Jags V Subsea Utd

[JAG1970]

4 hours ago, laukat said:

Don't see what Willamson did/didn't do whilst on the park that meant he should be bannished. Williamson might not be the answer but not to have tried him alongside McInroy looks odd. If he's not going to play why not end the loan?

Williamson’s loan is up at the end of December. If he can’t get a game soon then he must be on his way out which might free up space for a defensive midfielder.
But the warnings are clear in yesterday’s game. the Arbroath game and the first half at Somerset….our midfield can be easily bossed.  Doolan needs to find a blend that works, there are a further 27 points to play for before the window opens.
Teams are aware of how we play and Doolan so far has stuck rigidly to that style and formation, and generally to the same starting line up. We seem to lack a plan B.

[laukat]

I really should know better but I just watched a replay of the first goal and it was worse than I thought.

By the time Sibbald receives the ball in the box we have all 11 in players in our own 18 yard box. Dundee United only have 8 forward but Sibbald has all the time in the world. Sibbald hasn't make a clever run or done anything brilliant to create space, we just haven't assigned anyone to pick him up.

Can someone else have a look and tell me what they think Stuart Bannigan is doing at the corner? I'm like a broken record with him so would welcome a second opinion.

 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

16 minutes ago, laukat said:

I really should know better but I just watched a replay of the first goal and it was worse than I thought.

By the time Sibbald receives the ball in the box we have all 11 in players in our own 18 yard box. Dundee United only have 8 forward but Sibbald has all the time in the world. Sibbald hasn't make a clever run or done anything brilliant to create space, we just haven't assigned anyone to pick him up.

Can someone else have a look and tell me what they think Stuart Bannigan is doing at the corner? I'm like a broken record with him so would welcome a second opinion.

 

Two go out to defend what could become a short corner. Looks like Lawless and Bannigan have taken up fairly standard positions. Don't know why attacking teams don't do similar more often as you've one less defender in the box.

Correct re Sibbald given space cheaply. Rotten defending. 

[dl1971]

Kind of echo above. Also fitzpatrick pointed at sibbald but....did nothing. Worth mentioning that it was mcenroy who gave away the ball which led to the corner. If that would have been bannigan I suspect you may have commented on that....to be fair bannigan should have saved the holt thunderbolt. 

[Winter of '63]

27 minutes ago, laukat said:

I really should know better but I just watched a replay of the first goal and it was worse than I thought.

By the time Sibbald receives the ball in the box we have all 11 in players in our own 18 yard box. Dundee United only have 8 forward but Sibbald has all the time in the world. Sibbald hasn't make a clever run or done anything brilliant to create space, we just haven't assigned anyone to pick him up.

Can someone else have a look and tell me what they think Stuart Bannigan is doing at the corner? I'm like a broken record with him so would welcome a second opinion.

 

I'll repeat what I posted earlier - Fitzpatrick pointed to the unmarked player and started to move over but Muirhead waved him away...he was then drawn towards the front post and the ball sailed over his head into the space behind him.

Muirhead entirely to blame...I had you down as one of the better posters on here until you developed your Bannigan paranoia.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

The 2nd goal is kinda chicken or egg re blame. Holt shouldn't have been allowed a free run. if we didn't back off he wouldn't have got a shot away. The fact we did give him a free run made his shot that much easier to predict, so Sneddon didn't exactly have to rely on making an instinctive save. Regardless I think those few seconds before the shot is taken both highlights and sums up our defensive mid frailties. 

[thornwoodjag]

1 hour ago, dl1971 said:

Kind of echo above. Also fitzpatrick pointed at sibbald but....did nothing. Worth mentioning that it was mcenroy who gave away the ball which led to the corner. If that would have been bannigan I suspect you may have commented on that....to be fair bannigan should have saved the holt thunderbolt. 

If you watch all the corners we defend, Fitzpatrick is told to stay up for a breakaway. He did point out Sibbald but was told to go away. By the time the ball comes in he was still closest to Sibbald. Someone in the box not doing their job, not Fitzpatrick 

[laukat]

36 minutes ago, Winter of '63 said:

I'll repeat what I posted earlier - Fitzpatrick pointed to the unmarked player and started to move over but Muirhead waved him away...he was then drawn towards the front post and the ball sailed over his head into the space behind him.

