Challenge Cup

[dougie247]

Happy for our youth team to get some serious games and to see how well the Weir project is progressing.. But bit miffed at some of the ties it could throw up

[Fawlty Towers]

It does seem a bit contrived. I recall part of the Strachan/McClair blueprint for improving Scottish football was the top flight teams putting 5 development squad players forward as part of a draft system for the lower league clubs - is this still going ahead?

[elevenone]

I think it will be good for the young lads and will hopefully get along to the games. Just read the draw/format etc, golly gosh we do like to complicate things in Scottish football. Always felt the League Cup could have benefited more from a UK wide mix up, however time will tell.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Can't remember a day like it. Just back in from a quick couple of pints at my local. The place was buzzin'! Everyone is talking about this revamp, even folk that don't normally follow the beautiful game. Can't remember a day like this since Mo Johnston signed for the hu*ns. Neil Doncaster is saying "This is another exciting day for Scottish Football". What an understatement.

[Garscube Road End]

I'd pish myself if an Irish or Welsh team won it.

[MonehJags]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if an Irish or Welsh team won it. Infact, im surprised they would lower themselves to play against the smaller clubs. Linfield or whoever would be a match for ourselves never mind Arbroath or Clyde.

[Garscube Road End]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if an Irish or Welsh team won it. Infact, im surprised they would lower themselves to play against the smaller clubs. Linfield or whoever would be a match for ourselves never mind Arbroath or Clyde.

 

As they are not coming in until round 4 the flotsam like Clyde should be jettisoned by then.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

As they are not coming in until round 4 the flotsam like Clyde should be jettisoned by then.

 

I assume the Welsh and Northern Irish clubs can be drawn at home. Unless heavily subsidised I'd have thought an away trip out of Scotland would just about bankrupt some part time clubs. I remember being told that an ideal draw in the Challenge Cup for us was an away tie to a nearby club. No home running costs and limited travel costs. The minute you have to travel a distance you're lucky to break even.

[north stander]

Challenge Cup was fine the way it was. If they wanted to expand it, invite more HL/LL teams.

 

Now it is four varying levels competitions in one (under 20s, leagues 1 to 3, HL & LL fodder, plus the Irish and Welsh invitees), and it is a clusterfukk monstrosity.

 

Teams seeded in opening three rounds. Irish and Welsh parachuted in at round four (so play three games, and win it).

 

How does the seeding work? For example, are the Premier League teams (under 20's) rated higher or lower than the First Division (or championship as they call it now) teams? Who decides this? There is a catalog of fallacies and ill thought out reasoning to this monstosity of a competition. For example, St Mirren under 20s finished fifth in the development squad league - yet their first team obviously finished lower in the league structure. Look on P & B and there is almost wholesale condemnation and WTF reactions to what Cockwomble and his working group committee have forced on the clubs. That's from fans of all clubs, from your premier league to seaside leagues, and all in between. There has been NO consultation with the clubs, let alone the fans. Clubs were told the day before the announcement what form the Challenge Cup would take on this coming season. There is no excitement at fans going to see likes of Killie under 20s v Elgin, Falkirk v Dingwall under 20s or Stranraer v Caley under 20's, or any other such ties that could be thrown up. And then what about the Welsh or Irish games, how many fans are realistically going to travel to it? Look at Bath for example, nice away trip, would like to go, but costs are hefty to say the least.

 

Look at the under 20's - where will they play their games? Hardly any of the Premier League teams play their under 20's at their own ground, often using other clubs grounds or even training complexes - and they are all invariably free entry - so, what they going to charge for them in the Challenge cup? Then there is the talk about if a player is on a development loan, and his parent club is drawn against his loan club, which team is he allowed to play for? Then there is the extension of thought whereby under 20 loans could diminish in number, as parent clubs hold on to more youngsters instead of sending out on loan, and even if that loan is delayed for only to end of the month of August, that's anything between 8 and 12 games youngsters could miss out on, playing alongside more experienced and physical players (minimum league cup x 4, league games 4 or 5, plus several potential Challenge Cup games) where they could be playing at a lower league team getting first team action, as opposed to being retained and maybe only featuring in one or two Challenge cup games, where they will be playing alongside a whole team of less experienced and less physical players against a whole team of more experienced and physical players - hardly a fair match up, or a means to help them get more experience as Cockwombles statements laughingly claim.

