jaf Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Others may disagree, but I am bemused by your insistence in defending the h u n s' long-standing efforts to gain advantage over everybody else (or maybe for personal gain by some?) by defrauding HMRC. They got "poor advice".... they were "sloppy"..... that's the kind of language that Donald Findlay himself might use as he tried to defend some blatantly guilty criminal. Ha, that's more apt than I first thought. I don't see it as a defence, more a statement of facts. Rangers were fools for using the scheme and applying it badly. That is not their most heinous crime though. That instead is wilfully running up debts by not paying over to HMRC tax as it falls due, with no plan to pay it off. This affects us all as taxpayers. I think the point JJ has tried to make is that PTFC have been in the past guilty of exactly the same crime. The difference is that we did pay it off because we got lucky and with the good grace of one other major creditor, but it is slightly hypocritical to indulge in H*n-bashing (no matter how much fun it is!!) for something we ourselves have been guilty of, under the watch of the last FD. We can laugh at the h*ns by all means for c*cking up something pretty straightforward relating to EBTs, but there but for the grace of god this could have been us, and so some of the outrage and taking of moral highground is surely a little misplaced. It is really in the interests of HMRC to play hard ball with Rangers here. If they do, it may make the next generation of companies considering EBTs if a high profile case is won by HMRC so they want this. Bad. As an aside I think HMRC should go for the jugular, and try everything they can (I also think they will) to have Rangers liquidated. The political pressure being exerted by Salmond et al is ridiculous. I hope when I send him about 70 letters from people who can't pay their tax right now and want time to pay, he will take up their cases personally on their behalf with HMRC. It makes me wonder whether a Scottish Inland Revenue would be one open to political interference and how would it function if every time a difficult decision needed made, Lord High President Salmond intervened and told the Scottish Inland Revenue to agree to take the debt over 462 years. Nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Others may disagree, but I am bemused by your insistence in defending the h u n s' long-standing efforts to gain advantage over everybody else (or maybe for personal gain by some?) by defrauding HMRC. They got "poor advice".... they were "sloppy"..... that's the kind of language that Donald Findlay himself might use as he tried to defend some blatantly guilty criminal. Ha, that's more apt than I first thought. Im not defending Im sticking to the facts they used an EBT thats in no way defrauding HOWEVER in the use of a Trust there is no gaurantee of regular payment Rangers were sloppy in its application by providing regular payments and if the stories going round are true a letter of comfort gaurantee-ing payment -other Murray Group employees were paid in a similiar vain HOWEVER they abided by the rules of the EBT. Now it doesnt fit well with the mass hysteria but the facts are the facts -the whole Murray Group was using EBTs -Celtic as a plc has to aviod risk and could not go down a similiar route. This is about arrogant and sloppy management -I have no sympathy whatsoever for Rangers FC - my arguement is that theres was a poor plan that bit them in the arse -the following quote from Billy Allan on the Jagsforum Blog says it all "the Clubs inabilty to budget (and to manage this ) has been at the root cause of our financial gaps over the last few years " as Greig said on the Blog "they couldnt budget and even when they set a budget they couldnt stick to it" now from where Im sitting having a go at a poorly managed tax strategy by Rangers looks like crass hypocrisy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blutarsky Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Also, If the loan players from the h*ns are made redundant by the Administrators, they leave us then I take it? I don't rate either of them, but it leaves us short on bodies. i'm sure i read that whyte transferred players contracts to one of his companies, giving him not the administrator or anyone else control to sell, lay off, profit etcs. i don't know if that's even possible but it fits into the general pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Im not defending Im sticking to the facts they used an EBT thats in no way defrauding HOWEVER in the use of a Trust there is no gaurantee of regular payment Rangers were sloppy in its application by providing regular payments and if the stories going round are true a letter of comfort gaurantee-ing payment -other Murray Group employees were paid in a similiar vain HOWEVER they abided by the rules of the EBT. Now it doesnt fit well with the mass hysteria but the facts are the facts -the whole Murray Group was using EBTs -Celtic as a plc has to aviod risk and could not go down a similiar route. This is about arrogant and sloppy management -I have no sympathy whatsoever for Rangers FC - my arguement is that theres was a poor plan that bit them in the arse -the following quote from Billy Allan on the Jagsforum Blog says it all "the Clubs inabilty to budget (and to manage this ) has been at the root cause of our financial gaps over the last few years " as Greig said on the Blog "they couldnt budget and even when they set a budget they couldnt stick to it" now from where Im sitting having a go at a poorly managed tax strategy by Rangers looks like crass hypocrisy The problem with those kinds of excuses (they are not "facts") becomes that almost anybody who gets done for fraud can claim "bad advice" and "sloppy" practice. There then becomes