Muirhead entirely to blame...I had you down as one of the better posters on here until you developed your Bannigan paranoia.

I wish I could move away from Bannigan's mistakes but they just seem to get worse. I have no desire to pick on any player but the guy is so far off what we need that its dragging the rest of the team down.

An example was yesterday's first goal. You can see in the aftermath that Muirhead and I think Lawless are having a go at Fitzpatrick. Fitzpatrick was meant to be at the halfway line as our outball so Fitzpatrick got blamed for someone else's mistake (if you look back at my posts there have been times when I've criticised Fitzpatrick defensively so I'm not protecting him)

At the corner kick Dundee United put their big men and strikers in around the 6 yard box. That meant Gallgher, Holt, Moult, Watt and I think McMann? we deployed Muirhead, Graham, Jamieson, Ngwenya, Milne and McInroy to deal with that which made sense. At the edge of the box Lawless is picking up Fotheringham to stop the short corner, Robinson has Docherty but no-one has Sibbald, where's our other defensive midfielder if McInroy is in the 6 yard box?

At that moment you look at who Bannigan has and he has no-one. He's standing on the edge of the 18 yard box in front of the corner kick taker as if he's making a wall to defend a free-kick. What's he doing? There's very little danger of a quick corner or short corner and as far as I know the Dundee United taker isn't that good at corners that we need a defensive wall?

If you look at the corner kick its not a cross, its a pass from the taker to Sibbald. Holt also does a cute bit of obstruction to slow Jamieson and Muirhead form getting out.

Muirhead sees the problem as does Lawless, thats why they ask Fitzpatrick to fill the gap. At least 3 Dundee United players recognise the opprotunity (corner kick taker, Sibbald, Holt). I actually think it was a pre-planned move by Dundee United. They new if they committed enough bodies into the box that one would go free as we don't have anyone in midfield able to sense danger and re-organise like Docherty could.

59 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

The 2nd goal is kinda chicken or egg re blame. Holt shouldn't have been allowed a free run. if we didn't back off he wouldn't have got a shot away. The fact we did give him a free run made his shot that much easier to predict, so Sneddon didn't exactly have to rely on making an instinctive save. Regardless I think those few seconds before the shot is taken both highlights and sums up our defensive mid frailties. 

Agree, when we lose the ball we don't look like a team that knows how to plug gaps, sense danger or re-organise quickly enough. Docherty was by no means exceptional but Holt's second goal probably doesn't get conceded with someone like him in midfield as he would either have fouled Holt or started shouting orders to get his defence in shape. Instead McInroy tries to get a tackle in on 2 Dundee Utd players but doesn't touch either and no-one takes charge thereafter. Having seen it again I don't think Holt's strike was as good as I first thought, I think Sneddon could have done better.

[Garscube Road End 2]

It's becoming clear that Dollan is out of his depth as a manager. Who we replace him with? Difficult to say. 

Can we afford it? Probably not.

 

We will probably have to stick with him and cross our fingers and toes that play offs are achieved. 

[Garscube Road End 2]

4 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

It's becoming clear that Dollan is out of his depth as a manager. Who we replace him with? Difficult to say. 

Can we afford it? Probably not.

 

We will probably have to stick with him and cross our fingers and toes that play offs are achieved. 

But with the recent amateurish( and embarrassing off the field incidents), it is clear that PTFc are going nowhere. Fan ownership? That looks like a piece of utter bilge.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Garscube Road End 2

[dl1971]

1 hour ago, laukat said:

I wish I could move away from Bannigan's mistakes but they just seem to get worse. I have no desire to pick on any player but the guy is so far off what we need that its dragging the rest of the team down.

