Rearranged St Johnstone Game

[ColinKelvin]

I could have sworn that the word "complimentary" was used over the tannoy while we sat in the p1ssing rain at half time at the original St J game. That, allied to the fact that £12 looks greedy (even a fiver wuold have been ok) is what is putting me off going back. Did I imagine it?

 

I would also add that people saying we're paying £32 for "one and a half games" are wrong - the first 45 we saw doesn't count towards anything, in any way (well, except to see our best midfielder injuring himself). We are being asked to pay £32 for one SPFL match, competing for 3 points (not 4.5) - and are put to the inconvenience of attending it twice.

 

Lastly, the season ticket angle is a complete red herring here. I thought about buying one this season and didn't - and I fully accept that those who buy a ST are entitled to various perks for having put their cash down in advance for all games, at the start of the season; this situation being one of those perks. The problem lies squarely with the club for reneging on 'complimentary' admission and setting the price so high. I hope they see sense on this one.

[H Wragg]

This is what was given to the Saints fans when they left the stadium.

 

http://t.co/KWC7nPCTXI

 

Easy to understand why one would assume free entry into the rearranged game, I must say.

[Jaggernaut]

This is what was given to the Saints fans when they left the stadium.

 

http://t.co/KWC7nPCTXI

 

Easy to understand why one would assume free entry into the rearranged game, I must say.

Agreed. "Complimentary: Given free to repay a favor or as an act of courtesy". Now, I suppose it could be argued that the voucher is complimentary, and not entry to the match pertaining to the voucher.........

[Norgethistle]

This is what was given to the Saints fans when they left the stadium.

 

http://t.co/KWC7nPCTXI

 

Easy to understand why one would assume free entry into the rearranged game, I must say.

 

We probably meant the slip was complimentary, i.e we never charged people for the bit of paper signifying that they were at the abandoned game

[ColinKelvin]

Agreed. "Complimentary: Given free to repay a favor or as an act of courtesy". Now, I suppose it could be argued that the voucher is complimentary, and not entry to the match pertaining to the voucher.........

 

As opposed to demanding people's money on the spot for their vouchers for the rearranged game?

 

Once you start using the word "complimentary", expectations are raised that something is going to be free of charge. PTFC in PR blunder - who'd have thunk it?!

[p12tfc]

Interesting to see what the club do here.

[Blackpool Jags]

The stub, in fairness, does say, "Please see ptfc.co.uk for further information." The official site then tells us:

 

St Johnstone Admission Details

 

 

 

 

 

 

Monday 6th January at 18:10

Following the abandonment of the SPFL Premiership game against St Johnstone on December 14 the match has been rescheduled. It will now take place on Tuesday January 21 2014 with a 7:45pm kick-off.

Anybody with a ticket stub from the abandoned game, or one of the abandoned match vouchers which were distributed after the postponement, will be eligible for a discount on the full entry price. This discount will only be available for the rescheduled St Johnstone game.

Season ticket holders’ cards will work as normal for the match.

To be eligible for the discount all you need to do is present the stub or voucher, either at the Firhill offices, which are open from 9am to 5pm Monday to Friday and until 6pm on the night of the game, or at the Jackie Husband Stand ticket office thereafter.

St Johnstone fans with a voucher should present it at the away turnstile where they will then receive the same discount.

 

. . . . . . . .

 

I still think the word 'complimentary' on the stub is badly misleading, and can understand St Johnstone fans' frustration with this.

[H Wragg]

 

Once you start using the word "complimentary", expectations are raised that something is going to be free of charge. PTFC in PR blunder - who'd have thunk it?!

 

This is it in a nutshell.

 

The word 'complimentary' means only one thing in everyone's eyes when used in relation to a ticket for a football game.

 

[Rid Skwerr]

I think the club are going to have to take this one on the chin and allow free entry with the "complimentary" ticket.

Anything else is going to get us a kicking from the press.

 

They should then get new vouchers printed with "abandoned match" or some wording that doesn't imply zero cost.

[H Wragg]

Just saw on Saints forum, one of them has received a reply from Thistle.

All I can say is (and that's directed at us, not the Saints fan).

