Jaggernaut Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 For once, Longmuir seems to get it right: splitting two leagues of 12 into three mini-leagues of 8 after 22 games is a total piece of nonsense! http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/longmuir-plan-is-convoluted-and-complicated-for-fans.19845686 He knows that fans won't like it, but whether that matters or not is another thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 It's not the lack of games that is the issue for the clubs - it is the drop in Gate revenue. I am sure that the collective could think of some other way to generate television revenue. Scottish football probably needs better negotiators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I liked the 16-10-16 SFL proposal. Only play each other twice. This season we will have played Dunfermline 5 times. A tad tedious for both teams and they are one of our main challengers. Play offs creates excitement and movement between the leagues. The middle 10 would be exciting as your either up or down a league almost. Top 16 will allow some teams to relax and play proper football and bring in youth. Bottom 16 will have the clubs that have fans in the 3 figure bracket who can be categorised in there with the odd promotion to spice things up. 30 league games. Make up the extra games with a sectional league cup where it could be split into regions to ensure derbies. Dundee/Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock/Ayr Utd, Raith/Dunfermline, Morton/St Mirren. These would be one-off cup game events. It would be a great sell. Smaller teams will also get bigger teams to help their income. The sections can be tweaked every year so different smaller teams get to play some of the bigger boys. Think of the money we would get with games against Rangers and Celtic. Yes their fans smell and they are obsessed with being victims but bums on seats gives Jackie £££££ to spend. Remember Pre-season v a Celtic XI 2 summers back had over 5000 there. Do something like rugby does with a season opener of 2 games in one stadium, Hampden, for smaller teams. Creates another experience, atmosphere and would be marketed as a family fun day with lower prices to encourage fans with profits split between all teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) It's not the lack of games that is the issue for the clubs - it is the drop in Gate revenue. I am sure that the collective could think of some other way to generate television revenue. Scottish football probably needs better negotiators. Considering our negotiators spent last summer telling everyone how sh!te their product was before entering negotiations I'd say your comment was a no-brainer. They are so stuck in the mind set that Scottish Fooball needs Old Firm games they can't see beyond their own noses (or admit that nearly all the extra money the OF generates goes to - the Old Firm). The OF with their massive (and mindless and arrogant) following can look after themselves, the football bodies main concern should be how to improve things for all the other clubs. Unfortunately that's the last thing on thier minds because that would take a wee bit of courage, drive and imagination. All things which our football adminstrators totally lack. Edited January 7, 2013 by Mr Bunny 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) First on the agenda should be the immediate dismissal of Mssrs Regan & Doncaster. Ideally follow that with Longmuir's. He's not as bad but he was party to the Sevco in the 1st Div nonsense. Further, going by his tone on the radio the other day, he's trying to persuade the SFL clubs that the 12-12-18 set up is now the only viable option. We're told constantly that the game is in financial jeopardy yet those three continue to draw fat salaries. Until we get rid of at least two of them there's little point in discussing the merits of this league system or that one. We're not being heard and any decisions they make will be based on maximum revenue over the short term with absolutely no regard to sustainability. Call me cynical but it's quick bucks these three are interested in. The only thing they want to sustain is their salary, pay offs and to make their CVs look creditable. Edited January 7, 2013 by lady-isobel-barnett 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted January 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Does anybody know if any other professional leagues have the kind of splitting into two mini-leagues, or is there anything remotely like merging two division and creating not two but three mini-leagues during a season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy davie Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Does anybody know if any other professional leagues have the kind of splitting into two mini-leagues, or is there anything remotely like merging two division and creating not two but three mini-leagues during a season? Yes - I believe the FAs of Insanistan and Delusiana have this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p12tfc Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 16 team league = 30 games Split into two leagues of 8 and play home/away = 14 games Thats a total of 44 games. The championship down south plays 46 games Whats the problem with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 16 team league = 30 games Split into two leagues of 8 and play home/away = 14 games Thats a total of 44 games. The championship down south plays 46 games Whats the problem with that? Teams with European commitments couldn't complete the fixture schedule unless they don't bother with either of the domestic cups. There simply wouldn't be enough space in the fixture schedule for Celtic should they do as well in the CL as they have this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 SPL-A and SPL-B Teams splits into SPL-1 SPL-2 and SPL-3 First up.... who ever was 5th in SPL-B at the split could be miles ahead of the relegation battle that they have nothing to play for in the remaining 14 games of SPL-3. next... who ever is 8th in SPL-A could be so far