javeajag Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 6 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: Nothing to do with rich club or poor club - it’s about trusting the player. Raith don’t. Eh…..they offered him a new deal and expected him to take it ffs ! they only offered turner a six month loan as well yiu can work it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 54 minutes ago, javeajag said: Eh…..they offered him a new deal and expected him to take it ffs ! they only offered turner a six month loan as well yiu can work it out Ross County might well have told raith they can only have him for 6 months as it’s a loan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 Good signings so far by Dools. Happy days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 9 hours ago, javeajag said: Eh…..they offered him a new deal and expected him to take it ffs ! they only offered turner a six month loan as well yiu can work it out I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. Doolan wanted him more than Murray did. Where is the story in that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 52 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. Doolan wanted him more than Murray did. Where is the story in that ? Isn’t the story we are competing with raith for players despite what the doom merchants have been saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 25 minutes ago, javeajag said: Isn’t the story we are competing with raith for players despite what the doom merchants have been saying. Not going to get into that nonsense. We can now, but I believe that there were mitigating circumstances in the summer. You might not, that is your entitled opinion, but I think that most can see them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 15 hours ago, MarciaBlaine said: Or Raith suspect he isn't quite good enough for the top flight, and are a lot more confident of getting promoted than we are. I think it is obvious Raith don’t think he is good enough. Weren’t even sure he was good enough for the Championship - they only gave him a 3 month deal initially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 11 hours ago, javeajag said: Eh…..they offered him a new deal and expected him to take it ffs ! they only offered turner a six month loan as well yiu can work it out He joined Raith in November on a deal to January, then they want to extend that to the end of the season. Doesn’t seem like much trust there when there were a bunch of other clubs interested. I am sure you can appreciate that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 16 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: He joined Raith in November on a deal to January, then they want to extend that to the end of the season. Doesn’t seem like much trust there when there were a bunch of other clubs interested. I am sure you can appreciate that. I’m basing my view on comments from Colin Cameron and ian Murray at Raith. they have a higher opinion of him than you do. Raith are making no financial commitments beyond the summer. We are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 11 minutes ago, javeajag said: I’m basing my view on comments from Colin Cameron and ian Murray at Raith. they have a higher opinion of him than you do. Raith are making no financial commitments beyond the summer. We are. I am not sure I understand that last point - they have players contracted beyond the end of this season, recently extended the manager's deal by 3 years and have to maintain their stadium, etc all of which takes a certain amount of money. Sorry if I have misunderstood your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 Apparently we are one of a number of clubs interested in Lee Ashcroft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 23 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: Apparently we are one of a number of clubs interested in Lee Ashcroft. I doubt that's the case now we've got Dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Albert's Ghost said: I doubt that's the case now we've got Dan. Neilson is away in the summer and both Ashcroft and o Reilly are upgrades on Muirhead and Williams. Muirhead was signed purely as backup but necessity has meant we have to play him. O Reilly is possibly a replacement for him. I could see Ashcroft as someone in for Williams who may want away or is not someone that Doolan thinks is good enough to be challenging for promotion. I’m sure Ashcroft can also cover at right back - we could lose other defensive players in addition to Neilson out of contract eg McMillan not signed a new deal, someone bidding for Milne etc As I say for me O Reilly is an upgrade on Muirhead and Ashcroft would be one for Williams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hosie Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 (edited) Every club, cash rich or not, has a finite resource. Every club has a different set of prioroties when it comes to player recruitment. Every decent manager needs to think of not just the current season but also beyond when deploying whatever resource his club has placed at his disposal. Raith signed O'Reilly as cover for injured players who are, I believe, on the way back to fitness. They clearly rate him, or see value in him still being part of their squad for the current season, hence their wish to extend his short term contract. However, with injured players on the way back it could be that Murray doesn't wish to commit part of his playing budget for the 2024-2025 season in area that he feels is well covered when that resource could be better deployed elsewhere. O'Reilly plays in a position that we needed strengthening in. Kris Doolan clearly thinks it is worthwhile to utilise part of his playing budget for 2024-2025 on him. Different clubs. Different set of priorities. Not simply a case of rich v poor. I appreciate that level of nuance is likely lost on some. Or ignored if it doesn't suit the point they are labouring. Edited January 11 by Tom Hosie Adding point 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Tom Hosie said: Every club, cash rich or not, has a finite resource. Every club has a different set of prioroties when it comes to player recruitment. Every decent manager needs to think of not just the current season but also beyond when deploying whatever resource his club has placed at his disposal. Raith signed O'Reilly as cover for injured players who are, I believe, on the way back to fitness. They clearly rate him, or see value in him still being part of their squad for the current season, hence their wish to extend his short term contract. However, with injured players on the way back it could be that Murray doesn't wish to commit part of his playing budget for the 2024-2025 season in area that he feels is well covered when that resource could be better deployed elsewhere. O'Reilly plays in a position that we needed strengthening in. Kris Doolan clearly thinks it is worthwhile to utilise part of his playing budget for 2024-2025 on him. Different clubs. Different set of priorities. Not simply a case of rich v poor. I appreciate that level of nuance is likely lost on some. Or ignored if it doesn't suit the point they are labouring. Not to labour the point, there is no evidence raith have significantly more resources than us or that we cannot compete with them for players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 6 minutes ago, javeajag said: Not to labour the point, there is no evidence raith have significantly more resources than us or that we cannot compete with them for players. Whether we can or we can't. So what ? You have been going on and on about this for weeks. What is your point ? Please play another record. I (and I'm sure others) am completely bored of the same thing said over and over and over without any point 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 15 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: Whether we can or we can't. So what ? You have been going on and on about this for weeks. What is your point ? Please play another record. I (and I'm sure others) am completely bored