lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 I keep reading the term "The Jury is (still) out". I occasionally use the expression myself. But I really think when used to describe the tenure of 99% of football managers the expression is largely inappropriate. The Jury is effectively always out. Doolan has been in the job about a year now and I believe he's already scraped into the top half (top 21) managers ranked in terms of length of tenure. Wouldn't surprise me if he's nearing the current average term of management at one club (re full time clubs). So it's fair to say on relative terms Doolan is more experienced in managing the one particular club than the average manager. Of course in reality that's nonsense. He's still a rookie manager still learning the ropes. In other industries a manager would be given practical help. In football he's given a budget and that's about it. I wonder how many potentially good football managers have been lost thru this sink or swim approach. Yes, we could do with a fitness coach, a dedicated defensive coach, a contracts guru etc. Possibly thru lack of finance that's not on. Meantime Doolan just has to get on with things. We all hope he succeeds but we probably ask a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: McCall was sacked for not being in a position to get us promoted This was a target set by a previous Board - the New Board for some strange reason knowing the Finances from the previous Board they had inherited-took the bizarre decision- that the previous Boards logic and targets were realistic regards Football- knowing nothing of the previous discussions ( which seemed a bit too convenient in my view) It was then leaked out that McCall had a large player budget ( we have no idea of this was true or not ) it was then leaked out that “ how he spoke to the press” was an issue - there was a drip drip drip of attacks on McCall from “ influential fans” who seem to have a lot of say & a lot of knowledge on the running of PTFC the Nett Result was a desperation to sack him - and a dislike by certain groups which exists to this day - there were those involved in the decision who had there own Agenda - nothing to do with McCall's performance as a Manager they got the guy to give a rousing speech to supporters in hospitality as Directors stood and watched - known he had been sacked- why would you do that ? Anyone involved in the whole affair should be no where near the Club Managers get sacked - that's Football but the whole petty minded vendetta stinks to high heaven and says a lot of the Bowling Club Culture of Fan Ownership I think you have responded to the wrong post. Mine had nothing to do with McCall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 4 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: I think you have responded to the wrong post. Mine had nothing to do with McCall. Nope - my post is correct Im comparing the targets set by a Jlo Board - which the replacement Board very strangely took on as accurate ( despite finding out that the Finances were a carcrash ) so why would a Board accept any targets on any level from the previous Board ? So they were selective ref Football Targets to measure McCall against -and sack him for not meeting someone elses flawed targets ? Compare that to the target for Dools which is fair and reasonable Now if you were doing a proper comparison That McCall had a higher budget is offset by the fact he got Rangers in the Cup which more than offset his higher budget ( the fact other aspects meant the Club was Bankrupt was not his issue ) When you start targeting people and have an agenda - it becomes a Culture - the sacking of McCall in the manner it was- and the Chairman later -are not normal behaviour for a Football Club and unprecedented Which goes back to my key concern about Fan Ownership where small cabals end up making important decisions about the Club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 I agree about the players fitness and that is one area that a change in the coaching team could help. I also have concerns about recruitment and in game tactics. I don't think a DoF or head of recruitment is needed or something we can afford (and please no-one say what about McCall, good or bad he's gone we move on) but perhaps we need to look again at our scouting approach However the biggest miss for me is someone to help advise Doolan during a game on how to change tactics to impact the game. We may lack fitness but there are still ways of changing formations, utilising subs and changing tactics that we don't seem to be doing. I'm not so sure McDonald is that person and part of me wonders is we have the answer with us already. We have a successful Women's team is it possible one of the coaches there could contribute something to the Men's matchday? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 23 minutes ago, laukat said: I agree about the players fitness and that is one area that a change in the coaching team could help. I also have concerns about recruitment and in game tactics. I don't think a DoF or head of recruitment is needed or something we can afford (and please no-one say what about McCall, good or bad he's gone we move on) but perhaps we need to look again at our scouting approach However the biggest miss for me is someone to help advise Doolan during a game on how to change tactics to impact the game. We may lack fitness but there are still ways of changing formations, utilising subs and changing tactics that we don't seem to be doing. I'm not so sure McDonald is that person and part of me wonders is we have the answer with us already. We have a successful Women's team is it possible one of the coaches there could contribute something to the Men's matchday? Agreed apart from someone from the Woman's Team being able to Coach the Men's Team - the levels are not comparable & the required fitness levels in the Men's Team are far higher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 5 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Agreed apart from someone from the Woman's Team being able to Coach the Men's Team - the levels are not comparable & the required fitness levels in the Men's Team are far higher Surely the "level" of fitness attained is down to the player and not the coach. Or do you think someone coaching women would not be capable of coaching men? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 12 minutes ago, scotty said: Surely the "level" of fitness attained is down to the player and not the coach. Or do you think someone coaching women would not be capable of coaching men? No - I don't think someone Coaching Women can Coach Men There is no comparison on Strength - Muscle Mass etc etc between Men & Women so you have to have experience in Mens Coaching to be able to know the targets you are to expect Yes to an extent your correct ref Player Fitness being personal - however the danger of a Player doing his own thing is that they go to the Gym and push weights and avoid Cardio as they don't like Running and funny enough we are a Sport which involves a lot of Running Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 All these coaches we need how do we fund them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Agreed apart from someone from the Woman's Team being able to Coach the Men's Team - the levels are not comparable & the required fitness levels in the Men's Team are far higher I wasn't so much thinking of the Women's team coaches for fitness but perhaps they could be on the touchline/in the stand and offer tactical advice to Doolan during a Men's match? Spotting what's going wrong and how to address it should be fairly similar in nature between both forms. Not sure what gets done by the coaching team post game but I would hope they re-watch the game and understand what the coaching team could have done differently. Bringing someone who wasn't involved with the match might offer a different assessment. Don't think this necessarily would be huge cost as you would be offering an opportunity to the Women's coaching team to gain experience. Alternative is we get an experienced ex-coach/ex-manager as a 'consultant' and pay them on a game by game basis to see what its brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Nope - my post is correct Im comparing the targets set by a Jlo Board - which the replacement Board very strangely took on as accurate ( despite finding out that the Finances were a carcrash ) so why would a Board accept any targets on any level from the previous Board ? So they were selective ref Football Targets to measure McCall against -and sack him for not meeting someone elses flawed targets ? Compare that to the target for Dools which is fair and reasonable Now if you were doing a proper comparison That McCall had a higher budget is offset by the fact he got Rangers in the Cup which more than offset his higher budget ( the fact other aspects meant the Club was Bankrupt was not his issue ) When you start targeting people and have an agenda - it becomes a Culture - the sacking of McCall in the manner it was- and the Chairman later -are not normal behaviour for a Football Club and unprecedented Which goes back to my key concern about Fan Ownership where small cabals end up making important decisions about the Club Knock yourself out. Mine had nothing to do with McCall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, laukat said: I wasn't so much thinking of the Women's team coaches for fitness but perhaps they could be on the touchline/in the stand and offer tactical advice to Doolan during a Men's match? Spotting what's going wrong and how to address it should be fairly similar in nature between both forms. Not sure what gets done by the coaching team post game but I would hope they re-watch the game and understand what the coaching team could have done differently. Bringing someone who wasn't involved with the match might offer a different assessment. Don't think this necessarily would be huge cost as you would be offering an opportunity to the Women's coaching team to gain experience. Alternative is we get an experienced ex-coach/ex-manager as a 'consultant' and pay them on a game by game basis to see what its brings. Harsh Reality is that the Women's Team Play in essentially Amateur Leagues its not comparable to top end Championship Competitive levels where the Game is Faster & More Physical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 25 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: Knock yourself out. Mine had nothing to do with McCall. Well it did As it shows Dools has a realistic target & expectations ( as it should be ) It demonstrated the ridiculous double standards that operated against the previous Manager ( including Directors on the Current Board ) A Replacement Board last January that inherited a Carcrash on Finances from the previous Board ( despite an AGM in November stating we were a going concern ) - yet the same Replacement Board happy to accept verbatim from the same previous Board- that the Football Targets ( & Football Budgets to attain them ) were reasonable What absolute Hypocrisy on every level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 Can I just put on the record that, to the best of my awareness, of the Club's leadership group as it stood in February 2023, probably zero of them had attended Munns as frequently as Jim himself did in season 2022-23? As a reminder, the Club's leadership group at that time consisted of: Duncan Smillie, Richard Beastall, Fergus MacLennan, Caroline Mackie and CEO Gerry Britton. Not, I'd suggest, a group of people overall with especially strong emotional attachment to or against the management team. Jim would have you believe that "a wee clique from Munns and Twitter" were responsible for McCall's dismissal. The reality is much more prosaic: he was on a bad run, had fallen out of the play-offs and the Club Board at the time concluded there was a better prospect of reaching the play-offs with someone else in charge, and said so publicly. You can agree or disagree about that, but it's laughable to suggest there was a conspiracy around this considering the news caught absolutely everyone, including those supposedly "close to the Club" by surprise in the hours following the Rangers game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: All these coaches we need how do we fund them? A third tranche? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb1876 Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 52 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: A third tranche? You might need the wee coat emoji mentioning that 😉😁 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 41 minutes ago, sb1876 said: You might need the wee coat emoji mentioning that 😉😁 You mean a tranche coat. 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 4 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Well it did As it shows Dools has a realistic target & expectations ( as it should be ) It demonstrated the ridiculous double standards that operated against the previous Manager ( including Directors on the Current Board ) A Replacement Board last January that inherited a Carcrash on Finances from the previous Board ( despite an AGM in November stating we were a going concern ) - yet the same Replacement Board happy to accept verbatim from the same previous Board- that the Football Targets ( & Football Budgets to attain them ) were reasonable What absolute Hypocrisy on every level Don’t try and tell me what my post was about. It had nothing to do with McCall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 (edited) 20 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So I take it you have never watched Barca ? They run ( at pace) for 90 minutes - there movement off the ball is constant - there fitness levels are that of a 10,000m Runner If your flagging earlier -its down to fitness - you lose pace -and you lose concentration because your in Oxygen Debt ( less Oxygen to the Calves -less Oxygen to the Brian ) - you then lose Goals as a result Jim they have the ball, they let the ball do the work for them. We end up chasing it which as any footballer will tell you takes more energy both physically and mentally Plus Barca have a state of the art training facility, employ a team of sport scientists, nutritionists, physio’s, coaches for every aspect of the game, their back room wage is probably on a par with the value of our club Edited February 26 by Norgethistle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 10 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said: I actually think that Brownlie is as big a miss. During the run in he was very solid at left centre back when Holt had to move to left back. Probably agree with that , hindsight being a great thing I would have also offered Danny Mullen a deal , might not have started every week but better than Adenoye by a country mile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Norgethistle said: Jim they have the ball, they let the ball do the work for them. We end up chasing it which as any footballer will tell you takes more energy both physically and mentally Plus Barca have a state of the art training facility, employ a team of sport scientists, nutritionists, physio’s, coaches for every aspect of the game, their back room wage is probably on a par with the value of our club First we don't have the Players with the Skill Level to make the ball work for us nor do we decent playing surfaces at our level for that to be possible Second - No you dont need the Barca Facilities to be as fit as Barca - you have Cleveden Hill and you have Maryhill Park Red Blaze Track - thats it - everything is there and its Free There is No Reason not to be as fit as Barca - None Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 8 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: First we don't have the Players with the Skill Level to make the ball work for us nor do we decent playing surfaces at our level for that to be possible Unless I'm misunderstanding Norge's post he's surely talking in relative terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 7 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: Can I just put on the record that, to the best of my awareness, of the Club's leadership group as it stood in February 2023, probably zero of them had attended Munns as frequently as Jim himself did in season 2022-23? As a reminder, the Club's leadership group at that time consisted of: Duncan Smillie, Richard Beastall, Fergus MacLennan, Caroline Mackie and CEO Gerry Britton. Not, I'd suggest, a group of people overall with especially strong emotional attachment to or against the management team. Jim would have you believe that "a wee clique from Munns and Twitter" were responsible for McCall's dismissal. The reality is much more prosaic: he was on a bad run, had fallen out of the play-offs and the Club Board at the time concluded there was a better prospect of reaching the play-offs with someone else in charge, and said so publicly. You can agree or disagree about that, but it's laughable to suggest there was a conspiracy around this considering the news caught absolutely everyone, including those supposedly "close to the Club" by surprise in the hours following the Rangers game. First Given I don't drink -I can count on the one hand the amount of times Ive been in Munns in the last few Seasons There was certainly info from inside the Club on how McCall had been “ warned about how he spoke to the press “ in the run up to his sacking -and yes that was being given out to “ influential fans” so was there a conspiracy - there was certainly a clear message and numerous influential fans being “ on message” that he should be sacked - the way it happened was the “ surprise” not the fact it happened as it was being built up in previous weeks and a clear message being sent out via “ trusted sources” Was there those on the Board with there own Agenda -regards removing McCall - Yes But ultimately he was sacked for being 10 points off the League Leaders as the previous Board ( from what we are supposed to believe ) had his target as Promotion - he was a point off the play offs So the Board were only too happy to run with the previous Boards targets - I suppose if you didn't think that due diligence was required for Share Transfer that makes sense to accept everything the previous Board said was 100% accurate After he was sacked potential investors were being told his budget spend was a reason for our Financial Black Hole It suited lots of people to get rid of McCall and your very naive if you think it was just Football As for throwing people under a Bus - that squishing sound you heard at the AGM was TJF going under the Wheels -when it was stated “ that the Trusts were involved in all steps of Tranche 1 negotiations” Whatismore - the Two TJF Directors sat