behind the european place that they have nothing to play for for the 14 fixtures in SPL-1. then there is the bottom 4 from SPL-A meeting with the top 4 from SPL-B in this middle league.... what happens if after 14 games that the top 4 in SPL-2 are the same ones that came from SPL-A and as such return to SPL-A for next season... The bottom 4 return to SPL-B for next season and hey presto, there has been no relegation or promotion to and from the top league.. You could go on, year on year with the same teams in SPL-A at the start of every season. The only change, year on year, could be the team(s) who have come up to SPL-B from the lower leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandyellowallover Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 16 team league = 30 games Split into two leagues of 8 and play home/away = 14 games Thats a total of 44 games. The championship down south plays 46 games Whats the problem with that? I think that's how the Russian League is set up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
read'n'yell Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I think from our point of view as a small/mid size full time club (I include Raith, Morton, Livi, Dunfermline, Dundee, St Mirren, Ross County, Caley (all be it doing well this season)) as small/mid sized. We will inevitably be involved almost every year in this split. Good or bad? Certainly interesting. In years when we are bottom of the SPL 1, nobody will complain; in years top of SPL 2 there will be outcry. Currently we could be 10 points clear after 22 games and still not get promoted come end of the season. At least this means we could finish fourth and get promoted - lets not forget our division two playoff victory. Personally, I feel for us this is good. Makes it interesting. Gives us a shot at bigger teams without the season long potential "doing" ala Dundee this season. Yes, I don't think it will improve the quality of football with too much competitive games early on. After the split however, the top teams can relax and make that push for europe. A greater distribution of wealth? Yes, by the sounds of it our income could double from the leagues. Plus most years facing some top tier teams. Fair promotion/relegation? No, but when was fair exciting? Most years we won't be top of SPL 2 so no need to worry, more beneficial years than not. 4 games a season? Again, for us, probably not as we will often be in this mini league so only face 3 other teams 4 times (outwith cup). Doesnt stop the monotomy at the top of the league - although these teams seem content on playing the same teams in order to get larger crowds with big teams (short sited, I know). Overall. Best for scottish football? No... Best for us? Yes So lets say YES - stop being scared of change and embrace it. We will get what we get, fans will just have to accept that. Currently, this is all thats on offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
read'n'yell Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 First up.... who ever was 5th in SPL-B at the split could be miles ahead of the relegation battle that they have nothing to play for in the remaining 14 games of SPL-3. Dundee Utd (8th) are 6 points off europe with a game in hand, Killie (7th) 4 points of euro with game in hand. next... who ever is 8th in SPL-A could be so far behind the european place that they have nothing to play for for the 14 fixtures in SPL-1. Yes, Falkirk and Livi are too far ahead for relegation. Could see crowds drop but even now Livi get awful crowds. At least they can push to win SPL 3 (even if there is no prize). They have 14 games to prepare for next season early and bring through youth/experiment. Remember before the split will be like an end of season battle that could see big big crowds if for example Falkirk Livi or Raith all have a chance at 3rd, 4th spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 So lets say YES - stop being scared of change and embrace it. We will get what we get, fans will just have to accept that. Currently, this is all thats on offer. See potty trained's post and then try and sell me a season ticket with all that uncertainty. I'm inured to less meaningful matches towards the end of a season but not in mid season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
read'n'yell Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 See potty trained's post and then try and sell me a season ticket with all that uncertainty. I'm inured to less meaningful matches towards the end of a season but not in mid season. Uncertainty? I am not following you. What "uncertainty" would put you off buying a season ticket? We watch and support football, a game, uncertainty is what we are seeking. Worst case scenario is the situation we finish 5th/6th in SPL 2. In which case the pressure is off. Outwith those two teams then the rest of the teams have games to play for. The same goes with a 16/18 team league. Come 22 games through a season do you think all 18 teams will be involved in playoff battles? No! Teams finishing 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th will effectively be in the same situation that their season is over. So what is the problem? In mid season there will not be less meaningful matches. If these teams finishing 5th 6th are that far ahead of relegation then the matches leading up to the split will have huge stakes and be exciting. As noted above, after the split will leave these 2 mid table teams no different than if we were in a 16/18 team set up apart from they will play out their remaining fixtures against teams they have already played instead of different teams. I'm playing devils advocat here a bit. Yes I would prefer a 16 team league but it isn't the holy grail scottish fans seem to think. So yes, as I said, for US it is best to have the split. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Uncertainty? I am not following you. What "uncertainty" would put you off buying a season ticket? We watch and support football, a game, uncertainty is what we are seeking. Uncertainty whether you're going to be playing meaningless games mid season. As I understand it we would play 22 games then play a further 14 games in a new league of 8. If by say game 17 of the initial league you could easily be assured of a top four finish or certain to finish in the bottom four. Games 18-22 then become academic. That's meaningless matches roughly about this time of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Yes - I believe the FAs of Insanistan and Delusiana have this. Beautiful countries, lovely people, but SHIT at footie!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Does anybody know if any other professional leagues have the kind of splitting into two mini-leagues, or is there anything remotely like merging two division and creating not two but three mini-leagues during a season? Not a professional league but the Merseyside District Water Polo league is switching to a split set up from this year. The reason for this is because there aren't enough teams for two leagues however the teams at each end of the league have very different ambitions, with the top end wanting to develop their players for national league competition and the bottom end wanting a bath and a pint, not necessarily in that order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
read'n'yell Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Uncertainty whether you're going to be playing meaningless games mid season. As I understand it we would play 22 games then play a further 14 games in a new league of 8. If by say game 17 of the initial league you could easily be assured of a top four finish or certain to finish in the bottom four. Games 18-22 then become academic. That's meaningless matches roughly about this time of the season. Would this not happen in a larger league as well? Look at Dundee. They arent going to avoid relegation and now they have meaningless games all season. Four games isn't long. Also 17 games into a season will not see teams too stretched in terms of points so with 4 games (12 points) up for grabs, I don't see there being meaningless games. I think your argument about the midway stage is strange. The split is there to give an extra boost in competitiveness half way, like two mini seasons. It does the opposite of what your unsure about. Also, I will repeat, the same scenario happens in all league set ups! In the premiership after 21 games there is 5 teams or 25% of clubs that seasons are over (Swansea to Fulham) - none will be relegated and none will get to europe. In our league of 10 after 18 games it already looks likely Falkirk Livi Raith Hamilton have nothing to play for except one perhaps pushing 3rd spot. Thats 40% of teams. I would certainly take 4 meaningless(ish) matches half way through a season rather than 14 meaningless one at the end. Not all teams can have competition all season, its not how leagues work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Probably the word "meaningless" is wrong. What will happen is what happens now with the play offs. Once a club is in the top four with no chance of winning the league they naturally rest players and/or step off the gas in preparation for the play offs. This in turn throws up daft results, which are academic to the club in the play offs but not necessarily so to their opponents.. Similarly with this league proposal once a club is ensured of a top four finish they'll likewise step off the gas and games will be lost or drawn against teams that they would be expected to win against. So not meaningless to other clubs reliant on the result. With the play offs at present only a maximum of three clubs can wind down in the run up. With this league proposal four clubs could be playing weakened squads against opponents approaching the end of the first league. All sorts of daft results could and will almost certainly arise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
read'n'yell Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Yeh I mean I completely agree with what your saying, I just think most, if not all, league set ups also have this happening from midway through a season. I'm pro 16 team league with playoffs but I think this isn't a bad compromise for thistle. This seems certain to go ahead with SPL voting it in, SFL clubs now agreeing and only the fans to agree. But, as we know, fans aren't getting a say cause we know nothing! The talks are for as early as next season, which thinking about it will probably go against us if we get promoted or for us if we don't. Would hate to finish next year 11th in SPL and then get relegated through the mini-league but I guess its up to us to play well. We shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrD Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 the way i feel about this proposal is like the way i feel about the scottish independance referendum. Won't make any qualitative change for the better but i'd vote for it on the basis that some change makes life less boring for a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearchar Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Am I the only one whose eyes glaze over amid talk of splits? If it's a proper, grown-up league, then it has a good number of teams competing against each other. If, on the other hand, it's a knockout competition, then it's a cup competition, in which the lowlier teams are almost always knocked out early on - and with plenty of extra games for the more able teams. If you're trying to crossbreed these, then all you end up with is a chimera, and they can't survive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G SUS Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Am I the only one whose eyes glaze over amid talk of splits? Splits work. The only thing that holds them back is the notion that it's bad that a team top of the bottom split has more points than the team bottom of the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blutarsky Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 As a very wise man once said, 'Ma heid's buzzled.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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