An example was yesterday's first goal. You can see in the aftermath that Muirhead and I think Lawless are having a go at Fitzpatrick. Fitzpatrick was meant to be at the halfway line as our outball so Fitzpatrick got blamed for someone else's mistake (if you look back at my posts there have been times when I've criticised Fitzpatrick defensively so I'm not protecting him)

At the corner kick Dundee United put their big men and strikers in around the 6 yard box. That meant Gallgher, Holt, Moult, Watt and I think McMann? we deployed Muirhead, Graham, Jamieson, Ngwenya, Milne and McInroy to deal with that which made sense. At the edge of the box Lawless is picking up Fotheringham to stop the short corner, Robinson has Docherty but no-one has Sibbald, where's our other defensive midfielder if McInroy is in the 6 yard box?

At that moment you look at who Bannigan has and he has no-one. He's standing on the edge of the 18 yard box in front of the corner kick taker as if he's making a wall to defend a free-kick. What's he doing? There's very little danger of a quick corner or short corner and as far as I know the Dundee United taker isn't that good at corners that we need a defensive wall?

If you look at the corner kick its not a cross, its a pass from the taker to Sibbald. Holt also does a cute bit of obstruction to slow Jamieson and Muirhead form getting out.

Muirhead sees the problem as does Lawless, thats why they ask Fitzpatrick to fill the gap. At least 3 Dundee United players recognise the opprotunity (corner kick taker, Sibbald, Holt). I actually think it was a pre-planned move by Dundee United. They new if they committed enough bodies into the box that one would go free as we don't have anyone in midfield able to sense danger and re-organise like Docherty could.

Agree, when we lose the ball we don't look like a team that knows how to plug gaps, sense danger or re-organise quickly enough. Docherty was by no means exceptional but Holt's second goal probably doesn't get conceded with someone like him in midfield as he would either have fouled Holt or started shouting orders to get his defence in shape. Instead McInroy tries to get a tackle in on 2 Dundee Utd players but doesn't touch either and no-one takes charge thereafter. Having seen it again I don't think Holt's strike was as good as I first thought, I think Sneddon could have done better.

We lost 5 goals..... You have focused on one, where bannigans involvement is non existent or minimal as others have stated. Why not analyse all the goals and spread the blame?  You are now suggesting that solely bannigan is bringing the entire teams performance down, which doesn't carry much water. The entire team were flat/awful/second best, so to scapegoat one player ( again ) misses the point why we lost. For the record I think bannigan and many others deserve dropping, but the problem is we have little options at the moment ( for a variety of reasons). Maybe worth making a point why bannigan is in the team. It's essentially to link the play and give it to others with more attacking skill etc. I'd describe him as a water carrier. A guy who keeps it simple. Most teams have a player like that. Dare I say ( on a slightly higher plane ) watch how Billy Gilmour plays for Brighton and Scotland. Its all very simple, but designed to keep possession. He rarely scores or has many killer passes ( sound familiar ) but he's essential to the team. Finally, a dose of reality. We have lost holt, docherty, Turner and tiffoney. Mcmillan injured and milne off form. That's 6 out of 11 of the team last year. No squad is easily going to bounce back from that, especially one with a very inexperienced manager. 

[laukat]

1 minute ago, dl1971 said:

We lost 5 goals..... You have focused on one, where bannigans involvement is non existent or minimal as others have stated. Why not analyse all the goals and spread the blame?  You are now suggesting that solely bannigan is bringing the entire teams performance down, which doesn't carry much water. The entire team were flat/awful/second best, so to scapegoat one player ( again ) misses the point why we lost. For the record I think bannigan and many others deserve dropping, but the problem is we have little options at the moment ( for a variety of reasons). Maybe worth making a point why bannigan is in the team. It's essentially to link the play and give it to others with more attacking skill etc. I'd describe him as a water carrier. A guy who keeps it simple. Most teams have a player like that. Dare I say ( on a slightly higher plane ) watch how Billy Gilmour plays for Brighton and Scotland. Its all very simple, but designed to keep possession. He rarely scores or has many killer passes ( sound familiar ) but he's essential to the team. Finally, a dose of reality. We have lost holt, docherty, Turner and tiffoney. Mcmillan injured and milne off form. That's 6 out of 11 of the team last year. No squad is easily going to bounce back from that, especially one with a very inexperienced manager. 