there at the Top Table -.No Correction - the Two TJF Reps sat there - didn't say a Word - but you have your agreement signed - so who cares Any Fans organisation who thinks the manner in which McCall was treated was OK - and goes along with it -you have to ask questions of - any fan organisation who sat there and let there statements be contradicted has no pride Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 8 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: Unless I'm misunderstanding Norge's post he's surely talking in relative terms. Getting the Ball on the deck in the Championship is an Urban Myth - this was Jackie Macs Mantra - hence why it took Archie to get us promoted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, Jordanhill Jag said: First Given I don't drink -I can count on the one hand the amount of times Ive been in Munns in the last few Seasons My point exactly. You were there for one of the playoff games. We had a conversation! 1 minute ago, Jordanhill Jag said: There was certainly info from inside the Club on how McCall had been “ warned about how he spoke to the press “ in the run up to his sacking -and yes that was being given out to “ influential fans” so was there a conspiracy - there was certainly a clear message and numerous influential fans being “ on message” that he should be sacked - the way it happened was the “ surprise” not the fact it happened as it was being built up in previous weeks and a clear message being sent out via “ trusted sources” Name names or stop talking rubbish. 1 minute ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Was there those on the Board with there own Agenda -regards removing McCall - Yes But ultimately he was sacked for being 10 points off the League Leaders as the previous Board ( from what we are supposed to believe ) had his target as Promotion - he was a point off the play offs If you’re not in the playoffs you can’t win promotion. They concluded there was a better chance of promotion with Doolan than McCall. Whilst unfalsifiable because counterfactuals literally are unprovable this was a perfectly respectable position to arrive at, bearing in mind he had in recent weeks lost to the two teams who eventually got relegated and he had presided over the Club dropping to 5th place. 1 minute ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So the Board were only too happy to run with the previous Boards targets - I suppose if you didn't think that due diligence was required for Share Transfer that makes sense to accept everything the previous Board said was 100% accurate This makes no sense Jim. Just because the old board were wrong about some things doesn’t suddenly mean that the footballing expectations for a football budget that was fully honoured should suddenly be cast aside. 1 minute ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Any Fans organisation who thinks the manner in which McCall was treated was OK - and goes along with it -you have to ask questions of - any fan organisation who sat there and let there statements be contradicted has no pride TJF was very clear that it found the timing of the announcement to be far from satisfactory. On that side of things you will hear no dispute. But the decision about whether to relieve McCall of his duties was, rightly, one for the Club Board and not for any fan group. On this point I speak purely as a fan of the football club when I say I believe there were valid footballing reasons for him being moved on. You can’t see that because you’re blinded by the fact he’s your mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 17 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: My point exactly. You were there for one of the playoff games. We had a conversation! Name names or stop talking rubbish. If you’re not in the playoffs you can’t win promotion. They concluded there was a better chance of promotion with Doolan than McCall. Whilst unfalsifiable because counterfactuals literally are unprovable this was a perfectly respectable position to arrive at, bearing in mind he had in recent weeks lost to the two teams who eventually got relegated and he had presided over the Club dropping to 5th place. This makes no sense Jim. Just because the old board were wrong about some things doesn’t suddenly mean that the footballing expectations for a football budget that was fully honoured should suddenly be cast aside. TJF was very clear that it found the timing of the announcement to be far from satisfactory. On that side of things you will hear no dispute. But the decision about whether to relieve McCall of his duties was, rightly, one for the Club Board and not for any fan group. On this point I speak purely as a fan of the football club when I say I believe there were valid footballing reasons for him being moved on. You can’t see that because you’re blinded by the fact he’s your mate. Im not concerned if you believe me or not that there were “ leaks” prior to him being sacked -as part of a build up -and Im certainly not going to “ name names” on a Fans Forum And your being very naive if you think it was purely Football - ref the “ timing” you cannot seriously believe that the desperation to sack him that day- did not have the aura of vindictiveness around it -nor can you seriously believe that every person on that Board simply did it “ for the good of PTFC” -my arse As for previous Boards Targets and objectives - you mean the Board that the Fans including TJF Directors were on the Canal Bank Protesting about - the one we inherited £600K of debt from - but hey they defo got the Targets for McCall Right and his player budget was accurate ( and who confirmed that exactly ? ) - have you ever considered for one minute what it was like trying to get your team to perform on the park -under all that insanity ? No one said it was for a Fan Group to decide on the Football Manager - but a Fan Group can decide if the Directors treated the Manager with respect and decency when they did it -and make decisions regards electing a Board at the AGM And the same Fan Group can decide if it has been treated with respect when its statements are contradicted at the AGM - me I would be livid - but thats just me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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