 

"Just had a reply from Thistle. Very long winded and basically shite. Adamant they will be charging. They contradict themselves though - "The vouchers were printed as soon as the game was abandoned" then they go on to say, in the same paragraph 'the vouchers with complimentary were the only ones we had in stock" utter utter shite and pure lies and spin"

 

[1 John Lambie]

Just saw on Saints forum, one of them has received a reply from Thistle.

All I can say is (and that's directed at us, not the Saints fan).

 

"Just had a reply from Thistle. Very long winded and basically shite. Adamant they will be charging. They contradict themselves though - "The vouchers were printed as soon as the game was abandoned" then they go on to say, in the same paragraph 'the vouchers with complimentary were the only ones we had in stock" utter utter shite and pure lies and spin"

 

Not really, the tickets will already have had the red complimentary writing on them, the only printing that would have taken place on the day was adding the black writing below that. It is likely that is all that was 'in stock' & we no longer use that style of paper tickets that we did last season.

[ColinKelvin]

I am 99% sure that they also used the word "complimentary" in the announcements, although from my limited experience of the Main Stand, I don't know if you can hear the PA in there anyway!

[David Stevenson]

I was just thinking: lucky Saints fan. I haven't even had a reply to my e-mail. I then checked and this was in my in-tray:

 

Hi David

 

Following the abandonment of the St Johnstone fixture on December 14 the game was subsequently re-arranged for a 7:45pm kick off on January 21. The abandoned game essentially means that the club is required to cover the cost of an extra game in an already hectic fixture schedule. Partick Thistle always tries to put football fans first however, we could not afford to provide, police, stewarding, catering, electricity and all the other overheads required for a game to go ahead safely without charging a certain amount for entry to the rearranged fixture. A film at the cinema does not need to cover costs of such overheads and therefore is quite different from that of a football match. The cost of hosting the rearranged game, even with a charge for entry, is such that it will almost certainly mean this match is run at a loss for the club. Once a Scottish Premiership game reaches halftime the host club is under no obligation to provide free entry to the rearranged fixture.

Partick Thistle Football Club always strives to put football fans first and we are sorry if you are unhappy on this occasion.

 

Kind Regards,

 

(name redacted by me)

 

 

I certainly don't see evidence to support the notion repeated twice in this reply (and highlighted by me).

 

This is basically confirmation that I will not be going to this fixture and that the Club is in for a week of hostile PR on all available media and a greater loss of income than had been the case had they proposed a reasonable price regime.

 

 

I predict the lowest SPL crowd of the season so far, an honour currently held by St. Johnstone.....

Edited January 8, 2014 by David Stevenson

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Off on a tangent and this has nothing to do with this specific nonsense.

In future no club should be asked to play a league game at a loss when it's caused thru an abandonment. Or more accurately losses on all such games should be covered by the SPFL with the proviso that the club in question aren't negligible. The financial onus on seeing a game played to a conclusion is considerable and puts ridiculous pressure on the referee. Also having to play the rearranged game at a time when it's difficult enough to even turn a profit on a scheduled fixture causes further pain. Again I'm not referring to this fiasco.

[uberteeb]

The idea that Season Ticket holders should pay anything is absolute garbage.

 

The idea that PATG fans (including away fans) need to pay £12 is absolute garbage.

 

This isn't an issue that should be dividing the support. The real question is who is making all of these unprofessional decisions at the club, why are they being allowed to make unprofessional decisions on a regular basis and ultimately what is being done about it. If people insist on calling football a business then we are customers and the past 8 months at Firhill could be used by any other business as a guide of how not to do customer service.

 

An embarassingly low crowd seems inevitable and frankly it's what the club deserve.

[potty trained]

Not really, the tickets will already have had the red complimentary writing on them, the only printing that would have taken place on the day was adding the black writing below that. It is likely that is all that was 'in stock' & we no longer use that style of paper tickets that we did last season.

 

The only style of ticket we had in stock was a pile of old A4 sheets of Comp Tickets from last season?

 

Whilst i understand your willingness to defend the office folk 1JL, and you probably have more understanding of how things work in there, compared to anyone else on here...

 

But just to be clear, you are suggesting we didn't have any standard matchday font tickets in the office...

