Fawlty Towers Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Incorrect - this was a previous Board the one that got us promoted traded at a profit for two Seasons before the Weirs Harkins ( and dont forget Twaddle) were not part of trading at a profit Jim, the statement made by Stuart was: "Before the Weirs cash we were trading at a profit and a sustainable business" The period I made reference to was before the Weirs cash so is correct. If Stuart had stated that under a particular Board we traded at a profit and as a sustainable business then I would have agreed. It might seem a little pedantic but I am a civil servant after all. I am fully aware that under David Beattie's chairmanship things were much improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said: Jim, the statement made by Stuart was: "Before the Weirs cash we were trading at a profit and a sustainable business" The period I made reference to was before the Weirs cash so is correct. If Stuart had stated that under a particular Board we traded at a profit and as a sustainable business then I would have agreed. It might seem a little pedantic but I am a civil servant after all. I am fully aware that under David Beattie's chairmanship things were much improved. We had one Season in the Championship One Season in the Premier - both profitable this was Pre Weir involvement - Stuart is correct The Season you refer to was before two Stuart refers to .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Passenger Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 32 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Incorrect - this was a previous Board the one that got us promoted traded at a profit for two Seasons before the Weirs This was the board that also got us relegated and, if you and norge are to be believed, set us on the path to dependency, yes? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: We had one Season in the Championship One Season in the Premier - both profitable this was Pre Weir involvement - Stuart is correct The Season you refer to was before two Stuart refers to .. Jim, I know that and I agree with it but that was not what was stated. I realise that you knew what Stuart meant (so did I) but the statement made was not precise and I just think it is important we are careful with words. Edited May 22, 2019 by Fawlty Towers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 6 hours ago, jaf said: That's my point exactly, so any cut in non playing staff increases the playing budget, so why must that be mentioned ad nauseum, its a basic fact The other point is, as I understand it, PR people are not the ones whose jobs are under threat, so your interpretation of the question is a little flawed A little pedantic......we have a limited budget which is pretty fixed every pound spent on non playing staff could be spent on players .....the choice has to be made you can’t just pretend we don’t now have severe financial constraints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: There is tough and there is basic economics - thats what they are there for to make the correct choices - we kept on ALL the office staff - including two FT Comms people ? Agreed....I think there was an element of either wishful thinking or head in the sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 There was a certain element of serendipity when we sold Harkins to Dundee. Had Harkins been temporarily unavailable to sign (on holiday for instance) it's highly likely that Dundee would have completed the signing of Bob Harris from Q o S. As it turned out Melville at Dens Pk pulled the plug after the signing of Harkins. From what I'm led to believe had it gone the other way, without the sale of Harkins, it's highly likely our cash flow would have come unstuck by mid autumn that year. The only point I'm trying to make is in highlighting a certain amount of good fortune exceeding good fiscal management under the regime back then. McCall had his faults but had he not converted Harkins from an inept centreback into an attacking midfielder we could easily have wandered into administration a decade ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 You can't rewrite history. It's the future that counts. We should have stabilised in the SPL and done more....but we didn't. Most clubs would be jealous of the financial support the Weirs have given us. But we are moaning because we have only ONE benefactor. Yes I get the point about we have to stand on our own two feet....but jeesus sometimes we just have to say we have been very fortunate in these challenging times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Dark Passenger said: This was the board that also got us relegated and, if you and norge are to be believed, set us on the path to dependency, yes? Relegation does not lead to dependancy - poor decisions on how you run the Club Finances leads to dependancy - Ive not however stated that - Ive questioned our finances ? Same Board got us a top six finish / your being selective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Relegation does not lead to dependancy - poor decisions on how you run the Club Finances leads to dependancy - Ive not however stated that - Ive questioned our finances ? Same Board got us a top six finish / your being selective I don't see it as selective. They did both. You guys know more than I know, but as far as I can see it was the previous people who made the decisions to maintain a premier budget and retain Alan Archibald. This left the current people in a difficult situation coming in. I'm not defending them, I don't really have a "side" in this debate, but would you not agree that this is true? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 16 hours ago, Lenziejag said: Is the 20K not the saving that will be made by not opening the Colin Weir stand ? Personally I'm supportive of what the club have to do to keep us trading. If it is a choice between maintaining a club to go and support and pushing into more debt to try and get promoted then it's an easy choice. I'm not having a go at the board for cutting back as @Firhillista is suggesting, if it's the difference between the above two choices then carry on and make sure the club survives financially and to hang with promotion. I just think that the decision to sack/let go an employee who has proven his worth in bringing additional income streams into the club just to save 20k is the wrong decision. 20k put into the playing squad is not going to get us much and if RQ maintained previous performance he would bring in more money than the 20k that is being saved. I just think it is a false economic decision. And I'm not saying for a minute I would do any better but I wouldn't have done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, allyo said: I don't see it as selective. They did both. You guys know more than I know, but as far as I can see it was the previous people who made the decisions to maintain a premier budget and retain Alan Archibald. This left the current people in a difficult situation coming in. I'm not defending them, I don't really have a "side" in this debate, but would you not agree that this is true? Only Two Directors left Post relegation - therefore the other Directors that remained were both Party to and must have agreed with the decision - therefore Im not giving those who resigned a Free Pass - but they are no longer there - as it became clear that the Revenues and Crowds were not anywhere near the premier and that chances of Promotion were highly unlikely they should have addressed the overhead - instead they just saying Promotion was the Plan - and kept an overhead to reflect this - now you can say Promotion is the Aim - but Plan for not going up thats two different things - one is an objective the other is a reflection of reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 Ok. So this brutal regime that is ripping the heart out of the club should have been sacking people earlier. Is that the argument here? Or do you just mean shutting the stand, that sort of thing. I assume you are not opposed to the mid season signings, which I reckon saved us from league 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, allyo said: Ok. So this brutal regime that is ripping the heart out of the club should have been sacking people earlier. Is that the argument here? Or do you just mean shutting the stand, that sort of thing. I assume you are not opposed to the mid season signings, which I reckon saved us from league 1. No, one of the arguments on here is that no matter what the board, CEO or manager do, it's wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 League prize money for all clubs just announced. The difference of finishing even a place or 2 higher would have made an significant difference. I hope we didn’t budget expected prize money on promotion and this cash is a bonus. Ladbrokes Premiership Celtic – £2,058,999.60 Rangers – £1,115,000.40 Kilmarnock – £794,000.40 Aberdeen – £573,999.60 Hibernian – £464,000.40 Heart of Midlothian – £354,000.00 St Johnstone – £453,000.00 Motherwell – £398,000.40 Livingston – £342,999.60 Hamilton Academical – £288,000.00 St Mirren – £233,000.40 Dundee – £177,999.60 Ladbrokes Championship Ross County – £402,960.00 Dundee United – £313,959.60 Inverness Caledonian Thistle – £241,959.60 Ayr United – £169,959.60 Greenock Morton – £94,359.60 Partick Thistle – £69,960.00 Dunfermline Athletic – £58,959.60 Alloa Athletic – £47,960.40 Queen of the South – £36,960.00 Falkirk – £25,959.60 Ladbrokes League 1 Arbroath – £62,408.40 Forfar Athletic – £44,607.60 Raith Rovers – £23,408.40 Montrose – £21,207.60 Airdrieonians – £19,008.00 Dumbarton – £16,808.40 East Fife – £14,607.60 Stranraer – £12,408.00 Stenhousemuir – £10,208.40 Brechin City – £8,007.60 Ladbrokes League 2 Peterhead – £27,996.00 Clyde – £25,796.40 Edinburgh City – £23,595.60 Annan Athletic – £21,396.00 Stirling Albion – £17,996.40 Cowdenbeath – £15,795.60 Queen's Park – £13,596.00 Elgin City – £11,396.40 Albion Rovers – £9,195.60 Berwick Rangers – £6,996.00 Total – £9,122,438.40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) Geeeeezus, that's pretty crushing figures for the "smaller" clubs. And I include us in that category. So our income stream is this, gates, match day sales, merchandise and any income from charging parents for sending their kids to the academy. It's not much. Shows why RC benefited from a sugar dad in Roy macgregor. I'm seeing more and more why the savings are being made, and why they should have been done sooner. Don't have to like it though. Anyone know of any other