Lenziejag Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 No. I'm suggesting that a youth system which only starts to give players regular first team games when they are about 20 isn't as good as ones that bring through players into first team regulars two years earlier. It is a fair point. However, our current youth set up has only been going a couple of years. In your other post you listed a number of players who are EPL/International standard. These are the exceptions. It would be fairer to compare Lindsay/Hendry with other Scottish Premiership level players that have come through youth systems in the last couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 It is a fair point. However, our current youth set up has only been going a couple of years. In your other post you listed a number of players who are EPL/International standard. These are the exceptions. It would be fairer to compare Lindsay/Hendry with other Scottish Premiership level players that have come through youth systems in the last couple of years. Of those currently at their youth club: Hamilton players season ending 20th birthday: Grant Gillespie (20 appearances), Ziggy Gordon (48 appearances), Andy Ryan (92 appearances) Hearts players ditto: Callum Paterson (101 appearances), Jordan McGhee (47 appearances), Gary Oliver (20 appearances), Billy King (42 appearances), Kevin McHattie (23 appearances), Jamie Walker (26 appearances), Sam Nicholson (58 appearances) Aberdeen players ditto: Andrew Considine (52 appearances), Cammy Smith (75 appearances), Peter Pawlett (39 appearances), Ryan Jack (74 appearances) Motherwell players ditto: Stephen Pearson (70 appearances), David Clarkson (141 appearances), Jack Leitch (25 appearances), Steven Hammell (82 appearances), Dom Thomas (21 appearances) I could go on, but I think this makes my point. This doesn't include other Clubs' equivalents of a Gary Fraser, and gives you an indication how many players a youth system should be turning out as "established" players that stick about. If you look at some of those names, particularly in the Motherwell and Aberdeen squads, you can see why they've been formidable sides in this league for most of the last decade. The continuity that a successful youth system has for a team, as much as transfers to English teams for silly money, is at least as much of a mark of its value to a club as anything else. This is why I say Bannigan is such an honourable exception in our otherwise dismal efforts of the last decade. He is the only player to have broken through and either made a fee or become a first team regular in my years following Thistle. By the end of the season he turned 20 he had made 22 appearances for us. Compare that to the trend above us. Hopefully that's going to change with Lindsay and Hendry, but I think this is the mark of a system that hasn't delivered. Of course ThistleWeir is going to take time bed-in. All I'm doing is pointing out the benchmark against which, in the next 3-4 seasons, we have honestly to judge it against. I've seen about 8 or 9 18-20 year olds get talked up from within our youth system and almost without exception they've made a couple of second-half substitute appearances and then gone off to play for Stenhousemuir. Against all the chat about Archie's budget being cut back we need to be honest: the youth system has to start churning out 2 or 3 first team regulars every season if we are to consolidate where we are. Hoovering up other team's 20-24 year-old cast-offs might work in the 2nd tier but at this level it's no cheaper a strategy than a Killie journeyman approach and no greater a fix either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Of those currently at their youth club: Hamilton players season ending 20th birthday: Grant Gillespie (20 appearances), Ziggy Gordon (48 appearances), Andy Ryan (92 appearances) Hearts players ditto: Callum Paterson (101 appearances), Jordan McGhee (47 appearances), Gary Oliver (20 appearances), Billy King (42 appearances), Kevin McHattie (23 appearances), Jamie Walker (26 appearances), Sam Nicholson (58 appearances) Aberdeen players ditto: Andrew Considine (52 appearances), Cammy Smith (75 appearances), Peter Pawlett (39 appearances), Ryan Jack (74 appearances) Motherwell players ditto: Stephen Pearson (70 appearances), David Clarkson (141 appearances), Jack Leitch (25 appearances), Steven Hammell (82 appearances), Dom Thomas (21 appearances) I could go on, but I think this makes my point. This doesn't include other Clubs' equivalents of a Gary Fraser, and gives you an indication how many players a youth system should be turning out as "established" players that stick about. If you look at some of those names, particularly in the Motherwell and Aberdeen squads, you can see why they've been formidable sides in this league for most of the last decade. The continuity that a successful youth system has for a team, as much as transfers to English teams for silly money, is at least as much of a mark of its value to a club as anything else. This is why I say Bannigan is such an honourable exception in our otherwise dismal efforts of the last decade. He is the only player to have broken through and either made a fee or become a first team regular in my years following Thistle. By the end of the season he turned 20 he had made 22 appearances for us. Compare that to the trend above us. Hopefully that's going to change with Lindsay and Hendry, but I think this is the mark of a system that hasn't delivered. Of course ThistleWeir is going to take time bed-in. All I'm doing is pointing out the benchmark against which, in the next 3-4 seasons, we have honestly to judge it against. I've seen about 8 or 9 18-20 year olds get talked up from within our youth system and almost without exception they've made a couple of second-half substitute appearances and then gone off to play for Stenhousemuir. Against all the chat about Archie's budget being cut back we need to be honest: the youth system has to start churning out 2 or 3 first team regulars every season if we are to consolidate where we are. Hoovering up other team's 20-24 year-old cast-offs might work in the 2nd tier but at this level it's no cheaper a strategy than a Killie journeyman approach and no greater a fix either. Agree with nearly all what you have said but the ThistleWeir youth system is still only in its infancy so to make a judgement that it's not working is wrong at this stage . Some of the teams mentioned like Hamilton had to blood most of their young players in the First Division where the expectations were a little lower ( McCarthy, McCarthur , Easton etc ) . Hearts didn't have an option 2 years ago but to blood their youth players due to their financial constraints but if you looked at their team sheet last week they didn't all make it and seem to have went back down the foreigner route again . Patience is the key and providing the coaching and scouting is good enough it will work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Please name a youth system which produces 2 or 3 first team regulars every season. Or you can admit that's a ridiculous claim and we can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veejag Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Queens Park *mic drop* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Please name a youth