Jordanhill Jag Posted February 5 Report Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said: My point here, of course, is that people should at least do their homework on the women’s team, so that they understand what the cost is to the Club of it being run, before calling for it to be scrapped on cost grounds. This isn’t difficult to do, precisely because under fan ownership there is much more financial information about the Club in the public domain. Is it perfect levels of disclosure? No, probably not. I still think Morton are doing a better job than us at presenting and explaining their finances to supporters, for example. But it’s night and day from the era in which fans found out almost nothing about the Club’s financial position unless they were a shareholder or director, or via word of mouth. Given the level of subsidy that the Club provides - any changes would not result in it being scrapped - thats over dramatic - it might reduce there Playing levels - but its not going to scrap it The women's team existed for a number of years before the Club started giving it cash We do have an issue - we run at a significant loss - reductions have to come from somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 5 Author Report Share Posted February 5 This thread has taken a very depressing turn….. though I do remember us winning the premiership before we had a women’s team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted February 5 Report Share Posted February 5 8 minutes ago, javeajag said: This thread has taken a very depressing turn….. though I do remember us winning the premiership before we had a women’s team If only. Sighs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 5 Report Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: If its a separate organisation with its own Board & its own income stream - and existed as such for a number of Years - why have we suddenly merged the Accounts and who took that decision Im assuming TJF were consulted & agreed As explained in our reflections piece on the draft annual accounts, the inclusion of the women's team's financial activities in the Club accounts was taken following discussions between the Club Board and the auditors. The TJF board, very obviously, was not involved in those discussions. It's not our responsibility to prepare the Club's financial accounts. It's the Club Board and auditors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 5 Report Share Posted February 5 21 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: As explained in our reflections piece on the draft annual accounts, the inclusion of the women's team's financial activities in the Club accounts was taken following discussions between the Club Board and the auditors. The TJF board, very obviously, was not involved in those discussions. It's not our responsibility to prepare the Club's financial accounts. It's the Club Board and auditors. Ok noted - I did not say that TJF were involved - I said that I assumed - which left the statement open to be corrected ( as you have done ) And given the level of involvement by TJF in Club finances the assumption was not unreasonable obviously I will seek further clarification at the AGM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: If its a separate organisation with its own Board & its own income stream - and existed as such for a number of Years - why have we suddenly merged the Accounts and who took that decision Im assuming TJF were consulted & agreed What we now have is a separate organisation within the Club - making financial decisions -that could impact on Club Losses which the Club underwrites However small - good Corporate Governance does not have a separate Board -making decisions that affect your bottom line - nor is there any valid reason for this to be the case Don't you mean, more to the point, what is Plan B for the women's team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 8 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: As explained in our reflections piece on the draft annual accounts, the inclusion of the women's team's financial activities in the Club accounts was taken following discussions between the Club Board and the auditors. The TJF board, very obviously, was not involved in those discussions. It's not our responsibility to prepare the Club's financial accounts. It's the Club Board and auditors. Is it not a significant enough decision that should have been discussed with the trustees and the financial implications talked through. I know that TJF highlighted the impact on 23/24 results. What about going forward ? What is the worst case scenario eg if they get relegated ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erty13 Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 Auditors do not tell you to make the change to incorporate the ladies team.They can only confirm that the change is OK to do, or facilitate the change. The decision was made by someone on the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 11 minutes ago, erty13 said: Auditors do not tell you to make the change to incorporate the ladies team.They can only confirm that the change is OK to do, or facilitate the change. The decision was made by someone on the board. Which is precisely what WJ said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Lenziejag said: Is it not a significant enough decision that should have been discussed with the trustees and the financial implications talked through. I know that TJF highlighted the impact on 23/24 results. What about going forward ? What is the worst case scenario eg if they get relegated ? Significant or not -its a change to the structure of the Club - the Woman's Team and the associated potential future debts are now part of PTFC - you don't make changes to the Club without Shareholder Approval The Club Board do not Control the expenditure of the Woman's Team - it creates additional risk for no real benefit The Woman's Team finances operated fine for years without being merged into the Club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiledjag Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 Notwithstanding issues related to how we got into a position from breakeven to incurring substantial losses I thought the statement by the chairman was positive. To me it represents a realistic appraisal of what we need to do to resolve our current financial difficulties while also projecting a way forward. So dealing with the past and planning for the future. At least it suggests that the club have a handle on things and instead of just stumbling along have a plan to address the issues and move forward. My only reservation is that I would have liked to have seen some emphasis on increasing our commercial revenue as a means of clawing back some of the deficit as any success here would reduce the cost cutting requirement of 20%. Also more emphasis on improving our style of play to a more direct attacking style would I am sure increase attendance figures which of course results in more revenue. The fact that we are still in existence and looking forward is something from which we can all draw comfort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 7 hours ago, Jaggernaut said: Don't you mean, more to the point, what is Plan B for the women's team? No - its about a Plan B for the Club not the Woman's Team - we run at a significant loss We just cut the Playing Squad by 8 to save cash - we are left with one keeper - one left back - the cash could help fund an additional player at these positions If we don't