFC are not very nice people, they have hoodwinked the fans. That’s yet another reality. I have been ‘a messenger’ with the bad news-that’s all. That bad news turned out to be true-as seen previously and today-don’t shoot the messenger! 

Edited by denismcquadeno.eleven

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58 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Counting the QP game, six games have been played, since that announcement was made by 3BCs/PTFC back in August.

Perhaps TJF didn’t think things would proceed as fast as they have, but, unfortunately as with a) the ‘Not Fit & Proper’ announcement of 9 April, b) the announcement rejecting the overtures of the second (elected) TJF, now today’s statement from the board seems to have caught TJF on the hop again. 

I think you are absolutely correct 

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Denis, it’s just that we have you & Lenziejag both criticising the TJF for lack of action. But at the same time neither of you seem to have acted individually to register a protest. 

Happy to be corrected if I am wrong. It’s easy to criticise a fans group, but it carries less weight if you haven’t acted either. 

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12 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Look, this isn’t about me, though several people on here want to make it so. The disapproval and negativity I receive, I ignore, (see LLD above, as an example.) This is about the people who run our club, and have been shown up in all their unpleasantness.

I have written many emails to PTFC over recent years about matters with which I disagreed. I got not a single reply to any of them. I knew what that board was like longer than many, I.believe. I no longer subscribe to Jagzone, don’t buy Thistle shirts and other merchandise. I used to buy a lot! I can’t get to Firhill nowadays, so I can’t do anything about withdrawing ticket money. When you were busy signing up to (was it him) another poster’s exhortations to get more people to sign up to sponsor shirts, I inwardly winced. I would not  have been doing that at that time, for sure. The management of PTFC are not very nice people, they have hoodwinked the fans. That’s yet another reality. I have been ‘a messenger’ with the bad news-that’s all. That bad news turned out to be true-as seen previously and today-don’t shoot the messenger! 

Denis, you have been consistent in advocating some form of protest & I respect that. However, given the culture at the top of our club,  & let's face it even most of those who have been critical of TJF freely admit it stinks, there is no guarantee that any visible protest would have influenced TBC/BoD. Indeed it may even have been counter productive unless the vast majority of TJF members actively participated. Is there a better way? I honestly don't know

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11 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

Denis, you have been consistent in advocating some form of protest & I respect that. However, given the culture at the top of our club,  & let's face it even most of those who have been critical of TJF freely admit it stinks, there is no guarantee that any visible protest would have influenced TBC/BoD. Indeed it may even have been counter productive unless the vast majority of TJF members actively participated. Is there a better way? I honestly don't know

I suppose TJF could have called for season ticket holders to withhold their money at the start of the season. All it would have taken was a quick look in a crystal ball. :unsure:

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3 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

Denis, you have been consistent in advocating some form of protest & I respect that. However, given the culture at the top of our club,  & let's face it even most of those who have been critical of TJF freely admit it stinks, there is no guarantee that any visible protest would have influenced TBC/BoD. Indeed it may even have been counter productive unless the vast majority of TJF members actively participated. Is there a better way? I honestly don't know

There  are no guarantees about many things, but protest was never tried, so no one can possibly say whether it would have worked or not.

But, when people receive bad news they often think, ‘What could we have done? …done differently? I think protest, properly organised and coordinated would have had a chance of doing…something.

As it was, there was little or no protest, the press went away. (They might have covered it had it happened after all.) TJF  said they didn’t want to go down that road.. I think they gave the impression they preferred a ‘different way’ but we never had time to find out what that ‘way’ was. And, now we have today’s announcement.

Who knows if the TJF members would have followed a call to protest. That was never signalled and so it never happened. They were never even asked.  Most times, people want ‘to follow’ and are waiting for a lead. The leadership of TJF eschewed protest, so there was no lead from them, therefore no protest.

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2 hours ago, sandy said:

Denis, it’s just that we have you & Lenziejag both criticising the TJF for lack of action. But at the same time neither of you seem to have acted individually to register a protest. 

Happy to be corrected if I am wrong. It’s easy to criticise a fans group, but it carries less weight if you haven’t acted either. 

To be honest, I think it’s a bit unfair to bracket me with a person who has never been a member of TJF, who has openly admitted they don’t  care about fan ownership particularly. I have supported fan ownership for years and used to write to the club about it-nil responses. I supported ‘Jags Forever’ at the very beginning and was in touch with someone involved in it. I always supported the idea of a group like TJF being the vehicle for majority ownership of the PTFC shares and I became a member. TJF fitted in with all my perceptions of what a group like that should be like. But, I resigned purely because I disagreed with them over tactics.