system which produces 2 or 3 first team regulars every season. Or you can admit that's a ridiculous claim and we can move on. I didn't say that other youth systems did that. I said if we are to compete at this level with our financial constraints that's what we need to start to do. Those are two entirely different propositions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) I didn't say that other youth systems did that. I said if we are to compete at this level with our financial constraints that's what we need to start to do. Those are two entirely different propositions. So you expect our youth system to outperform all comparable youth systems within 3-4 years of being established in an area with a number of clubs bigger than ourselves with far more established youth systems? Edited August 30, 2015 by oneteaminglasgow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 So you expect our youth system to outperform all comparable youth systems within 3-4 years of being established in an area with a number of clubs bigger than ourselves with far more established youth systems? Reading obviously isn't your strong point. I haven't said that I "expect" anything. I have said three things: 1. Our youth system's track record is poorer than that of most other clubs in this division and clubs of a similar size to us, as evidenced by players emerging, if at all, into the first team later than with other clubs, with us more reliant on loaning 16-19 year-olds for game time than other clubs, and a high attrition rate for those that do make a first team appearance. 2. If we don't see a notable increase in first-team quality players coming from the youth team in the next 3-4 years we should start to be a bit concerned about why that's not happening. 3. Given our financial restraints, if we are to consolidate and be successful in this league, we need our youth system to outperform that of other clubs. I don't think any of these contentions is controversial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Our U17s beat their Aberdeen counterparts today in the Academy League - hopefully in a year or two we will see some of those players in the first team. I should also point out that Woodstock Jag did try to convince people to vote Lib Dem at the General Election so go easy on him it's been a tough few months! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Be interesting to see what happens when Mr Weir completes his 3 year funding. Might be completely wrong but I, for one, can't see the current board pumping any money in. Wonder if Mr Weir will invest further or if it will fizzle out. If, by chance, we unearthed an absolute gem and sold him for say £500,000 does Mr Weir get any of his money back? Really don't know the ins and outs of the deal. What I have noticed about quite a lot of the young boys threatening to come through, barring the two centre half's, is that a lot of the guys I have seen, look very small!! Edited August 30, 2015 by Lindau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Lindau I agree but what I think you have to remember is that most of the boys in the development squad are between the ages of 16-18 year olds so given time I'm sure they will get stronger and fill out lots of talent there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Yeah, you are maybe right Maestro, it's just that it's so noticeable, especially when a lot of the young guys were at the Dumbarton pre season game either in the squad or sitting on the sidelines. The guy that came on for the last 20 at at right back, I think it might be McInally has got some engine, but he is tiny. Throw in McDaid, McLaughlin and many others. Doesn't mean they won't make the grade, but would be good if we had a right mixture. In saying all that, there are several promising sorts in there! Edited August 30, 2015 by Lindau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Lindau I agree but what I think you have to remember is that most of the boys in the development squad are between the ages of 16-18 year olds so given time I'm sure they will get stronger and fill out lots of talent there And they're not ready yet? The youth system must be ******* shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Looks like he might be off in a few hours! http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/09/01/everton-to-land-scottish-starlet-hendry/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Peebles Tackle Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 If we could get a few quid for him, could open up some funds for other targets? Could be an interesting day... If he goes, I'd suggest Conrad as cover unless he decides on Killie? Surely not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThickAsThieves Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 If Hendry does leave, we'll need another centre-back. Balatoni would make sense in many ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 If we could get a few quid for him, could open up some funds for other targets? Could be an interesting day... If he goes, I'd suggest Conrad as cover unless he decides on Killie? Surely not... He has made it clear that he wouldn't come back but I wonder if he might have a change of mind? Stranger things have happened. If young Jack does go and the fragility factor that surrounds Seabiscuit, means we would have to bring someone in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnyjag Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Or get him back on loan for the season. If he does go I hope the board give Archie some money to do something today either to offer potential signing (s) better wages or to bid for someone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 If we could get a few quid for him, could open up some funds for other targets? Could be an interesting day... If he goes, I'd suggest Conrad as cover unless he decides on Killie? Surely not... I'd have thought full back first with either the player or Miller as cover at centre back. Difficult one as Lindsay is young and could easily lose form/confidence. Frans and Seaborne worry me about staying the course so to speak. As far as I'm aware the U20s still require at least one centreback so ideally we could get a player that could play for them and be good enough to step up if required. That of course is a long shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlgarveJag Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Wigan it is then according to official site but link not working yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 https://mobile.twitter.com/LaticsOfficial/status/638769726638964737 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinistar Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Good luck Jack! Thanks for the (short) memories :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillresigned Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Sometimes I simply don't get our supporters, or at least a section of it! They seem time just South of La-la land! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 So it seems it's c 100k up front. Plus add-ons. Decent bit of business considering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north stander Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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