Jags Trust Announcment

[falklandal1]

Rarely post on matters Jags Trust, however, I'm really disappointed it has come to this though fully understanding of the decisions.

 

Thanks to three absolute gentlemen for their considerable efforts over the last 18 months without which both Trust and club would have been a far poorer place.

 

My JT membership had expired and it was only last week I'd mentioned to Tom about rejoining - but now the only three reasons for me to do so have gone.

 

Enjoy being "just" fans, David, Graeme and Tom and thanks again.

 

very well put,in the same boat,will have to channel my cash into the club a different way

[Steven H]

A year and a half ago, I put myself forward for election to the Jags Trust Board. The membership and wider support had been divided by a number of core issues, many of which were crises of identity and of purpose. Perhaps I went into it naively, but I truly believed that, despite the critical situation, a set of keen and dedicated fans could work constructively to make the Jags Trust more than just a talking shop; rather a proactive and involving Supporters' Association, greater than the sum of its parts, raising money for the Club, with everyone pulling in the same direction whilst addressing the fundamental problems with the way Club and Trust are run.

 

The first year was tentative, but it appeared as though the ship was steadied. Events have, however, more than overtaken themselves, and we needed to show that we, as a Trust, were capable of adapting to the new territory. New ideas weren't exactly growing on trees, but the few ideas that were put forward were met with (admittedly understandable) resistance from some quarters. The resignations of Tom and David are regrettable: both, I felt, were the impetus behind what few new core ideas we had, and were the two people the wider fan-base felt they could unite behind. That is not to say that any individual is bigger than the Supporters' Association, but a combination of lack of constructive feedback and support for their ideas, and the absence of any meaningful alternative, means that I can't honestly continue to say that the Supporters' Trust is an effective way the fans can engage with the Club. I am as much to blame as anyone else for the lack of ideas, and I just don't have the enthusiasm to continue to dedicate my time to a movement that hasn't (for whatever reasons) learned from its past difficulties. Other personal commitments mean that even if I did have that enthusiasm, I don't think I could do the position justice.

 

I wish those of you who remain the very best, and I hope they can salvage something and find a way to work with the Club in the pursuit of a common interest, but for the above reasons, I won't be playing an active role in their efforts.

 

Graeme Cowie

 

Let me start by saying a big thank you to all 3, they were a big reason for me taking a vested interest in the JT and I think they will be a big loss...as far as I can gather they will be joining a large list of people who can be similarly described.

 

That brings me to my thoughts, how can so many people in at least 2 different incarnations of the Jags Trust Board leave citing the same reasons while certain others appear to have been there or thereabouts for what seems like the whole life of the Trust? I agreed when the CLub Board ditched the deadwood, and I agreed when there were sugestions on here that the Jags Trust should do the same thing...I didn't expect Tom and David to be the ones resigning from the JTB tho.

 

Greame, re the bit I have put in bold, what were the new ideas? What was the 'understandable resistance' to them and who were the resisting voices? I understand if you choose not to answer, but imo enough is enough and if folk within are not prepared to accept change was an absolute necessity then I assume those folk are still there and need to be held accountable for their actions (whether folk agree with them or not, a wee bit of clarity would be nice).

 

David, I am reading between the lines here and probably getting 55 when I put 2 and 2 together, but does this have anything to do with your proposed response to the questions put to you in the Q&A thread?

 

Tom, I know we were along similar lines with our thoughts on the future direction of the JT a while ago (a long time ago actually now that I think on it) and I'm sorry to see you go.

 

Finally I have a feeling there was, and would have continued to be, growing support for the direction you guys were trying to take the JT in. I think a lot of JT members (particularly the new/returning members who have joined up this year) were happy with the progress being made but, as others have said, the Jags Trust Board is a weaker one due to this news.

 

IMHO it's time to take Old Yeller out the back and shoot it, it's almost game over for the Trust in my eyes and I for one will no longer be beating it's drum as it seems people with a bit of initiative and forward thinking ideas are being let down by whoever is putting up the resistance.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Steven H

[Paddy Thistle]

Sounds like the Peden clan and followers/NW cronies have taken over the ship again How soon can an EGM be called to vote them out and return others in their place ?

