twinny Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 I'm no good at the maths in these things but if the standard bearers for the 12-12-18 system really want it to be exciting, then why don't the divisions each play one another home and away, then the top six can play each other a couple of times with European places at stake so they all start again at zero points. The next six and the top six from the next two divisions play each other home and away with four promotion and relegation places and the bottom twelve play for their share of the league money? That's actually not a bad idea, however the 18 team league would not fit, as they'd play 36 games before any play off and another 22 in the promotion/relegation playoff or bottom league trophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck snort Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 While everything coming out of Ibrox is probably all bluster, it's bound to make the SPL etc think. I assume that all their future financial projections on the ridiculous 12-12-18 proposal are based on both Celtic and Rangers being in the top 8 once Sevco make it back to the top flight. If Rangers don't play ball it's going to throw a massive spanner in the works. The thing that really annoys me about Doncaster is he keeps telling us a top 16 isn't financially viable but never tells us why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G SUS Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 While everything coming out of Ibrox is probably all bluster, The thing that really annoys me about Doncaster is he keeps telling us a top 16 isn't financially viable but never tells us why. It is all bluster. Rangers don't have a vote. A top 16 isn't financially viable due to the reduction of home games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Well the one good thing that's come out of all this is the ugly sisters are split. Those from the east of the city all for this daft reconstruction, well Lawwell anyway, and those south of the river firmly against. Celtic even gone and got themselves a shirt sponsor all to themselves, so naughty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Read a comment from Green. It said something like "in what country in the world, do you win the division, and end up playing he same teams the following season" Eh, is that not what happens in EVERY top division in the world ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanieD Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Scottish Football? League Re-construction? As the hackneyed phrase goes: "you can't polish a turd" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Wragg Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 the Austrian fa did this and it was a disaster, warning about it in record Tuesday . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Well the one good thing that's come out of all this is the ugly sisters are split. Those from the east of the city all for this daft reconstruction, well Lawwell anyway, and those south of the river firmly against. Celtic even gone and got themselves a shirt sponsor all to themselves, so naughty. True though I believe the new shirt sponsor is the same as the old one - it's just that the company sponsoring them is the 'holding company' (ha-ha) for both Tennants and Magners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 And nothing could be more positive about reconstruction than if Chas Green was to carry out his threat for his hunnic institution to quit the Scottish game. "If that's what we have sat here eagerly awaiting, my advice is the quicker we can leave Scottish football the better," he told the club website. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20963963 For the first time, since he poked his arrogant nose into Scottish football, I agree with him. Take your manky, unwashed and unwanted midden of an organisation out of our game and set up a wee 7 a side competition in norn irn exclusively for clubs of the dodgy handshaking fraternity. Hold all games behind closed doors and sing your bigoted pish to your hearts' content, but never ever darken our doorstep again. GIRFUY Green. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Wragg Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 why have we got 2 English fatcats dictating to us how our leagues should be set up ? they need to told gtf !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Tee Ohh Eff Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 In terms of attendances, by my reckoning a 16 team top tier with 30 games per season would only need a 20% rise in gate receipts (probably even less when you factor in reduced match-day operating costs) to negate the drop in revenue from the current 38 game season. That is surely achievable given the boredom factor would be greatly reduced by teams playing each other in the league only twice per season. I would favour a 16-10-10-10 structure with the bottom two leagues regionalised and a solid unified pyramid system in place below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 why have we got 2 English fatcats dictating to us how our leagues should be set up ? they need to told gtf !!! Not really sure what their place of birth has to do with their ability to perform, but hey, you get tore right in! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ember Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Someone on the WSC forum gets this... Neil Doncaster says “What the model ensures is vibrancy and excitement at all stages of the season for clubs at all levels”. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is the worst thing that could happen. What this will actually do is to accelerate the declining standard of the Scottish professional footballer and further denude the game of spectacle and skill. They don’t get it do they? They just don’t get it. One of the significant causes in the decline of the domestic game was the split from the old first and second divisions into the Premier Division, Div 1 and Div 2 with a 12-12-14 structure in the mid 1970’s. This was exacerbated in 1993-94 with the introduction of Div 3 and a further lessening of the clubs per division. I firmly believe the game was slowly strangled from this point. It created a noose around clubs necks in which every game mattered in terms of promotion or relegation. Outside of two clubs mid table, the rest were involved either in promotion/relegation battles. As a result, competitiveness, will, strength and commitment were drummed into young players at the expense of technical skills, ball development and enjoyment of the game, which is a much-underestimated part of the footballers psyche. The more a player enjoys his football, the more he will develop. Players can’t develop when every game is a stressful must win. This new harebrained scheme is the same in all but name. Every game matters, be it to avoid the bottom split league with 22 games in and then subsequently to avoid relegation from that league even if you ended nowhere near the relegation places at the split. The blood and thunder, sorry “excitement and vibrancy” of the new set up will continue to diminish the game and as a result work against all that Doncaster and Regan claim to want- “a viable, attractive product”. The likes of Doncaster and Reagan have no idea that fans have more attention spans than goldfish and that we are not ‘excitement, vibrancy’ junkies. Your average fan takes much more out of a game other than “shit, we’re going down/going up”. An appreciation of a cracking individual performance, a budding young player/players, a single incident, a honking player etc- these are all the things we take from a game other than the league table or how much value for money we received in terms of ‘vibrancy’. The more the game is packaged as a commodity based upon excitement, the more they try to make the game attractive by making every game matter the more they degrade Scottish football and accelerate its death spiral. Taking it back to the origins of our game, there’s much to be said for Queens Park’s simple latin motto Ludere Causa Ludende- 'To play for the sake of playing'. By following this approach, by amending the league structures upwards in terms of club numbers so there are more meaningless games in which to blood and develop young players, by releasing the pressure on clubs by not forcing them to play every week in ‘win or bust’ matches and by moving towards an environment in which players can be nurtured in terms of technical development, ball skills and footballing intelligence, the better the game will be. And of course a reduction in the price of briefs will also increase attraction. Blood, thunder, snotters, sweaty jockstraps and ralgex has its place in the Scottish game (as it always has) but we also used to be good. Very, very good for our size. It is now time to reach forward by going back- larger leagues and cheaper gates, 'to play for the sake of playing' instead “excitement and vibrancy”. It would be a small start, but a significant one and stands not a cat in hells chance of ever being adopted. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberteeb Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 The post above is spot on. The thrill of a promotion chase or the fear of a relegation battle do add a lot of excitement to the season, but if it happens every single season there isn't really an opportunity to bleed in new players or experiment with different systems that would allow you to build up to an exciting promotion chase, this is particularly the case for clubs who cannot buy in ready made good platers and that basically applies to every team in Scotland, even the old firm to an extent. It is within these building periods that players can really develop into good footballers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 The post above is spot on. The thrill of a promotion chase or the fear of a relegation battle do add a lot of excitement to the season, but if it happens every single season there isn't really an opportunity to bleed in new players or experiment with different systems that would allow you to build up to an exciting promotion chase, this is particularly the case for clubs who cannot buy in ready made good platers and that basically applies to every team in Scotland, even the old firm to an extent. It is within these building periods that players can really develop into good footballers. I know what you mean, but in my view there's another way to look at it. Financially, falling down the current divisions is disastrous which makes forward planning difficult and leads to a conservative approach. Especially since it's much harder to climb back up again. This system would lead to more opportunities for promotion if relegated, and since it's 'flattened' somehwat, it reduces that cliff edge effect of relegation. Potentially a better environment to develop than currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