Everything I have ever written on this site (about this subject) has been in support of genuine fan ownership. No one will find a single line against it written by me.  I supported TJF until the time after the announcement was made that TJF wouldn’t be getting the shares. Because, from then on I didn’t agree with the way TJF was doing things. I didn’t know what they WERE doing to be honest. But, whatever they were doing, todays announcement is a hammer blow to those ‘plans’. (??)

Now TJF must make a new plan, but still it might all be too little too late. I am not ashamed about anything I have said on this site on this issue. I supported real fan ownership and was consistent in that. I said this board should go, and look at what they’ve done  today. I never received a single agreement heart for saying so. Little support for protest either, and look where we are now, with the ‘alternative’!  I have stuck to my view(s) (though they seemed to be unpopular with many) because in the end (for me) genuine fan ownership is more important than any particular group, incl TJF. That’s what I care about most. They just happened to be ‘the only game in town’ to get fan ownership. But, ultimately they failed or have done so far…

PS: I will say this about Lenzie Jag, he has engaged with me on this site, discussing fan ownership where many others who actually supported it (or said they did) never did. I have been put down on here for challenging TJF tactics as if TJF were the fount of all wisdom and their words were written in stone.  This was ridiculous. Any ordinary  member should be able to challenge the leadership of any organisation and the leadership should have to explain themselves. That’s part of the nature of leadership and democratic organisations. Being obsequious or sycophantic, thinking no one must ever question leaders is ridiculous. Healthy debate and challenge are healthy for any organisation. As a matter of fact, Lenzie Jag, helped to keep the subject of fan ownership a topical issue on here, whatever his views about it. Perhaps he knew this himself or didn’t, but I certainly did. 

Edited by denismcquadeno.eleven

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1 hour ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

Bizarre decision from Jaqui Low and the PTFC Trust 5.  @Lenziejag & @denismcquadeno.eleven not helping matters with "I told you so" and illogical plans of action.

The Jags Foundation were showing maturity and good governance.  They had limited chance at this stage but with 800 members we still have a strong voice and power.

That’s true - but have lost 6 weeks of getting the message out, one of which could have been on national tv.

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4 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

That’s true - but have lost 6 weeks of getting the message out, one of which could have been on national tv.

I honestly dont think that protest would have made any difference - they knew the decision would not go down well - yet chose to continue with it 

The Season Tickets - Sponsor Packages had already been sold by the time TJF were told they were not getting the Shares and the Thistle Trust were the reciepients

So whilst I agree with the fact that organisations like TJF move slowly due to the nature of how they are set up - I honestly dont believe anything they did would have changed the outcome one jot 

The current set up was the one that was preferred - TJF were never going to agree to it - so they were not getting the Shares - its as simple as that 

 

 

  

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2 hours ago, stolenscone said:

Jim - there are 2 points to note:

First: there is obviously a poor track record of holding elections. That needs to change.

Second: I don't know about you, but I currently have no visibility on what, if any, agreement the PTFC Trust trustees might have entered into with the Club Board viz exercise of shareholder rights.  If they have signed a shareholder agreement which essentially gives away any right they have to hold the Club Board to account, then what we are witnessing is a backdoor means to place the Club within the de facto ownership of the Club Board, not the fans.  But so far, the trustees haven't provided any information to explain what they have signed up to. You can't hold them to account for their actions if you don't know what they have done. That's a huge problem. 

Hi David 

Now you have pointed this out - we need to see whats been agreed 

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17 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

I honestly dont think that protest would have made any difference - they knew the decision would not go down well - yet chose to continue with it 

The Season Tickets - Sponsor Packages had already been sold by the time TJF were told they were not getting the Shares and the Thistle Trust were the reciepients

So whilst I agree with the fact that organisations like TJF move slowly due to the nature of how they are set up - I honestly dont believe anything they did would have changed the outcome one jot 

The current set up was the one that was preferred - TJF were never going to agree to it - so they were not getting the Shares - its as simple as that 

 

 

  

You ‘think’. You don’t know. But, wouldn’t it have been better to …find out then that rules out any chance of …if only…in the weeks ahead?!! And, yes, it might not have changed the situation ‘one jot’, but it would have been good…to find out. A hypothesis can be interesting, but actually doing it..testing it…gives a result which is more clear and valid one way or another.