 

Then there is the costs - we all know how hard it is for clubs to make money from Challenge Cup games in the past, and it's only negligibly financially beneficial if a club reaches the final or semis. If crowds are already low for these ties, do Cockwomble & Co think they are going to rise with this new format? From what I gather, crowds of new lows are predicted such is the kickback from the "diddy clubs" fans. Players will still need to be paid appearance money. Win bonuses, goal bonuses, clean sheet bonuses, whatever they have in their contracts. Clubs will have to fork out their usual matchday costs, for games that will in the majority, likely see well below their average attendance. Whether that's travelling or hosting the game, stewarding, policing, ground staff, electricity, and the whole long list of associated match costs. Will the gates be split? I could go on and on, but will bring this to a close soon, fact is, there is so much wrong with this format, with very little and negligible benefit to only a few clubs, and the Challenge Cup is going to be more financially burdening than beneficial to the majority of clubs, no matter how few or how many matches they end up playing in it.

 

Will wrap this up, with the following thought. The introduction of the Under 20s is for one reason and one reason alone. This is the precursor to bring in, initially by stealth, two colt teams in particular, into the league set up. Cockwomble and his working commitee group (reps of Cellic, the Sheep (who always roll over for two clubs), Downdee Utd (to be replaced by a Sevco rep), Alloa, Raith and Brechin) want to see these two odious clubs have colt teams in lower leagues. By this starting point, they can in future use this precedent to force through their main goal.

 

The best thing that can happen (even though it will initially hurt their own clubs) is to not go to any of these Challenge Cup games, and let it die on it's arse. It is now a batshit mental bonkers competition devalued by seeding, under 20s vs big brute teams, the Irish and Welsh teams viewed as being the highest seeded as they come in last, it is a complete (and ongoing) reflection of Cockwombles dumbing down and talking down of our game. The sooner he gets sacked and chased, the better.

Edited June 10, 2016 by north stander

[Garscube Road End]

 

 

I assume the Welsh and Northern Irish clubs can be drawn at home. Unless heavily subsidised I'd have thought an away trip out of Scotland would just about bankrupt some part time clubs. I remember being told that an ideal draw in the Challenge Cup for us was an away tie to a nearby club. No home running costs and limited travel costs. The minute you have to travel a distance you're lucky to break even.

 

Apparently any club that travels outside their country will get £4000 as a help.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Apparently any club that travels outside their country will get £4000 as a help.

 

Ah

[West Ender]

Sounds like a complete dogs dinner of a format. With no one having complete ownership and no well defined constituency. It will be hard for it to gain a foothold in the crowded football schedule.

Edited June 10, 2016 by West Ender

[Tom Hosie]

Apparently any club that travels outside their country will get £4000 as a help.

 

Berwick hoping for lots of away draws then? £4k to nip over to Edinburgh to play Edinburgh City.

 

I jest of course.

[jaggy]

 

 

I assume the Welsh and Northern Irish clubs can be drawn at home. Unless heavily subsidised I'd have thought an away trip out of Scotland would just about bankrupt some part time clubs. I remember being told that an ideal draw in the Challenge Cup for us was an away tie to a nearby club. No home running costs and limited travel costs. The minute you have to travel a distance you're lucky to break even.

I think I read that one team from each of Wales and Northern Ireland are guaranteed a home tie. The whole thing seems shambolic to me

[Lenziejag]

Personally, I don't get the furore around u20s playing in this. It is a regular occurrence that the younger teams from bigger clubs play lower league opposition in pre season friendlies. A few years ago we had a preseason tournament with Everton and Celtic youngsters and a couple of seasons ago played Sunderland. Having said that I am not sure that they should play in the Challenge cup, but it isn't a farcical decision. Time will tell whether the Welsh and Irish teams deserved later entry than the Championship teams. However, again we have had a cross border tournament in the past. It was called the Dryborough Cup, but I don't think it lasted too long.

[Jaggernaut]

It sounds like an utter dog's breakfast.

 

Stand by for two clubs' youth teams getting to play in the lower divisions, the Scottish Cup etc.

[Third Lanark]

While it may sound like a shambles there is still I feel some sense we could get money from this. We could draw Hibernuan at Easter road for example and therefore get half the gate money etc while alternatively there is also the chance to get to grounds we have not seen much of eg Elgin

[JeanieD]

Seems a bit of a dog's dinner but perhaps worth the experiment for a competition which hasn't really gained too much credibility over its lifetime.