 

 

Even tho' 2 weeks before the Saint Johnstone game, we played Celtic and were 2000 seats below capacity (potentially 2000 unprinted tickets).

 

In that two week period we sold Tickets to St Mirren fans for the 0-3 game.

 

The Aberdeen cup game was ticketed.

 

We print tickets for the match day, to sell to home fans on the day of the match.

 

We are printing tickets constantly! we must go through printer ink like it's going out of fashion...

 

 

But at 3.45 on the day of the St Johnstone game, the only possible ticket paper we could use was one that had "complimentary" written on it.

 

 

Maybe thats why it took so long to get the tickets out into the stands? they had someone hunting through cupboards and filing cabinets trying to find a box of A4 paper,

 

"who the fck does the stationary order in here!"

"how the fck can we run out of ticket paper"

"are you seriously telling me the only paper we have in this whole wooden clad stand is last season's comp paper!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well oiled machine.

[potty trained]

I was just thinking: lucky Saints fan. I haven't even had a reply to my e-mail. I then checked and this was in my in-tray:

 

Hi David

 

Following the abandonment of the St Johnstone fixture on December 14 the game was subsequently re-arranged for a 7:45pm kick off on January 21. The abandoned game essentially means that the club is required to cover the cost of an extra game in an already hectic fixture schedule. Partick Thistle always tries to put football fans first however, we could not afford to provide, police, stewarding, catering, electricity and all the other overheads required for a game to go ahead safely without charging a certain amount for entry to the rearranged fixture. A film at the cinema does not need to cover costs of such overheads and therefore is quite different from that of a football match. The cost of hosting the rearranged game, even with a charge for entry, is such that it will almost certainly mean this match is run at a loss for the club. Once a Scottish Premiership game reaches halftime the host club is under no obligation to provide free entry to the rearranged fixture.

Partick Thistle Football Club always strives to put football fans first and we are sorry if you are unhappy on this occasion.

 

Kind Regards,

 

(name redacted by me)

 

 

I certainly don't see evidence to support the notion repeated twice in this reply (and highlighted by me).

 

This is basically confirmation that I will not be going to this fixture and that the Club is in for a week of hostile PR on all available media and a greater loss of income than had been the case had they proposed a reasonable price regime.

 

 

I predict the lowest SPL crowd of the season so far, an honour currently held by St. Johnstone.....

 

Partick Thistle always tries to put football fans first however, we could not afford to provide, police, stewarding, catering, electricity and all the other overheads required for a game to go ahead safely without charging a certain amount for entry to the rearranged fixture. The cost of hosting the rearranged game, even with a charge for entry, is such that it will almost certainly mean this match is run at a loss for the club

 

 

Well, there you go, the club have actually weighed up all the costs, all the in's and outs and even with charging £12, they will lose money on this game. So, why £12, if £12 will see us make a loss, why not £10, potentially only increasing the loss by £2000, but could increase the gate by 200 so would even it's self out.

 

All gate receipts go to Archie's wage budget, but they charged fans £5 more than normal for the celtic game, with very few redeeming at the abandoned game... did all that money disappear into the biscuit tin marked "archie"... and only Aerchie has they keys?

 

Maxi has stated we are ahead of budget at the EOS night, crowds are higher than estimated, so there's more money in the pot.

 

How much of a loss are we making on this game?

why are we making a loss, there are funds there to break even?

what is the convoluted nature of our accounting system that means money can't be moved from pile A to pile B to cover the loss on a one off game?

 

So, how many people are they expecting to attend?

 

Although i would be interested to know what costs are incurred for stewarding and catering when both are outsourced to Sporting Solutions.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit to add, a cinema does have overheads like stewarding, catering, electricity , i've no idea why this person at the club thinks cinemas dont have overheads like this. Although adding shite like that does help to pad it out a little, even if it is somewhat condescending.

Edited January 8, 2014 by potty trained

[Third Lanark]

Partick Thistle always tries to put football fans first however, we could not afford to provide, police, stewarding, catering, electricity and all the other overheads required for a game to go ahead safely without charging a certain amount for entry to the rearranged fixture. The cost of hosting the rearranged game, even with a charge for entry, is such that it will almost certainly mean this match is run at a loss for the club

 

 

Well, there you go, the club have actually weighed up all the costs, all the in's and outs and even with charging £12, they will lose money on this game. So, why £12, if £12 will see us make a loss, why not £10, potentially only increasing the loss by £2000, but could increase the gate by 200 so would even it's self out.