But, I think everyone is now waiting for the response from TJF. Right now, there is nothing on their website. 

Edited by denismcquadeno.eleven

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Assuming the protests about the share transfer, referral to the SFA,  etc, come to nothing what options are left ?

For example, as far as the PTFC Trust is concerned -

- what is required to call an EGM ?

- who can call it ?

- who is eligible to vote ?

- can the existing trustees be removed ?

- how long would that process take ?

- if new trustees are elected, what powers do they have to change the make-up of the club board ?

Apologies if that's been covered elsewhere - I may have missed it amongst the posts ...

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16 minutes ago, Buckstone said:

Assuming the protests about the share transfer, referral to the SFA,  etc, come to nothing what options are left ?

For example, as far as the PTFC Trust is concerned -

- what is required to call an EGM ?

- who can call it ?

- who is eligible to vote ?

- can the existing trustees be removed ?

- how long would that process take ?

- if new trustees are elected, what powers do they have to change the make-up of the club board ?

Apologies if that's been covered elsewhere - I may have missed it amongst the posts ...

A Trust structure does not permit beneficiaries to call an EGM.

The Trust Deed requires periodic elections, but the trustees have so far failed to comply with the rules of the Trust.

The powers that the trustees have as shareholders will depend upon any shareholder agreement that they might have entered into. But as they won't provide information or respond to the request of beneficiaries for information, it is not possible to say at present whether there is any such agreement or if there is, what it says.

Trustees can be replaced via the elections, but as they don't call elections when required to do so, that is understandably difficult to do in practice.

Beneficiaries are eligible to vote in any election, if one is ever called. At the moment, season ticket holders are automatically designed as beneficiaries. There is no way to opt out, nor is there any way for non season ticket holders to become a beneficiary, unless the Trust rules are changed.  There has been a history of unilaterally changing the Trust rules to suit the circumstances without seeking to consult with beneficiaries. 

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45 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

I honestly dont think that protest would have made any difference - they knew the decision would not go down well - yet chose to continue with it 

The Season Tickets - Sponsor Packages had already been sold by the time TJF were told they were not getting the Shares and the Thistle Trust were the reciepients

So whilst I agree with the fact that organisations like TJF move slowly due to the nature of how they are set up - I honestly dont believe anything they did would have changed the outcome one jot 

The current set up was the one that was preferred - TJF were never going to agree to it - so they were not getting the Shares - its as simple as that 

 

 

  

It is obvious that 3BC/PTFC were not going to change. If TJF members start protesting at every game home and away, it is going to start getting picked up by social media/news outlets. At the same time get in touch with SFA about how the process was carried out and the law society regarding this supposed client confidentiality stuff that 3BC were spouting. Use every possible avenue  to call into question the process.

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Thanks for compiling that all in one place - you've effectively confirmed what I expected to hear.

It's almost as if it's been set up that way specifically to make change difficult to effect (surely not !!!).

 

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I would love to hope that there is a way of changing the PTFC Trust from within, by eventually voting on enough trustees in favour of genuine fan ownership and engagement to outnumber the Famous Five or the remnant of them, and then to plot a whole new course for the Trust. However stolenscone has already explained how the Trust may by that time be hamstrung and limited by irreversible concessions already made.

Another concern I would have is for the interim period when the "genuine fan-minded elected trustees" for want of a better expression were in the minority. They could argue and vote at trust meetings against all that the Famous Five were doing. However, once a decision is made, would these minority trustees who voted against it not be bound by collective responsibility? The choice they would have would be either to resign or to  be (or at least appear) complicit in the decision. If minority trustees felt obliged to resign to protect their integrity and/or reputation, it might take a long time, if ever at all, for that minority to grow to become a majority.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of trusts can confirm or allay my fears.

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If the new majority shareholders decide to reach out to the trustees (ie, ST holders, most of whom like me never knew they were trustees in the first place), would be illegal to obtain a list of ST holders' e-mail addresses from the club under the current Data Protection laws?  If so, interested to know how they will" communicate".

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8 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Jacqui Low was approached for comment by Herald and Times Sport but refused to add to Tuesday’s statement from the club as Thistle chairman, nor did she offer a response in her role as a director of 3BC.

The Great Communicator continues to hide and treat the support with utter contempt. 

Edited by JAG1970

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