potty trained Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) Whilst I wasn't at the game on Saturday, it would seem Archie's 3-5-2 fell on it's backside. In so much as we only conceded one late goal in a cup competition. Based on this it has generated a wealth of discussion and derision. From the comfort of my seat, here's what I think... 3-5-2 it's self is not the problem, more the players to hand and the players deployed. And listenning to folk, i think thats where we fell down. One of the "Archie Out" folks main gripes has been a lack of a Plan B. Its strange that some are now calling for his head because he deployed a "Plan B" and it didn't bring a win at the first time of asking! For me I think Gary Miller is probably ideally suited to 3-5-2 as his natural instict to move right provides width to the three, as opposed to three centre halves who will naturally bunch in the middle. Playing 3-5-2 allows Elliott and Dumbuya top compete for the wing back roll on the right. After that, it gets kind of tricky. Even though it requires a second striker, 3/5/2 actually only requires 3 attacking players, compared to the 4 required for our 4-2-3-1. We have a wealth of attacking midfielders (wingers) who would then be competing for the single attacking centre midfield roll. That is if you drop Welsh and let him fight it out with Banzo and Osman for the two DM roles. Fraser, Lawless, Edwards, Wilson and Amoo all competing for a single attacking midfield place Pogba and Doolan up top. With German and Nisbett still to be introduced. Of course, the other advantage to 3-5-2 is that your centre midfielders don't need to be so defensive minded. with 3 at the back, there isn't so much requirement for Osman. Fraser(welsh) and Banzo are the natural players in the squad to fit into the 3-5-2 formation. Or you play one DM (Osman) with Banzo and Fraser more attck minded, infront of him. Doolan - Pogba Banzo ----- Fraser Booth ---------- Osman ---------- Dumbuya Seabourne Frans Miller Cerny ETA with Erskine coming in next season, I think he would be ideal playing behind the two strikers, with Fraser and Osman in the DM roles, if Banzo leaves. Edited February 8, 2016 by potty trained 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonehJags Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 I think there are times when this system could be used to our benefit if it is used correctly likely you have said above. The player selection is crucial to it working. On saturday gone, we had too many defensively minded players who have been lacking creatively all season. I think this weekend it could prove worthwhile. Having Pogba and Doolan maybe a good idea. Id maybe swap banzo with lawless out that team you have picked above but i wouldnt have an issue with that team at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry gaz Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 I think McColl Dumped it after couple of seasons because he felt we couldn't win the league with that system and went to a back four.. I seem to remember us losing a unbelievable amount of goals from breakaway counter attacks down the wings.. You need players who play that system naturally and I'm not sure we have that at the moment. whoever sits in the middle of the defence .needs to be more of a sweeper than a centre half the way Simon Storey was. Don't know if any of the current bunch fit that .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 On a narrow/small playing surface Attacking wingbacks who reach the bye line. Two upfront different type of player Goalscoring attacking midfielder Don't think you need a sweeper as such but a centreback that can step up to midfield with ease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 There was only one player who looked a 3-5-2 natural to me on sat, and that was booth. Everyone else seemed uncomfortable. That's not to say the system is awful, but just we don't have the players for it. Neither I suspect to Dundee United and I did say to my Dundee United supporting mates afterwards 'at least I don't have to watch 3-5-2 every week'. They have been playing the system for weeks and seem no more adept at it than we did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 So did we play a 3-5-2 with one striker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted February 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 So did we play a 3-5-2 with one striker? It would seem it was 5-3-1-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 It's not 3-5-2 when one of your wing-backs never goes forward and three of your midfielders sit right in front of the back 3. It's also not a 3-5-2 when one of the strikers is a winger. We were playing, at best, a very defensive 5-3-1-1 switching to a 4-4-1-1 when Booth goes forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 It's not 3-5-2 when one of your wing-backs never goes forward and three of your midfielders sit right in front of the back 3. It's also not a 3-5-2 when one of the strikers is a winger. We were playing, at best, a very defensive 5-3-1-1 switching to a 4-4-1-1 when Booth goes forward. Coincidently McCall used to confuse me with his formation as well. Twaddle played wingback while Paton played full back. Was weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) in our most successful 3-5-2 season, winning promotion to the then SPL in 2002, Shaggy played as sweeper and carried the ball forward into midfield, spraying the ball around with elegant passes, both short and long (but hardly ever punted). But look at that midfield trio-Lennon, Fleming and Hardie. All of them capable of making runs beyond the forwards or of coming late into the box to pick up the pieces of an attack. And they all knew how to score. Must have been close to 30 goals between them that season. Different level I know, but 3-5-2 does not need to be defensive with the correct personnel, the right attitude and the requisite skills. Edited February 8, 2016 by partickthedog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) I think McColl Dumped it after couple of seasons because he felt we couldn't win the league with that system and went to a back four.. I seem to remember us losing a unbelievable amount of goals from breakaway counter attacks down the wings.. You need players who play that system naturally and I'm not sure we have that at the moment. whoever sits in the middle of the defence .needs to be more of a sweeper than a centre half the way Simon Storey was. Don't know if any of the current bunch fit that .. Said that myself after the game. With the right player, you could have someone who can come out from defence with the ball but we didn't have that. Defensively the flat back three got in each others way a bit. With a sweeper you have two centre backs each covering a clearly defined area with the sweeper clearing up anything that gets by them. For a team like us I don't think we can play the system unless we have that sweeper/libero kind of player. I don't think we have - unless maybe we played Osman there - he is strong, good in the air and reads a game well. maybe you could do that with Fraser coming in to be the sitting player. Then I think Booth and Dumbuya would be our best wing backs but up front I don't think Lawless works as a second striker in that setup. Pogba and Doolan for the moment but maybe German coming in once we see what he can do - or Amoo? I think though at the moment we have more players suited for the 4-2-3-1 setup than we do for 3-5-2. Edited February 9, 2016 by Mr Bunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillresigned Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 As,people,have said 3 at the back is not defensive per ce, but without the players to operate it satisfactorily it can easily and quickly become so. iPad facto, I am not against 3-5-2 by itself, but it does seem a pretty strange time to introduce it more than halfwa through the season . Particularly as we are far from clear of any threat of relegation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buchanio Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Ill be surprised if we play with the 3 on Saturday, I think he will defer back to a 4-2-3-1, Hearts play with more width than United. Will be down to the personnel to give a big performance to get anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted February 9, 2016 Members Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 iPad facto, Predictive text! Don't you just love it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rid Skwerr Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 After 2000 years you'd think they'd have got the Latin off pat.