 

All gate receipts go to Archie's wage budget, but they charged fans £5 more than normal for the celtic game, with very few redeeming at the abandoned game... did all that money disappear into the biscuit tin marked "archie"... and only Aerchie has they keys?

 

Maxi has stated we are ahead of budget at the EOS night, crowds are higher than estimated, so there's more money in the pot.

 

How much of a loss are we making on this game?

why are we making a loss, there are funds there to break even?

what is the convoluted nature of our accounting system that means money can't be moved from pile A to pile B to cover the loss on a one off game?

 

So, how many people are they expecting to attend?

 

Although i would be interested to know what costs are incurred for stewarding and catering when both are outsourced to Sporting Solutions.

 

 

 

I understand why people are not happy about having to pay £12 for this.

Im changing the subject slightly here but since that EOS night we played ICT and only got 2000 there which may have had a bad affect on the budget. We havent had any attendances over 5000 since the Celtic game.

However at the risk of sounding like a broken down record rather than charging the fans for the rearranged St Johnstone game this is more reason why the club should have been increasing income by selling dvd's and promoting TAG.

[1 John Lambie]

The only style of ticket we had in stock was a pile of old A4 sheets of Comp Tickets from last season?

 

Whilst i understand your willingness to defend the office folk 1JL, and you probably have more understanding of how things work in there, compared to anyone else on here...

 

But just to be clear, you are suggesting we didn't have any standard matchday font tickets in the office...

 

 

Even tho' 2 weeks before the Saint Johnstone game, we played Celtic and were 2000 seats below capacity (potentially 2000 unprinted tickets).

 

In that two week period we sold Tickets to St Mirren fans for the 0-3 game.

 

The Aberdeen cup game was ticketed.

 

We print tickets for the match day, to sell to home fans on the day of the match.

 

We are printing tickets constantly! we must go through printer ink like it's going out of fashion...

 

 

But at 3.45 on the day of the St Johnstone game, the only possible ticket paper we could use was one that had "complimentary" written on it.

 

 

Maybe thats why it took so long to get the tickets out into the stands? they had someone hunting through cupboards and filing cabinets trying to find a box of A4 paper,

 

I have no idea what tickets we have left from last season, I have not been in the office since the summer. I was just saying that it could be the case that only tickets with comp written on them were left. It was obviously decided that the paper tickets from last season would be easier and quicker to alter than those that are used this season.

 

The machine used to print tickets this season is different from the process used to print tickets last season, it would appear to me to be easier & quicker (speed was of the essence) to use old tickets that say 'comp' on them, writing a few details in word & clicking print x 500 or so.

 

Given how long the office had to print the tickets & get them to the steward, 10minutes from when the ref did the HT pitch inspection? I think it'll have been pretty hectic & what was done was the best & quickest way to make sure PATG fans got some sort of proof of entry.

[jagfox]

According to the Record, Maxwell states this game would cost £8,000 to host again. Being a midweek fixture the crowd would have been low anyway, imo. Less families, away fans, being freezing no doubt.

However even a ten pound entry would seem fairer.

The club are entitled to charge but the £12 entry could cost the club as this will run on and on. Adding to a list of bad PR this season.

The only thing that could save the club is two good results in the next two games, as winning re-enforces loyalty to some degree.

Has the results of the meeting and Club representatived been released yet?

Albion Rovers are getting plenty of positive media exposure for their pay what you want initiative this weekend. (minimum payment £1)

Also Berwick had free entry over the Xmas period for a game with Peterhead. The costs were met by the supporters trust. I think they got 700/800 which is well up on their average of around 400.

 

 

[potty trained]

I have no idea what tickets we have left from last season, I have not been in the office since the summer. I was just saying that it could be the case that only tickets with comp written on them were left. It was obviously decided that the paper tickets from last season would be easier and quicker to alter than those that are used this season.