 

Junior, this is nothing new if you take it back to the 80's it was the exact same faces in the supporters association as there is today, new faces would come along try and change things but would get voted down by these same old faces. So people just got fed up with it and resigned

 

The biggest change was when Jim Brown etc came along and eventually the Partick Thistle Supporters Federation was founded to replace the association, so you had a new organsition with a large number of new people. Along came the first AGM the NW bus had nominated people for nearly every position, they came along enbloc and voted all their guys on to the committee and everything was back to square one again.

 

Nothing has ever changed in over 25 years with the supporters assocation in which ever guise it has had.

 

It needs gutting and completely revamping with the old politburo having to step aside.

Twenty five years ago too much time is spent on things like constitutions and discussing why things cannot be done rather than trying to do things. I guess it hasnt changed either with the Jags Trust

Edited November 2, 2010 by Paddy Thistle

[Third Lanark]

David, Tom and Graeme, a big thank you for all your hard work with the Trust.

 

Sorry to hear you guys are leaving. Hopefully you are not put off from attending Firhill.

[Woodstock Jag]

Graeme, re the bit I have put in bold, what were the new ideas? What was the 'understandable resistance' to them and who were the resisting voices?

 

The details are less important, but the emphasis was the change in outlook: the way we engage with supporters: what it means to be a member of the SA; the way we wanted to change the meaning of the Supporters' Trust: as Tom put it give fans no excuse not to be a member, and to take an interest in the way their Club is being run. Too much time was spent worrying about preserving the existence of the Trust and not enough on making sure that its continued existence counted for something.

 

The problem was as much apathy towards a new approach rather than opposition. If the Trust Board as a whole couldn't itself enthuse about such fundamental changes, it's inconceivable to think that it could begin to sell that to its membership.

[B.C.G. JAG]

Junior, this is nothing you if you take it back to the 80's it was the exact same faces in the supporters association as there is today, new faces would come along try and change things but would get voted down by these same old faces. So people just got fed up with it.

 

The biggest change was when Jim Brown etc came along and eventually the Partick Thistle Supporters Federation was founded to replace the association, so you had a new organsition with a large number of new people. Along came the first AGM the NW bus had nominated people for nearly every position, they came along enbloc and voted all their guys on to the committee and everything was back to square one again.

 

Nothing has ever changed in over 25 years with the supporters

 

We need an EGM and we all need to show up to vote them off in a vote of no confidence. I would hope that at least some of those who felt compelled to resign might be tempted back if we could remove those that are destroying the Trust. Enough is enough, it seems that no-one from the stands or the board can work with them so it is time they went, forcibly if necessary. We cannot afford to have such an ineffectual Trust at this critical time in the Club's history. Get them out now!

[Mr Scruff]

The details are less important, but the emphasis was the change in outlook: the way we engage with supporters: what it means to be a member of the SA; the way we wanted to change the meaning of the Supporters' Trust: as Tom put it give fans no excuse not to be a member, and to take an interest in the way their Club is being run. Too much time was spent worrying about preserving the existence of the Trust and not enough on making sure that its continued existence counted for something.

 

The problem was as much apathy towards a new approach rather than opposition. If the Trust Board as a whole couldn't itself enthuse about such fundamental changes, it's inconceivable to think that it could begin to sell that to its membership.

The troubling thing here is the scale of the problem. For 3 of you to leave simultaneously for similar reasons suggests that something is indeed rotten in the state of Denmark.

 

I tell you what would be really helpful - some frank talking on where the problem actually lies. For the enthusiasm you each showed (and professionalism) over the last 18 months to be sapped by apathy from 'The Trust Board' is actually very scary, and simply reinforces the thought that maybe this is beyond saving.

 

If not this Trust, then what? Can it be wound up with the shares being transferred?

Edited November 2, 2010 by Mr Scruff

[Steven H]

The details are less important, but the emphasis was the change in outlook: the way we engage with supporters: what it means to be a member of the SA; the way we wanted to change the meaning of the Supporters' Trust: as Tom put it give fans no excuse not to be a member, and to take an interest in the way their Club is being run. Too much time was spent worrying about preserving the existence of the Trust and not enough on making sure that its continued existence counted for something.