The reason I focused on the first goal is because its a set piece and it was defended in a way that kids would be ashamed of. It looked too easy live but the highlights show just how poor it was. It defies belief that we allowed a man to go unmarked at a set piece. Its also integral to the result as the opening goal meant we had to attack a team that knows how to defend. 

I've seen Bannigan do much better in many games. He was turning in decent performances from when Doolan took over until he got injured in the playoffs but to my mind he hasn't been anywhere near it since that injury.

I don't think the injury itself is why Bannigan is off form. I think the County game had an effect on him that he's not recovered from and without an organiser alongside him to cover his defensive lapses it has impacted his performances. 

My main issue with Bannigan is he seems undroppable. He may be the best we have in midfield but why not try someone else and see if thats true? 

[Weebaw1]

Fitzy’s injury may allow us to play an additional midfielder and become less overwhelmed. Doc controlled the game. I didn’t really appreciate him last season but he broke up any attacks we tried on Saturday, then bombed forward.

McDonald is clearly not the answer. He’s contributed nothing in the games I’ve seen him.

Personnel needs to change though. Banzo and McInroy not at the races! 

Subs again were far too late. Williamson and Adeloye could easily have replaced McDonsld and Graham much earlier.

[jlsarmy]

21 hours ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

It's becoming clear that Dollan is out of his depth as a manager. Who we replace him with? Difficult to say. 

Can we afford it? Probably not.

 

We will probably have to stick with him and cross our fingers and toes that play offs are achieved. 

So we got beaten by the favourites to win the Championship so your conclusion is that Doolan is out his depth , I assume you were saying that last season when Doolan took us to the play off final .

Making the same assumption, McCall must have been seriously out his depth after we got beat at home by Cove and Hamilton.

We’ve got no chance to rebuild our Club with “ supporters “ like yourself 

 

[Dick Dastardly]

1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

So we got beaten by the favourites to win the Championship so your conclusion is that Doolan is out his depth , I assume you were saying that last season when Doolan took us to the play off final .

Making the same assumption, McCall must have been seriously out his depth after we got beat at home by Cove and Hamilton.

We’ve got no chance to rebuild our Club with “ supporters “ like yourself 

 

To be fair to GRE, he was one of the ones saying that McCall was seriously out of his depth at least 6 months before the cove and Hamilton games

[sandy]

Doolan deserves time to get this team functioning better. I always thought this would be a transitional year after the loss of Turner, Tiffoney etc. 

Realistic target would be sneaking into the top 4. So let’s not lose the heid just yet. 

[Weebaw1]

35 minutes ago, sandy said:

Doolan deserves time to get this team functioning better. I always thought this would be a transitional year after the loss of Turner, Tiffoney etc. 

Realistic target would be sneaking into the top 4. So let’s not lose the heid just yet. 

Agreed. 

But we shouldn’t be getting pumped 3-0 and 5-0 at home by anyone never mind Championship teams.

The heads went down. Doolan needs to kick their butts. Is he nasty enough?

Graham, Banzo and Muirhead should know better. Their butts need kicked from Firhill to Hampden.  Old pals shouldn’t be exempt from a bollocking.

[javeajag]

Ok …. I need to ask what is ‘ transitional season ‘ ? Since it seems to be the excuse of the week 

it was always going to be tough to get past DU given their finances but why should we struggle to get into the top 4 ? 
 

unless Doolans recruitment is poor 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

37 minutes ago, Weebaw1 said:

Agreed. 

But we shouldn’t be getting pumped 3-0 and 5-0 at home by anyone never mind Championship teams.

The heads went down. Doolan needs to kick their butts. Is he nasty enough?

Graham, Banzo and Muirhead should know better. Their butts need kicked from Firhill to Hampden.  Old pals shouldn’t be exempt from a bollocking.

I think it's fair to assume that Doolan doesn't do "nasty". I've heard much the same as well. Instead he relies on senior players, particularly Graham & Muirhead, to boss the troops. So hardly leading by example when game already lost one gets sent off and the other picks up a needless booking. So any bollocking may be have to be done in front of a mirror.  

[Garscube Road End 2]

2 hours ago, sandy said:

Doolan deserves time to get this team functioning better. I always thought this would be a transitional year after the loss of Turner, Tiffoney etc. 