income the club gets? Is this figure from elevenone including TV revenue. Edited May 23, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) I'm actually surprised at how flat it is, with significant overlap between the leagues. Where's the incentive for being promoted from league 1 to league 2? Financially better off just finishing second in league 2 every year and then throwing the play off Edited May 23, 2019 by allyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 So even if we did invest money to go to Tenerife that money was essentially recovered by our increased league placing. Pity we never caught Morton though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, elevenone said: League prize money for all clubs just announced. The difference of finishing even a place or 2 higher would have made an significant difference. I hope we didn’t budget expected prize money on promotion and this cash is a bonus. Ladbrokes Premiership Celtic – £2,058,999.60 Rangers – £1,115,000.40 Kilmarnock – £794,000.40 Aberdeen – £573,999.60 Hibernian – £464,000.40 Heart of Midlothian – £354,000.00 St Johnstone – £453,000.00 Motherwell – £398,000.40 Livingston – £342,999.60 Hamilton Academical – £288,000.00 St Mirren – £233,000.40 Dundee – £177,999.60 Ladbrokes Championship Ross County – £402,960.00 Dundee United – £313,959.60 Inverness Caledonian Thistle – £241,959.60 Ayr United – £169,959.60 Greenock Morton – £94,359.60 Partick Thistle – £69,960.00 Dunfermline Athletic – £58,959.60 Alloa Athletic – £47,960.40 Queen of the South – £36,960.00 Falkirk – £25,959.60 Ladbrokes League 1 Arbroath – £62,408.40 Forfar Athletic – £44,607.60 Raith Rovers – £23,408.40 Montrose – £21,207.60 Airdrieonians – £19,008.00 Dumbarton – £16,808.40 East Fife – £14,607.60 Stranraer – £12,408.00 Stenhousemuir – £10,208.40 Brechin City – £8,007.60 Ladbrokes League 2 Peterhead – £27,996.00 Clyde – £25,796.40 Edinburgh City – £23,595.60 Annan Athletic – £21,396.00 Stirling Albion – £17,996.40 Cowdenbeath – £15,795.60 Queen's Park – £13,596.00 Elgin City – £11,396.40 Albion Rovers – £9,195.60 Berwick Rangers – £6,996.00 Total – £9,122,438.40 St.Johnstone and Motherwell who finished below Hearts get more. How does that work ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) I’m not sure how they arrived at St J and Motherwell getting more cash than Hearts? Points earned maybe as I think both might have ended with more than Hearts?? Also as allyo points out seems odd that finishing yearly in top half of League2 is more an incentive than finishing in bottom half of League1. Edited May 23, 2019 by elevenone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, elevenone said: I’m not sure how they arrived at St J and Motherwell getting more cash than Hearts? Points earned maybe as I think both might have ended with more than Hearts?? Also as allyo points out seems odd that finishing yearly in top half of League2 is more an incentive than finishing in bottom half of League1. Thanks elevenone never thought of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, dl1971 said: So even if we did invest money to go to Tenerife that money was essentially recovered by our increased league placing. Pity we never caught Morton though.... We shouldn’t have had to do that with the budget we had last season, mismanaged totally between Archie and Caldwell. No other team on lesser budgets deemed it necessary to go to a “ training camp “ , the 25k could have got us another player for next season. Other teams round about us in the league like Dunfermline, Morton and part time Alloa all won games without having to do that . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, elevenone said: I’m not sure how they arrived at St J and Motherwell getting more cash than Hearts? Points earned maybe as I think both might have ended with more than Hearts?? Also as allyo points out seems odd that finishing yearly in top half of League2 is more an incentive than finishing in bottom half of League1. I think St J got 1 more point - Motherwell less. In any case the only incentive for getting into the top 6 is the hope you have a home game or 2 versus Rangers and Celtic ? I think it is a typo - should be 454,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, jlsarmy said: We shouldn’t have had to do that with the budget we had last season, mismanaged totally between Archie and Caldwell. No other team on lesser budgets deemed it necessary to go to a “ training camp “ , the 25k could have got us another player for next season. Other teams round about us in the league like Dunfermline, Morton and part time Alloa all won games without having to do that . 25k wouldn't get much of a player....Anyway what budget did Caldwell mismanage? I think the vast majority of his signings did well, bar Roy. Mansell I'm not sure about but I doubt we spent much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted May 23, 2019 Report Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, dl1971 said: 25k wouldn't get much of a player....Anyway what budget did Caldwell mismanage? I think the vast majority of his signings did well, bar Roy. Mansell I'm not sure about but I doubt we spent much. Gary Harkins 18 month contract? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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