 

The problem was as much apathy towards a new approach rather than opposition. If the Trust Board as a whole couldn't itself enthuse about such fundamental changes, it's inconceivable to think that it could begin to sell that to its membership.

 

Thanks Greame, I get what you're saying (or not saying to be more accurate:P). Which leads me to say I 100% agree with this....................

 

We need an EGM and we all need to show up to vote them off in a vote of no confidence. I would hope that at least some of those who felt compelled to resign might be tempted back if we could remove those that are destroying the Trust. Enough is enough, it seems that no-one from the stands or the board can work with them so it is time they went, forcibly if necessary. We cannot afford to have such an ineffectual Trust at this critical time in the Club's history. Get them out now!

 

All who were at the open meeting recently couldn't fail to see where the problems are. Can't they see it??? Why drift along in the same vain as we had been ffs!

[honved]

Keeping it as simple as possible, for me personally the Board Rep issue was a crisis that also presented an opportunity. We no longer had anything to lose in our dealings with the club, which is why when we met with the Messrs Beattie and Alexander, we were prepared to shoot from the hip and tell them exactly what we thought of the supporters relationship with the club, rather than feeling we had to step around difficult stuff to avoid unsettling our place in the boardroom.

 

The club are still refusing a place in the boardroom for the Trust representative and I felt that the answer was not to ask for the restoration of the previous (dysfunctional in my view) arrangement, but to do something more radical and expansive which would result in the club eventually asking us back, but this time on more sensible terms. That may have taken a year or more, during which much hard work would have been needed and I will admit that some of the ideas are controversial.

 

After consultation, I didn't feel that the Trust board were ready to give such ideas their wholehearted support and without that, failure was guaranteed. I just felt that endless hand wringing about shares, Save the Jags and our right to be on the board, was not actually getting anyone anywhere in relation to supporting the club and the fans. It was time to call it a day and move on to more interesting and rewarding stuff.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

A bitter blow.

 

I'm sure this comment will be taken badly in some quarters, but those who resigned, for me, were the Trust's ideas me.

 

They were articulate, visible and reactive to the views of the wider support.

 

I'd struggle to tell you who's left on the board. A worrying portent for things to come.

[stolenscone]

David, I am reading between the lines here and probably getting 55 when I put 2 and 2 together, but does this have anything to do with your proposed response to the questions put to you in the Q&A thread?

/quote]

 

Nothing at all to do with this Steven.

 

I have limited time to devote to this. What time I have, I would prefer to use "doing" things, instead of talking about doing things in endless circles of diminishing return. As an example, the Club Board don't want the Trust's board rep to sit as a director. Regardless of how you view this turn of events, I am a pragmatist and I would much rather get on with the business of supporting the football club than get embroiled in endless and ultimately pointless discussions about things that I have no real control over.

 

I have no desire to stick the knife in to anybody -- what's the point? We are all trying to do our best for the football club. I think that I can achieve more outside the structure of the Trust. That's really all there is to say on my part.

 

The options as I see it for folk are threefold:

1. do nothing and let things drift along as they have been;

2. try to change the Trust by getting involved with it; or

3. try something different.

 

Having been guilty of taking option 1 for a long time, and been largely unsuccessful with option 2, I'm led to option 3. Sorry it's not more exciting than that!

[Mediocre Pundit]

honved, stolenscone and WJ - thank you very much for all your efforts. Like others, I thought the Open Meeting was a huge step forward and it's a real shame that all the positivity has ended so fast. And like others I can only assume that those that were most voal about the Board Rep position at the meeting were those that refused to allow the trust to move forward, leading to the resignations. That's certainly the impression I got from them at the meeting - which was not an impression that would make me renew my membership.

 

I can only hope that there is room for people like honved, stolenscone and WJ in the new Club Board, once the restructure is completed. We could certainly use people like you to help the board and, more importantly, link the board and fans together.

 

As for the JT - wind yourself up now and hand back the shares because you're just as bad an unrepresentative as Hughes and McMaster.