of the same thing said over and over and over without any point Because this started with people saying Raith have more resources than us therefore being in third place is acceptable. They don’t and therefore it isn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiledjag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 16 hours ago, Duke Gekantawa said: Turner is much better going forward than in defence. Our problem is not in attack. We already score enough, at a sufficiently fast rate, to win this league. It’s conceding that’s the problem, in my opinion largely because we lose control in midfield for long periods (I think our core defending isn’t that bad, and we have now added a new CD who should be an upgrade on Aero). I don’t think Turner would address this. Maybe McBeth might, though it’s a big ask considering the level he’s been playing at. If not, we still desperately need more steel in midfield. Agree with above. Turner's strength was playing high up the park and running beyond our striker(s). So notwithstanding he is better than our current bunch of midfielders he is not the type of midfielder we need right now. Perhaps in the summer when Doolan reshapes his squad for SPL football and if he is available! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hosie Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 There's no evidence to support either Raith Rovers or Partick Thistle having more resources than the other. Given that our 2022-2023 season finished in June, and that was going to be an added difficultly in terms recruitment irrespective of what league we were in for the current season, the players that we lost and the financial uncertainity surrounding our Club in mid June, I don't think that third position is unreasonable at this point or, IMO, should we finish in a promotion play-off position again this season. Unacceptable would be under performing relative to our wage budget and that of the others in the league. Given that nobody knows the wage budget at our club, or at our divisional rivals, that is difficult to gauge. Which is why, I guess, some people want to continue to labour a particular point despte being no better informed than any of us. I would say that dropping to 5th in the league and outside the play-off places, given the perceived resources, having lost at home to the bottom two would be considered unacceptable. It certainly was to the BoD at that point last season. Personally I view this season as something of a transition season. Does that mean that we shouldn't be targetting promotion? Absolutely not, and it is still an achievable aim albeit the play-offs look the most likely route. If promotion can't be acheived this season I would still view this season as a worthwhile one if the building blocks for future successes is put in place. Season 2011-2012 wasn't a successful season, we finished 6th, but it was a stepping stone towards promotion the following season. I'm content with the progress the Club is making this season after a very difficult summer. I think in his second window, and in the lead up to that with contract extensions, the manager is doing a good job in terms of player recruitment and retention. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 20 minutes ago, javeajag said: Because this started with people saying Raith have more resources than us therefore being in third place is acceptable. They don’t and therefore it isn’t. The truth is we don't know and it is acceptable because its ahem....reality. 99.5% of thistle fan base ( I have no evidence ) accept where we are, irrespective of the why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 40 minutes ago, javeajag said: Because this started with people saying Raith have more resources than us therefore being in third place is acceptable. They don’t and therefore it isn’t. What I don't understand is how you reconcile the view that Doolan should be kept on (which you have explicitly stated as your opinion), with the view that our present performance is "unacceptable". Similarly I have trouble reconciling your opinion (at the time) that McCall should not have been sacked when he was, with the fact that we were 5th (I think) when this happened (which presumably is also an unacceptable position if third is unacceptable). For what its worth, I am reasonable content with third at present, even if we were spending more than Raith. There were other mitigating factors, and we are presently in with a realistic chance of promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 37 minutes ago, dl1971 said: The truth is we don't know and it is acceptable because its ahem....reality. 99.5% of thistle fan base ( I have no evidence ) accept where we are, irrespective of the why. Two assertions unsupported by any evidence …. You would be better to say … ‘ don’t know and I am happy in third place’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 15 minutes ago, Duke Gekantawa said: What I don't understand is how you reconcile the view that Doolan should be kept on (which you have explicitly stated as your opinion), with the view that our present performance is "unacceptable". Similarly I have trouble reconciling your opinion (at the time) that McCall should not have been sacked when he was, with the fact that we were 5th (I think) when this happened (which presumably is also an unacceptable position if third is unacceptable). For what its worth, I am reasonable content with third at present, even if we were spending more than Raith. There were other mitigating factors, and we are presently in with a realistic chance of promotion. I am not a fan of us sacking managers mid season when we are still around promotion/playoffs. In that scenario the time to review the manager is at the end of the season so you can take a balanced view. As Doolan may get us promoted - he may even win the league - I wouldn’t dismiss him. And that is perfectly consistent with saying our current league position ( not our end of season position ) is not good enough. Due in my view to defensive weaknesses. just because you think our league position should be better doesn’t mean you want to sack the manager just that he should be doing better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, javeajag said: Because this started with people saying Raith have more resources than us therefore being in third place is acceptable. They don’t and therefore it isn’t. Not on this thread, it didn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 I'm not so sure Raith have a bigger budget than us. I think they have a similar budget to us but perhaps more importantly a larger budget than they had last year. They also had an advantage in that they knew much earlier last season what division they would be playing in as they were the only club that was neither involved in relegation or promotion several weeks before the end of the season. Also they have a manager in who has been there for 18 months and now in his 4th transfer window. In our case we have a manager who is less than a year in post, was the last team of the likely promotion chasers to know they would be in the championship, who's budget went from unknown to non-existent to competitive and who is only now on his second transfer window so its not difficult to see why Raith are in better shape to pursue automatic promotion This season is largely make or break for Murray as Raith manager. Anything less than a playoff spot probably means he's arguably not done enough. He might one more shot at getting Raith promoted in season 24/25 but he will have increasingly less road in front of him. Doolan on the other hand is to my mind working on a team to challenge next season whilst being competitive enough this season to have go at the playoffs. Unless something goes badly wrong in the first half of next season he will only really be judged at the end of next season but will probably still have 25/26 to see if he can get us promoted. So to my mind we have 2 clubs and 2 managers at different points of a 2/3 year plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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