read'n'yell Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) The Falkirk chairman, Martin Ritchie, was interviewed for BBC and he makes a very valid point. The most important thing about changes just now is to organise more promotion/relegation opportunities, a fairer distribution of wealth and most importantly a merger of the league bodies. He rightly says everyone wants different change but it is impossible to happen just now with the 11-1 split. After the merger, any reconstruction would incorporate all clubs and be less bias towards a few teams - maybe a 75% majority. So if this system doesnt work out, then in say 5 years it will be easy to replace. I really do agree with this and think it is the most valid point made yet. Get the governing and financial part sorted, and do a tester with the leagues. http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/20969616 Edited January 10, 2013 by read'n'yell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Tee Ohh Eff Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 The Falkirk chairman, Martin Ritchie, was interviewed for BBC and he makes a very valid point. The most important thing about changes just now is to organise more promotion/relegation opportunities, a fairer distribution of wealth and most importantly a merger of the league bodies. He rightly says everyone wants different change but it is impossible to happen just now with the 11-1 split. After the merger, any reconstruction would incorporate all clubs and be less bias towards a few teams - maybe a 75% majority. So if this system doesnt work out, then in say 5 years it will be easy to replace. I really do agree with this and think it is the most valid point made yet. Get the governing and financial part sorted, and do a tester with the leagues. http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/20969616 I would say that's bang on but also add that it should include the semi-pro, junior and amateur league bodies working towards a national pyramid structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 just tore up a fag packet and scribbled this down.... Three Diviosions as follows: 18 team league, folk play each other twice. Top wins the league.... positions 2-4 get europe. bottom 3 are relegated. 4th bottom in a play off place. --------- 14 team league... split after playing each other twice, top 8 and bottom 6.... top 8 play each other twice for the top 3 promotion places and 4th place for the play off place. bottom 6 play each other twice with bottom 2 being relegated. --------- 10 team league play each other 4 times with 2 going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Tee Ohh Eff Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 just tore up a fag packet and scribbled this down.... Three Diviosions as follows: 18 team league, folk play each other twice. Top wins the league.... positions 2-4 get europe. bottom 3 are relegated. 4th bottom in a play off place. --------- 14 team league... split after playing each other twice, top 8 and bottom 6.... top 8 play each other twice for the top 3 promotion places and 4th place for the play off place. bottom 6 play each other twice with bottom 2 being relegated. --------- 10 team league play each other 4 times with 2 going up. I don't think we need to tie ourselves in knots trying to make the leagues add up to 42 teams. Incorporating a pyramid structure would mean the powers that be could concentrate on producing the league sizes we need rather than what works arithmetically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 The post above is spot on. The thrill of a promotion chase or the fear of a relegation battle do add a lot of excitement to the season, but if it happens every single season there isn't really an opportunity to bleed in new players or experiment with different systems that would allow you to build up to an exciting promotion chase, this is particularly the case for clubs who cannot buy in ready made good platers and that basically applies to every team in Scotland, even the old firm to an extent. It is within these building periods that players can really develop into good footballers. I do agree with a lot of what you say, however in the Jackie Mac interview he hints at another problem before we can dreem of this utopia. Even the established players are not paid enough to survive without their appearance/win/success bonuses, so there are still problems with introducing new players at the expence of the leading names. Unless we can find some way to generate new revenue this will always be the case and like it or not, most revenue comes from TV rather than turnstiles, so we have to take into account whatever Mr Murdoch wants. As has been said, the most important thing is to get rid of the 11-1 voting bias and to a certain extent the initial structure is less important than breaking this deadlock. If it doesn't work (and without a winter break to schedule the postponed games I don't see how it can work) it can always be changed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWM Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Fine by me honestly this proposal. Is it perfect? No, but there isn't a perfect