[Fawlty Towers]

Firstly can I say "thanks" to David, Tom & Graeme for all their efforts for the Trust and wish them all the best in the future. To clarify the situation as to who remains on the Trust Board - there is myself (Martin Towers), jags365 (Donald Larmour - Secretary), Morag McHaffie (Board Rep), Maggie Forsyth (Treasurer) & Fiona Harvey (Membership Secretary).

 

I am sure that people will have a lot of questions and will want to discuss matters, as always I shall be in the Trust kiosk prior to kick off at the Morton game on the 13th of November and would be glad to speak to anyone who wishes to come along.

 

This is a diffcult time for the Trust (I don't deny that) and I hope that you can stick with us whilst we try and gets things sorted.

 

Martin

[Mediocre Pundit]

Firstly can I say "thanks" to David, Tom & Graeme for all their efforts for the Trust and wish them all the best in the future. To clarify the situation as to who remains on the Trust Board - there is myself (Martin Towers), jags365 (Donald Larmour - Secretary), Morag McHaffie (Board Rep), Maggie Forsyth (Treasurer) & Fiona Harvey (Membership Secretary).

 

I am sure that people will have a lot of questions and will want to discuss matters, as always I shall be in the Trust kiosk prior to kick off at the Morton game on the 13th of November and would be glad to speak to anyone who wishes to come along.

 

This is a diffcult time for the Trust (I don't deny that) and I hope that you can stick with us whilst we try and gets things sorted.

 

Martin

Okay, well from what I know of the JT from the Open Meeting and online I would guess that Morag, Maggie and Fiona are the root of the problem. Although they'd probably accuse me of being sexist for saying that...

[Paddy Thistle]

 

As for the JT - wind yourself up now and hand back the shares because you're just as bad an unrepresentative as Hughes and McMaster.

Yep that pretty much sums it up

[northernsoul]

I have limited time to devote to this. What time I have, I would prefer to use "doing" things, instead of talking about doing things in endless circles of diminishing return. As an example, the Club Board don't want the Trust's board rep to sit as a director. Regardless of how you view this turn of events, I am a pragmatist and I would much rather get on with the business of supporting the football club than get embroiled in endless and ultimately pointless discussions about things that I have no real control over.

 

I have no desire to stick the knife in to anybody -- what's the point? We are all trying to do our best for the football club. I think that I can achieve more outside the structure of the Trust. That's really all there is to say on my part.

 

The options as I see it for folk are threefold:

1. do nothing and let things drift along as they have been;

2. try to change the Trust by getting involved with it; or

3. try something different.

 

Having been guilty of taking option 1 for a long time, and been largely unsuccessful with option 2, I'm led to option 3. Sorry it's not more exciting than that!

 

By "we" I assume you mean the Trust? If so, are they really? From the outside looking in it seems to me that not everyone is trying their best. Looks like the cliques are still in force and up to their old tricks.

 

As others have said, I'd like to thank those who have decided to step down for their dedication towards trying to change the Trust for the better. I thought Stolenscone spoke very well at the open meeting last month and I'm disappointed to hear of his decision.

 

I'd also like to thank David, Tom, Graeme again and whoever else who pushed through with making it abundantly clear to the club the Trust did not want Cowan and Hughes at the Club any more. For that I will always be grateful.

[Col]

Just to say thanks to David, Tom and Graeme for all their hard work and to wish them all the best for the future.

[Vom Itorium]

So after I finally feel a bit of oomph returning to the Trust and rejoining we are back in the same mire that always to seem to surface with this half-arsed operation.

 

What a waste of a tenner that was and a mistake I shall never be repeating.

[Jaggernaut]

So after I finally feel a bit of oomph returning to the Trust and rejoining we are back in the same mire that always to seem to surface with this half-arsed operation.

 

What a waste of a tenner that was and a mistake I shall never be repeating.

I'm sure that guys who've resigned have their valid reasons, some already stated on this thread. But as a brand new member, I'd like clarification on what was the new oomph. Actually, I guess attracting more new members of late is already one obvious sign of success, but is there anything else that should be made more public? No need, of course, for clarification on the procedural and existential mire that seems to have characterized the Trust for years.