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Judging by Big Dan's comments in the ET yesterday it seems almost certain that we'll play with this system again. Hopefully he will change the personnel this time. Very difficult to see anything other than a Hearts victory but stranger things have happened. As an old geezer once said to me many moons ago: "One travels more in hope than expectation" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Judging by Big Dan's comments in the ET yesterday it seems almost certain that we'll play with this system again. Hopefully he will change the personnel this time. Very difficult to see anything other than a Hearts victory but stranger things have happened. As an old geezer once said to me many moons ago: "One travels more in hope than expectation" It will never be admitted but I hope that set up on Saturday wasn't in preparation for the two upcoming games. Anything we pick up in these games will be a bonus, but with Hearts playing last night and having the derby cup tie on Tuesday they might decide to rest a few players and I certainly don't think Aberdeen are unbeatable. A point in each game would be a good return, especially if we can beat the Saints after the Aberdeen game. I reckon 4/5 more wins this season will just about see us safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonehJags Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 I dont think he will change the formation for this one either and I think he will likely go for the same team. Id like to see Fraser in for Welsh but that aside I think that will be it. Then again going on last week, I wouldnt be surprised if we went 4-3-3. Id bite yer hand off fir a point this weekend but dons can be a hit or a miss. Both teams have midweek fixtures to contend with as well so there's reason to be optimistic. I hope the sand has washed away or its not going to look pretty on the TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of spain Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Seabourne in the Evening times saying he thinks 3-5-2 might be in the managers thoughts this weekend. Also happy how defensively solid we were using it V Utd. Of course it wasn't bad defensively Dan, we had 8 non attack minded outfield players! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) As an old geezer once said to me many moons ago: "One travels more in hope than expectation" Always though John Prescott made a very poor secretary of state for transport. The small playing area at Tynecastle perhaps lends itself to 3-5-2 (3-5-1-1). Thought Miller looked a natural for the right centreback gig but will probably stick with Frans. Need Elliott/Dumbaya at right wingback and maybe someone a bit more suited to the forward midfield slot than Welsh. Not sure who that would be and perhaps influenced by who the two forwards are. If Dools and Wee Stevie probably need a bit of strength behind them like Fraser. If Pogba starts then someone like Edwards or Nesbitt would be preferable. Edited February 11, 2016 by lady-isobel-barnett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 I would get the new guys in there. No one is expecting us to get anything from this game anyway so why not blood the new signings? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 I would get the new guys in there. No one is expecting us to get anything from this game anyway so why not blood the new signings? Any if we get walloped, their confidence will be shattered and they will be useless for the rest of the year. Add to that, the current starters will be pissed of at getting dropped and their form will drop for the rest of the season. I agree that just going with the same lineup as last week is not the way to go, but nor is wholesale changes. If we keep the same formation, I would bring back Doumbia, and swap Welsh for Fraser/Nesbitt/Edwards to give a bit more forward threat. That said, I'd rather go back to the 4-5-1 that worked before, keep Miller in defense, but drop Linday or Frans for Amoo/Edwards/German and drop Welsh for Fraser/Nesbitt This football management stuff is dead easy until you have to do it. Just ask Gary Neville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted February 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) How come putting in 2 new signings is wholesale changes? I love how you're worried about effecting Welsh or Lawless's confidence should we bring in the celtic lad and the German. But you are happy to drop miller for Dumbuya after yet another game where the guy did bugger all wrong. Oh no, you're actually agreeing? You want German in? But drop maybe Frans after coming into the team. Edited February 11, 2016 by potty trained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Sorry Dick but unless I missed something we only brought in 2 new players, so I don't see how that amounts to wholesale changes? So you think Archie should keep people in the team regardless, even if they are playing badly (Welsh), just in order to keep the peace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Any if we get walloped, their confidence will be shattered and they will be useless for the rest of the year. Add to that, the current starters will be pissed of at getting dropped and their form will drop for the rest of the season. I agree that just going with the same lineup as last week is not the way to go, but nor is wholesale changes. If we keep the same formation, I would bring back Doumbia, and swap Welsh for Fraser/Nesbitt/Edwards to give a bit more forward threat. That said, I'd rather go back to the 4-5-1 that worked before, keep Miller in defense, but drop Linday or Frans for Amoo/Edwards/German and drop Welsh for Fraser/Nesbitt This football management stuff is dead easy until you have to do it. Just ask Gary Neville. So if we get walloped the confidence will be shattered and they will be useless for the rest of the season?. They have hammered us twice but it didn't stop us having a great run after the defeats. Current starters will be pissed off getting dropped and their form will drop off for the rest of the season but get Welsh, Frans or Lindsay out the team? Can't quite get the logic of that Dick! For what it's worth I would give Sean Welsh a break and put Fraser or Nesbitt in and if he is fit put German on the bench Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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