 

Of course the cynic might suggest that the SPFL could be salivating at the prospect of a Under 20 Sevco v. Under 20 Green bigot all singing all dancing sectarian final - or even better perhaps manipulate a Linfield v. Under 20 Green bigot final - think of the publicity and the hand-wringing the "unco-guid" could participate in when it all goes pear-shaped .

[Vaila Street]

Of course the cynic might suggest that the SPFL could be salivating at the prospect of a Under 20 Sevco v. Under 20 Green bigot all singing all dancing sectarian final - or even better perhaps manipulate a Linfield v. Under 20 Green bigot final - think of the publicity and the hand-wringing the "unco-guid" could participate in when it all goes pear-shaped .

Must every attempt for change be seen through this type of twisted perspective?

[sabbath]

Challenge Cup was fine the way it was. If they wanted to expand it, invite more HL/LL teams. Now it is four varying levels competitions in one (under 20s, leagues 1 to 3, HL & LL fodder, plus the Irish and Welsh invitees), and it is a clusterfukk monstrosity. Teams seeded in opening three rounds. Irish and Welsh parachuted in at round four (so play three games, and win it). How does the seeding work? For example, are the Premier League teams (under 20's) rated higher or lower than the First Division (or championship as they call it now) teams? Who decides this? There is a catalog of fallacies and ill thought out reasoning to this monstosity of a competition. For example, St Mirren under 20s finished fifth in the development squad league - yet their first team obviously finished lower in the league structure. Look on P & B and there is almost wholesale condemnation and WTF reactions to what Cockwomble and his working group committee have forced on the clubs. That's from fans of all clubs, from your premier league to seaside leagues, and all in between. There has been NO consultation with the clubs, let alone the fans. Clubs were told the day before the announcement what form the Challenge Cup would take on this coming season. There is no excitement at fans going to see likes of Killie under 20s v Elgin, Falkirk v Dingwall under 20s or Stranraer v Caley under 20's, or any other such ties that could be thrown up. And then what about the Welsh or Irish games, how many fans are realistically going to travel to it? Look at Bath for example, nice away trip, would like to go, but costs are hefty to say the least. Look at the under 20's - where will they play their games? Hardly any of the Premier League teams play their under 20's at their own ground, often using other clubs grounds or even training complexes - and they are all invariably free entry - so, what they going to charge for them in the Challenge cup? Then there is the talk about if a player is on a development loan, and his parent club is drawn against his loan club, which team is he allowed to play for? Then there is the extension of thought whereby under 20 loans could diminish in number, as parent clubs hold on to more youngsters instead of sending out on loan, and even if that loan is delayed for only to end of the month of August, that's anything between 8 and 12 games youngsters could miss out on, playing alongside more experienced and physical players (minimum league cup x 4, league games 4 or 5, plus several potential Challenge Cup games) where they could be playing at a lower league team getting first team action, as opposed to being retained and maybe only featuring in one or two Challenge cup games, where they will be playing alongside a whole team of less experienced and less physical players against a whole team of more experienced and physical players - hardly a fair match up, or a means to help them get more experience as Cockwombles statements laughingly claim. Then there is the costs - we all know how hard it is for clubs to make money from Challenge Cup games in the past, and it's only negligibly financially beneficial if a club reaches the final or semis. If crowds are already low for these ties, do Cockwomble & Co think they are going to rise with this new format? From what I gather, crowds of new lows are predicted such is the kickback from the "diddy clubs" fans. Players will still need to be paid appearance money. Win bonuses, goal bonuses, clean sheet bonuses, whatever they have in their contracts. Clubs will have to fork out their usual matchday costs, for games that will in the majority, likely see well below their average attendance. Whether that's travelling or hosting the game, stewarding, policing, ground staff, electricity, and the whole long list of associated match costs. Will the gates be split? I could go on and on, but will bring this to a close soon, fact is, there is so much wrong with this format, with very little and negligible benefit to only a few clubs, and the Challenge Cup is going to be more financially burdening than beneficial to the majority of clubs, no matter how few or how many matches they end up playing in it. Will wrap this up, with the following thought. The introduction of the Under 20s is for one reason and one reason alone. This is the precursor to bring in, initially by stealth, two colt teams in particular, into the league set up. Cockwomble and his working commitee group (reps of Cellic, the Sheep (who always roll over for two clubs), Downdee Utd (to be replaced by a Sevco rep), Alloa, Raith and Brechin) want to see these two odious clubs have colt teams in lower leagues. By this starting point, they can in future use this precedent to force through their main goal. The best thing that can happen (even though it will initially hurt their own clubs) is to not go to any of these Challenge Cup games, and let it die on it's arse. It is now a batshit mental bonkers competition devalued by seeding, under 20s vs big brute teams, the Irish and Welsh teams viewed as being the highest seeded as they come in last, it is a complete (and ongoing) reflection of Cockwombles dumbing down and talking down of our game. The sooner he gets sacked and chased, the better.