solution. Its high time the bigger SFL clubs like us and the Falkirks who are stuck in no mans land outside the SPL running full-time setups in a two bob organisation with a closed shop overrun with village diddy clubs, went our own way. If these diddy mobs like the angus clubs, the shire, etc reject the proposal it'll only be a matter of time before the remaining full-time clubs join an SPL 2. These clubs are perfectly happy preserving their own status quo, leeching off the money dripped down, and its all created by the bigger clubs as well as keeping the trap door closed. Who the hell would sponsor an SFL without the bigger clubs? They can like it or lump it as far as I'm concerned 300k a year extra it would net a club like ourselves (according to Turnbull Hutton). Its a no brainer for me. We shouldn't be forced to be bled dry and downgrade to part-time status just to appease a bunch of seaside league clubs who offer next to nothing. The SPL clubs and those at the bottom of the rung have their nice slice of cake, its time our clubs stuck in the middle grew a pair and looked after our own too. Montrose, who had 5 fans at Clyde a few weeks ago, deciding the fate of Scottish Football? Naw mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peagreenboy Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 "If that's what we have sat here eagerly awaiting, my advice is the quicker we can leave Scottish football the better," Wow. First time I've agreed with the fecker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydebankJag Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Fine by me honestly this proposal. Is it perfect? No, but there isn't a perfect solution. Its high time the bigger SFL clubs like us and the Falkirks who are stuck in no mans land outside the SPL running full-time setups in a two bob organisation with a closed shop overrun with village diddy clubs, went our own way. If these diddy mobs like the angus clubs, the shire, etc reject the proposal it'll only be a matter of time before the remaining full-time clubs join an SPL 2. These clubs are perfectly happy preserving their own status quo, leeching off the money dripped down, and its all created by the bigger clubs as well as keeping the trap door closed. Who the hell would sponsor an SFL without the bigger clubs? They can like it or lump it as far as I'm concerned 300k a year extra it would net a club like ourselves (according to Turnbull Hutton). Its a no brainer for me. We shouldn't be forced to be bled dry and downgrade to part-time status just to appease a bunch of seaside league clubs who offer next to nothing. The SPL clubs and those at the bottom of the rung have their nice slice of cake, its time our clubs stuck in the middle grew a pair and looked after our own too. Montrose, who had 5 fans at Clyde a few weeks ago, deciding the fate of Scottish Football? Naw mate. Yeah I agree these wee clubs have been leeching off the rest of us for years................... ........................not my words or thoughts but those of the SPL chairmen who have royally screwed our game (and club) over for their own greedy needs year after year for nearly 40 years now. I truly can't believe that Thistle fans hold these views about 'diddy' clubs. We're all f@c&ing diddy clubs you fool!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Most clubs in Div 2 and Div 3 get home attendances of 3 figures with the exception of Rangers and Ayr Utd. Even Cowdenbeath and Dumbarton in our league struggle to get 4 figure crowds. I'm not saying these teams should fold. The should continue but in a setup and format which suits them and others. I was crazy that David Will of Brechin City was so high up in UEFA or FIFA. These clubs are there for their fans but they don't actually contribute a lot ot improving Scottish football or bringing through youth and improving technique in the current state and the dedication the players must have to work, play part-time and travel all over the place is not efficient use of resources. Junior teams are happy in their own setup they would not want to join a pyramid. Why would Pollok want to go and play Peterhead? They are better off with Arthurlie and Kilwinning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Most clubs in Div 2 and Div 3 get home attendances of 3 figures with the exception of Rangers and Ayr Utd. Even Cowdenbeath and Dumbarton in our league struggle to get 4 figure crowds. I'm not saying these teams should fold. The should continue but in a setup and format which suits them and others. I was crazy that David Will of Brechin City was so high up in UEFA or FIFA. These clubs are there for their fans but they don't actually contribute a lot ot improving Scottish football or bringing through youth and improving technique in the current state and the dedication the players must have to work, play part-time and travel all over the place is not efficient use of resources. Junior teams are happy in their own setup they would not want to join a pyramid. Why would Pollok want to go and play Peterhead? They are better off with Arthurlie and Kilwinning. Some junior teams do want to enter the senior leagues, some don't. The English pyramid contains plenty of teams who refuse promotion to the next level up for the same sort of reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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