address the losses & we cant realistically cut the Playing Squad further - then its staff cuts - the Cash given to the Woman's Team is someone at the Clubs wages & job security Its a question of priorities of limited funds - playing squad - club staff job security - or the Woman's Team its not about of you support the idea of a Woman's Team or not -its can the Club afford to help fund it If not -the Womans Team simply adjust there budget and play at a level they can afford to fund Im not sure why this is even being questioned - its simple arithmetic - our finances don't stack up so you need to stop spending money you don't have or you go bust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 The women’s team is a distraction which detracts from the bigger and more important issues. Spend nothing on the women’s team we are still losing money. why is it with income of £3.2m we find it soo hard to only spend £3.1m ? it’s not complicated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 4 minutes ago, javeajag said: The women’s team is a distraction which detracts from the bigger and more important issues. Spend nothing on the women’s team we are still losing money. why is it with income of £3.2m we find it soo hard to only spend £3.1m ? it’s not complicated. Yet almost every professional club in Scotland ( and England ) is in debt/Does not make a profit. Why? They stretch the budget to compete as best they possibly can, which of course usually means a loss. We all agree it's not sustainable over a period of time, but it happens and has happened for many years. The trick is to remain in the black while being competitive. Few achieve it so.....it is in fact complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 38 minutes ago, dl1971 said: Yet almost every professional club in Scotland ( and England ) is in debt/Does not make a profit. Why? They stretch the budget to compete as best they possibly can, which of course usually means a loss. We all agree it's not sustainable over a period of time, but it happens and has happened for many years. The trick is to remain in the black while being competitive. Few achieve it so.....it is in fact complicated. I’ll start by getting you to provide your evidence that almost every club in Scotland and England is in debt or doesn’t make a profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 44 minutes ago, javeajag said: The women’s team is a distraction which detracts from the bigger and more important issues. Spend nothing on the women’s team we are still losing money. why is it with income of £3.2m we find it soo hard to only spend £3.1m ? it’s not complicated. Because the income is highly dependent on results, both in terms of prize money and (to a lesser extent) gate receipts. Reducing the expenditure has a direct effect on perfromance and therefore income. Finding the right balance is indeed rather complicated and largely involved an element of guesswork (i.e., will the expenditure on a striker yield at least an improvement of one league place and therefore be cost-neutral or will he get injured in his first match). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 4 minutes ago, Duke Gekantawa said: Because the income is highly dependent on results, both in terms of prize money and (to a lesser extent) gate receipts. Reducing the expenditure has a direct effect on perfromance and therefore income. Finding the right balance is indeed rather complicated and largely involved an element of guesswork (i.e., will the expenditure on a striker yield at least an improvement of one league place and therefore be cost-neutral or will he get injured in his first match). I think that’s called budgeting …. You make assumptions and if they are out you adjust your costs… funnily enough just what we have done . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 7 minutes ago, javeajag said: I think that’s called budgeting …. You make assumptions and if they are out you adjust your costs… funnily enough just what we have done . I agree- I just disagree with your previous assersion that this is not complicated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Duke Gekantawa said: I agree- I just disagree with your previous assersion that this is not complicated. The ability of people to make the simple complicated is endless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 3 minutes ago, javeajag said: The ability of people to make the simple complicated is endless. I’ve always found the opposite to be true- the propensity of people to believe that the complicated is simple is all too prevalent. The rise of populism politics and anti-expert/anti-science opinion bears this out sadly. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 6 Author Report Share Posted February 6 31 minutes ago, Duke Gekantawa said: I’ve always found the opposite to be true- the propensity of people to believe that the complicated is simple is all too prevalent. The rise of populism politics and anti-expert/anti-science opinion bears this out sadly. I think the current AI situation proves my point. As do Brentford , Bournemouth etc breaking a business even with a turnover of £3.2m and literally 2,3 or 4 variables … that’s easily doable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 11 minutes ago, javeajag said: I think the current AI situation proves my point. As do Brentford , Bournemouth etc breaking a business even with a turnover of £3.2m and literally 2,3 or 4 variables … that’s easily doable The fact that something can be done does not make it easy. For every Brentford and Bournemouth, there are many clubs making an arse of it. Maybe Brentford and Bournemouth have real talent in their boardroom, who are able to do the complicated well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 2 hours ago, javeajag said: I’ll start by getting you to provide your evidence that almost every club in Scotland and England is in debt or doesn’t make a profit. Don't have that particular spreadsheet to hand, but it's fairly well documented....that the vast majority of clubs struggle financially. Do you have evidence to the contrary ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Duke Gekantawa said: I’ve always found the opposite to be true- the propensity of people to believe that the complicated is simple is all too prevalent. The rise of populism politics and anti-expert/anti-science opinion bears this out sadly. I tend to agree although returning to the management of our club I find the number of bodies involved and company structure a little more complex than I would have thought necessary for something of this size. I suspect some of this will simplify over time now as fan ownership should provide a longer term framework for improvement but from my limited view it does appear that we are setup more like a public body rather than a small/medium sized company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 6 Report Share Posted February 6 6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Significant or not -its a change to the structure of the Club - the Woman's Team and the associated potential future debts are now part of PTFC - you don't make changes to the Club without Shareholder Approval The Club Board do not Control the expenditure of the Woman's Team - it creates additional risk for no real benefit The Woman's Team finances operated fine for years without being merged into the Club I don’t think we are out of sync on this issue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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