no such thing as a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillresigned Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) What is the position with Hearts and Dunfermline regarding the money owed them? If they lose out on a technicality i.e. Rangers to go bust, its hardly likely to endear Rangersto to either club. Especially since neither is particularly flush. In additioin, the trust element which even today is vital in the day to day running of sport, would take a huge dent. On the bigger picture I believe that HMRC should pursue any underpayment of tax to the nth degree, pour courage les autres. Finally, Alex Salmond, should be exceptionally wary of becoming involved in a very controversial area, in other words shut up. Edited February 16, 2012 by stillresigned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Dear Mr Salmond, I am not going to pay my taxes for the next 9 years instead going to spend it on booze, clothes & loose woman, I was advised by wee shug down the pub that this is ok, please fight my case with HMRC if this goes wrong, as you have helped out Mr Whyte. Sincerely Mr Norge Thistle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brick_top Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 I was tempted not to join in the h u n baiting, mainly as the shellik fans smugness were reaching such epic levels that I didn't want to be in the same category as them in any way. However, in work last night, hearing 2 h un mates laughing and joking because Dunfermline, Dundee utd and Hearts wouldn't now get their money, I'm in! Let the h un bashing begin! And they wonder why everyone wants them to die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jags on tour Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 watching the darts thats up in aberdeen, they've got 'we love HMRC' and 'RIP Rangers' signs.magic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) I overheard a couple of knuckle-dragging fascists at the train station last week bemoaning the financial plight of the BNP, saying that Griffin's tea's oot and blaming his 'shit or bust' approach to the last General Election. It's got me seriously considering a H un s, BNP and Thatcher treble in 2012. I'm not going to get too greedy, though, and chance a 4-timer with John Terry to get sent to the tin pail following his impending trial, appealing as that would be. Edited February 16, 2012 by Blackpool Jags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 theres within the rules the Group an EBTia The problem with those kinds of excuses (they are not "facts") becomes that almost anybody who gets done for fraud can claim "bad advice" and "sloppy" practice. There then becomes no such thing as a crime. They are facts no fraud has been committed or even suggested they like al parts on the Murray Group paid via an EBT to aviod Tax the other parts of the Group ran theres within the rules Rangers did not - this means they repay plus interest plus a fine if it was a registered EBT then tne is not draconian if can be 100% of the value avioded. on payment Thats it no fraud ,no drama simple tax strategy poorly implemeted happens all the time in business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 theres within the rules the Group an EBTia They are facts no fraud has been committed or even suggested they like al parts on the Murray Group paid via an EBT to aviod Tax the other parts of the Group ran theres within the rules Rangers did not - this means they repay plus interest plus a fine if it was a registered EBT then tne is not draconian if can be 100% of the value avioded. on payment Thats it no fraud ,no drama simple tax strategy poorly implemeted happens all the time in business Yeah, well if that's what you think, let's just leave it at that. I'd love to see them disappear off the face of the Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Actually the Orange Order etc were 100% against the Nazi and Facsist movements believing them to be part of an attempted Catholic takeover of Europe which given Bavaria is mainly Catholic were the Nazi Powerbase came from ,add in Italy and Spain and it wasnt that far from the truth -i will accept the Stone Age Bigots though As a person from the Stone Age I find that quite insulting. I may not have learned how to work metal, but I do not hate and discriminate against anyone because of their religion or lack of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collins Out! Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 The guy is a closet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 The guy is a closet. If you're referring to JJ - and I apologise profusely if you're not - then nothing could be further from the truth; that man is as dyed-in-the-wool Thistle as it's possible to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 The guy is a closet. And you? Quite simply a troll, on here to try and wind people up because you have nothing better to do with your evenings. Jordanhill Jag knows this fine well as do the rest of us, which is why you will be ignored from now on. Get a life - no one is taking the bait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagtastic Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I understand the huge stroke of luck (Harkins/Twaddle cash) allowed us to pay off the bad debt we had accrued but surely the difference between us and the Hunz is that we actually paid it off when we had funds available? We've now got their administrators saying they don't know where £24 million has gone. Why wasn't this at least used to address the £9 million in unpaid tax since Whyte took over? There's also other deals such as outsourcing of catering and the Jelavic transfer fee that brought in substantial amounts. For me it's the apparent lack of any attempt to address their tax liabilities while taking in huge