 

The machine used to print tickets this season is different from the process used to print tickets last season, it would appear to me to be easier & quicker (speed was of the essence) to use old tickets that say 'comp' on them, writing a few details in word & clicking print x 500 or so.

 

Given how long the office had to print the tickets & get them to the steward, 10minutes from when the ref did the HT pitch inspection? I think it'll have been pretty hectic & what was done was the best & quickest way to make sure PATG fans got some sort of proof of entry.

 

As i've said, you have more knowledge than most, but i would dispute a new printer (machine) is harder to use than the old one. Technology advances to make our lives easier, not harder, if its the case that staff can't use the new system to it's best effect that is a training issue.

 

if we are using a new printer like you have said, for the new ticketing system, i bet its got a far better page/min print speed than the old printer, so again, we should have been using the new system to get more tickets out to more fans quicker.

 

To suggest that we couldn't use the current match day ticket and print a specific message on that i would suggest as wrong, but the club have stated to a st johnstone fan 'the vouchers with complimentary were the only ones we had in stock" ... believe that if you will, but i think thats a lie. i would be amazed, considering we are printing match day tickets like they are going out of fashion, that at 3.45 we had no 2013/14 match day standard tickets in the ground. who in the name of god is responsible for the club's stationary order?

 

i really can't be bothered getting bogged down in the in's and outs of the office at firhill, either way...

 

The facts remain, the club printed vouchers with the word complimentary on them.

They are stating they are making a loss from on this one game, but not stated based on what calculation or how big/small a loss.

They are charging PATG fans £12.

They are letting ST holders in for free.

All PATG money goes to Archie's wage budget.

The club (archie's wage budget) is well up on predictions when you look at attendances and the £5 extra on the celtic game.

[potty trained]

According to the Record, Maxwell states this game would cost £8,000 to host again.

 

So they are expecting less that 666 PATG (home and away) fans to turn up.

 

 

 

So... Say we have 1500 season ticket holders. Even if only 500 PATG punters turned up, we could have blocked ST's and charged £4 a head and broken even.

 

Why are we making a loss on this game?

 

Edited January 8, 2014 by potty trained

[jagfox]

 

 

So they are expecting less that 666 PATG (home and away) fans to turn up.

 

They probably are now

 

 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

So they are expecting less that 666 PATG (home and away) fans to turn up.

 

 

 

So... Say we have 1500 season ticket holders. Even if only 500 PATG punters turned up, we could have blocked ST's and charged £4 a head and broken even.

 

Why are we making a loss on this game?

 

I don't quite get your arithmetic, PT. I'm assuming Maxi's £8K is net of VAT and I don't believe for one moment ST holders would turn up in those numbers for a Tuesday night game in January. Unless you're meaning a £4 or so levy on next season's ST price?

 

Forgetting all that I'm fairly sure Maxi would just pick a number at random. No one to do with running the Club would surely be as daft as to announce to all and sundry such sensitive information?????

[Norgethistle]

According to the Record, Maxwell states this game would cost £8,000 to host again. Being a midweek fixture the crowd would have been low anyway, imo. Less families, away fans, being freezing no doubt.

However even a ten pound entry would seem fairer.

The club are entitled to charge but the £12 entry could cost the club as this will run on and on. Adding to a list of bad PR this season.

The only thing that could save the club is two good results in the next two games, as winning re-enforces loyalty to some degree.

Has the results of the meeting and Club representatived been released yet?

Albion Rovers are getting plenty of positive media exposure for their pay what you want initiative this weekend. (minimum payment £1)

Also Berwick had free entry over the Xmas period for a game with Peterhead. The costs were met by the supporters trust. I think they got 700/800 which is well up on their average of around 400.

 

At £12 a head less VAT it will take around 800 paying fans to break even, we have now alienated some of them so the chance of breaking even is harder. To state we have catering and stewarding costs I believe is not true as that is fully outsourced and covered in the SS deal.

Total shambles again from the off field portion of PTFC and sorry but if our on field activities were this bad we'd be screaming for someone head.

How much money has the incompetence from the office cost us this year when you take into account TAG, CF, DVD, ST fiasco etc etc more than enough to cover the cost of hosting this game as a freebie AND giving Archie some transfer budget.

 

Time to sort your act out Thistle