Realistic target would be sneaking into the top 4. So let’s not lose the heid just yet. 

Transition period, yes. But his recruitment has been poor.

[Duke Gekantawa]

11 hours ago, javeajag said:

Ok …. I need to ask what is ‘ transitional season ‘ ? Since it seems to be the excuse of the week 

it was always going to be tough to get past DU given their finances but why should we struggle to get into the top 4 ? 
 

unless Doolans recruitment is poor 

I would agree that is a reasonable target, and we are presently 3rd after 1/4 of the season. So we are on track to meet that target.

If we start falling down the table and out of play-off contention then maybe we should be looking at the manager.

The manager is a rookie, this was his first recruitment window in management, at a time when a spine of core players had left the club and budget had been cut. As such, Doolan is doing about as good as McCall did with a lesser budget and therefore a lesser squad. It's worth remembering that Archie's first recruitment window was a bit of a disaster also (Kerr, Baird etc.), but he learnt from that (for a while anyway, virtually all managers seem to have a "sell-by date" for some reason).

I'm prepared to cut him some slack unless things start going properly downhill. For now, I think he's doing alright and hopefully will learn from this first window.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

10 hours ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

Transition period, yes. But his recruitment has been poor.

In my mind the non signing of a defensive midfielder is more of an issue than the quality of the signings.

Having been aware of the financial situation for a while I was expecting we ran with our contracted players and youngsters. Any new intake perhaps being dependent on selling a player like Milne. So I suspect recruitment reflects largely on our cash flow situation. With that in mind I find it hard to be too critical of Doolan on that front.

All comes back to not having a ball winner in midfield. If that had been sorted I doubt there would be much criticism on overall recruitment.

[Emsca]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:32 PM, Garscube Road End 2 said:

It's becoming clear that Dollan is out of his depth as a manager. Who we replace him with? Difficult to say. 

Can we afford it? Probably not.

 

We will probably have to stick with him and cross our fingers and toes that play offs are achieved. 

Quell surprise - you want the manager sacked.

Just as you wanted McCall sacked.

Sacking managers after a short period in charge will just result in a spiral of mediocrity.

We need to put a plan in place and stick with it for at least 2 full seasons. The Manager should be clear what that plan is and the "supporters" should back him.

We are an average club in a Scottish context . We have no divine right to success .

Doolan is a young inexperienced manager who is no doubt learning as he goes along . I for 1 think he is an intelligent person and good communicator and I believe he has the respect of the players. I would much rather stick with him than change for some journeyman manager - which is all we could expect to attract.  

[Garscube Road End 2]

28 minutes ago, Emsca said:

Quell surprise - you want the manager sacked.

Just as you wanted McCall sacked.

Sacking managers after a short period in charge will just result in a spiral of mediocrity.

We need to put a plan in place and stick with it for at least 2 full seasons. The Manager should be clear what that plan is and the "supporters" should back him.

We are an average club in a Scottish context . We have no divine right to success .

Doolan is a young inexperienced manager who is no doubt learning as he goes along . I for 1 think he is an intelligent person and good communicator and I believe he has the respect of the players. I would much rather stick with him than change for some journeyman manager - which is all we could expect to attract.  

A short period? McCall certainly wasn't sacked after a short period. And he thoroughly deserved the sack with the mediocrity he served up with a more than healthy budget. But if you are happy to accept the mediocrity on offer, then bash on!

Edited October 24, 2023 by Garscube Road End 2

[sandy]

14 hours ago, javeajag said:

Ok …. I need to ask what is ‘ transitional season ‘ ? Since it seems to be the excuse of the week 

it was always going to be tough to get past DU given their finances but why should we struggle to get into the top 4 ? 
 

unless Doolans recruitment is poor 

A transitional season is one where we moved from a squad that was budgeted for promotion to one where we lost some key players.

Apart from missing a defensive midfielder and having signed Alston, the rest was as good as Doolan could get on the budget given.

The transition from one Board to another can’t have helped either. 

Once Doolan has a proper go at rebuilding during this season, the transition will be complete.

Edited October 24, 2023 by sandy