since when does common sense and facts ever win an argument...Here try a pair of these rose tinted glasses..

[JeanieD]

Must every attempt for change be seen through this type of twisted perspective?

 

Nope and I note that you selectively edit my posting to eliminate the "worth the experiment" element - perhaps to serve your own agenda?

 

Of course I did suggest the cynic might take that view but the more "happy clappy" would take the opposite view that everything will be rosy and fine and it will be a big success and everyone will marvel at Doncaster's genius.

 

Whatever floats your boat..........................but just don't selectively quote

Edited June 11, 2016 by JeanieD

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Personally, I don't get the furore around u20s playing in this.

 

First I wasn't aware there is a "furore".

 

It's beneficial to us that a genuine U20 team can play against more senior players. Whether it'll bring benefit to the tournament we'll find out in due course but frankly it's such a low profile competition i doubt if many care. And I'm not coming from a top league perspective as I doubt I'd be alone in finding the tournament of little interest when we were in the lower divisions.

I thought a while back that it would've been better to exclude 2nd tier clubs and bring in non senior league clubs (as they're now doing). That would've made the competition more or less exclusive to part time teams.

Edited June 11, 2016 by lady-isobel-barnett

[Lenziejag]

 

 

First I was aware there is a "furore".

 

It's beneficial to us that a genuine U20 team can play against more senior players. Whether it'll bring benefit to the tournament we'll find out in due course but frankly it's such a low profile competition i doubt if many care. And I'm not coming from a top league perspective as I doubt I'd be alone in finding the tournament of little interest when we were in the lower divisions.

I thought a while back that it would've been better to exclude 2nd tier clubs and bring in non senior league clubs (as they're now doing). That would've made the competition more or less exclusive to part time teams.

 

I am not quite sure why you put furore in quotation marks, since you agree there is one. Or did you mean you weren't aware. In that case see P&B

 

You say there isn't much interest. Have you forgotten the 5,000 Jags fans that went to Livingston the year we got to the final ? Of course it is possible you mean in the early rounds, but that was also true of the League cup and increasingly with the Scottish cup.

 

Incidentally, I see that the EFL are going the same route with the Johnstones Trophy.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I am not quite sure why you put furore in quotation marks, since you agree there is one. Or did you mean you weren't aware. In that case see P&B

 

You say there isn't much interest. Have you forgotten the 5,000 Jags fans that went to Livingston the year we got to the final ? Of course it is possible you mean in the early rounds, but that was also true of the League cup and increasingly with the Scottish cup.

 

Incidentally, I see that the EFL are going the same route with the Johnstones Trophy.

 

Sorry, meant I wasn't aware.

 

I fail to see how there can be any great gnashing of teeth over changes to such a low key competition tho' got to say the revamp does appear experimental in the extreme.

I do still say there isn't much interest. Obviously folk are going to turn out for a final but have you forgotten the 1159 fans that turned out for the semi final?

[Lenziejag]

 

 

Sorry, meant I wasn't aware.

 

I fail to see how there can be any great gnashing of teeth over changes to such a low key competition tho' got to say the revamp does appear experimental in the extreme.

I do still say there isn't much interest. Obviously folk are going to turn out for a final but have you forgotten the 1159 fans that turned out for the semi final?

 

Which is probably more than usually go to Cowdenbeath for league games. i think though we are in general agreement - there is no need to get out of sorts about this, or changes to any of the other cup competitions. Experiments aren't bad. If we didn't experiment we wouldn't make progress. Admittedly they aren't always successfull