[Pie Of The Month]

Okay, well from what I know of the JT from the Open Meeting and online I would guess that Morag, Maggie and Fiona are the root of the problem. Although they'd probably accuse me of being sexist for saying that...

 

If these are the people who will be leading the JT I feel rather uncomfortable about being a member as their part in that meeting was just cringeworthy to say the least.

[sandy]

Tom, David and Graeme, firstly I'm really sad it has come to this. You all have energy and enthusiasm and were starting to give the Trust credibility and momentum.

 

Not everyone likes change and I suspect you encountered the same resistance that others before you found frustrating, wearing and negative. I genuinely wish you all well in finding another outlet to help influence how our Club goes forward. I would gladly support you in this.

 

In terms of what remains of the Trust Board, perhaps it is now time for serious reflection for all of you

[Trotter]

Okay, well from what I know of the JT from the Open Meeting and online I would guess that Morag, Maggie and Fiona are the root of the problem. Although they'd probably accuse me of being sexist for saying that...

 

 

If these are the people who will be leading the JT I feel rather uncomfortable about being a member as their part in that meeting was just cringeworthy to say the least.

 

I'd second both of these as someone who is a lapsed Trust member. I went along to the open meeting with the hope that the trust were moving in the direction after maybe, imo, losing it's way after the loss of people like like Red Monkey and Fellow Traveller.

 

However, after the debacle of that meeting and the NW takeover I can't say I blame these guys for standing aside. I can't see a way forward for the Trust now. Membership secretary won't have many memberships to deal with.

[Fellow Traveller]

I don't think the Trust lost its way when the last great burst of resignations happened. The truth is it hadn't ever really found its way.

 

The significance of the 1876 merger vote wasn't about the money - under the 1876 scheme every penny was going to the club. Under the Centenary Fund, the same applied (less a few outrageous overheads). The 1876 was just a lightning rod around which we could try to generate some sparks of interest in the Trust as an entity. If people were winning decent prizes and the club was getting a flow of money and some JTB members were getting out there and hustling people to sign up, there was a chance of maybe getting some kind of momentum going. When all that was given away, though, and there was nothing offered in its place, not surprisingly everything just stalled. For me, naive and childlike as I am among all you cynical types, the real shock was how eager some of the JTB were to throw a wet blanket over everything. To this day, I honestly can't figure out what it is that scares them so much about a Trust that grows bigger and stronger and more confident in its own voice - except that it would mean that voice won't be their voice.

 

Anyway, the chance was gone and another one didn't come along until the recent removal of certain directors. It wasn't something that was brought about solely by the Trust, but it's pretty certain that their stance played a crucial role in finally pulling the rug from under these guys. And what did we see? An instant upsurge of renewed interest and support for the Trust because people could clearly see the value of having intelligent, articulate spokesmen who had the balls to finally say, "Enough."

 

And right on cue the usual suspects (with a long history of gumming up the works as mentioned by Paddy Thistle earlier in the thread) dig in their heels, spooked by the potential and mule-headed enough to wreck the whole Trust rather than step away and let it progress without them. So instead you've lost three guys that were clearly of immense value to the Trust if it was to have any chance at all of finally being useful to its members (and the club). I totally understand their frustration and know exactly how shitty and depressed they will each feel tonight, not at the loss of their personal influence, but at the waste, the terrible waste of an opportunity for all of us.

 

I hope, and fully expect, that the board of directors will look at the dismal wreckers of the JTB and cut them dead. There's got to be something better than this.

[erty13]

I also just rejoined, due to the hard work and direction put in by Tom, David and Graeme.

 

A few thoughts

 

1. How do you resign your membership to show you are not happy with the remaining board.

 

2. How quickly could another supporters association be up and running.

 

3. How long would it take to have more members than the jags trust.

 

erty13

[Jaggernaut]

I also just rejoined, due to the hard work and direction put in by Tom, David and Graeme.

 

A few thoughts

 

1. How do you resign your membership to show you are not happy with the remaining board.

 

2. How quickly could another supporters association be up and running.

 

3. How long would it take to have more members than the jags trust.

 

erty13

Did you forget?:

 

4. How long until procedural wrangling and in-fighting among the members of a new supporters association effectively caused it to implode?