amounts from deals that are visible to all, that seems most underhanded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I understand the huge stroke of luck (Harkins/Twaddle cash) allowed us to pay off the bad debt we had accrued but surely the difference between us and the Hunz is that we actually paid it off when we had funds available? We've now got their administrators saying they don't know where £24 million has gone. Why wasn't this at least used to address the £9 million in unpaid tax since Whyte took over? There's also other deals such as outsourcing of catering and the Jelavic transfer fee that brought in substantial amounts. For me it's the apparent lack of any attempt to address their tax liabilities while taking in huge amounts from deals that are visible to all, that seems most underhanded. No no no, it's all down to being poorly advised, and sloppy accounting. They really should be helped through this all, not accused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 No no no, it's all down to being poorly advised, and sloppy accounting. They really should be helped through this all, not accused. who said they should be helped? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 who said they should be helped? Me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejag Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 who said they should be helped? Of course they should be helped. A great Scottish Institution cannot afford to be let go. Scottish football needs Rangers FC, or our football will die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armand2 Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I've watched on with interest over the past few days at the happenings at Ibrox and listened to every Z-list pundit give their tuppence worth. What I can say with certainty is that I am pretty disgusted at the outpouring of sympathy for Rangers from this country. This is a club who lived outwith their means for a number of years, committing financially questionable acts, in order to gain an advantage. They have picked off the challenges of other sides by taking their better players (which is, of course, no crime) and paid ridiculous amounts to clubs to sign players who they couldn't really afford. If this was any other business, they would be ridiculed and closed down. I am repulsed by that utter fandan Salmond appealing for leniency from the HMRC, urging them to agree a settlement with a club who have broken the law. They should be pilloried but are instead being pitied. Although I acknowledge that it is perhaps the fault of certain individuals that Rangers find themselves in their current plight, the club is, by proxy, guilty of conducting morally indefensible acts and should be punished appropriately. The thing that really irritates me is the whole support and f*cking outpouring from well-wishers; if this was us, nobody would bat a bloody eyelid. In all likelihood, we would be in financial peril not because of any wrongdoing unlike Rangers who partook in illegal practices yet we would certainly have no comments from politicians, asking for compassion. No doubt, they'll be bailed out like Dundee and Livingston and allowed to continue their poisonous coalition over Scottish football. But, for now? F*ck them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I've watched on with interest over the past few days at the happenings at Ibrox and listened to every Z-list pundit give their tuppence worth. What I can say with certainty is that I am pretty disgusted at the outpouring of sympathy for Rangers from this country. This is a club who lived outwith their means for a number of years, committing financially questionable acts, in order to gain an advantage. They have picked off the challenges of other sides by taking their better players (which is, of course, no crime) and paid ridiculous amounts to clubs to sign players who they couldn't really afford. If this was any other business, they would be ridiculed and closed down. I am repulsed by that utter fandan Salmond appealing for leniency from the HMRC, urging them to agree a settlement with a club who have broken the law. They should be pilloried but are instead being pitied. Although I acknowledge that it is perhaps the fault of certain individuals that Rangers find themselves in their current plight, the club is, by proxy, guilty of conducting morally indefensible acts and should be punished appropriately. The thing that really irritates me is the whole support and f*cking outpouring from well-wishers; if this was us, nobody would bat a bloody eyelid. In all likelihood, we would be in financial peril not because of any wrongdoing unlike Rangers who partook in illegal practices yet we would certainly have no comments from politicians, asking for compassion. No doubt, they'll be bailed out like Dundee and Livingston and allowed to continue their poisonous coalition over Scottish football. But, for now? F*ck them. Excellent post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAWB Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Another H*n Bites the Dust http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnwfCg72t6g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 See Portsmouth are back in administration again.Imo instead of deducting points no matter who it is Rangers included,they should be automatically relegated and if it happens more than once to the same team put them down a few divisions or throw them out the leagues altogether.It is the only deterent imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 It looks like its going to get messy http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17079011?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sportsound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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