Hearts Viaplay Cup - Sunday 20 August

[Jaggernaut]

14 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Would you drop Aero or David Mitchell for their mistakes ?

I haven't called for anybody to be dropped.

[Jaggernaut]

Just a thought about the "cosy club" and "jobs for the boys" mentality that some people claim permeates Firhill:

I give you Gary Caldwell.

How does that appointment fall into the category?

And how cosy and successful was that experience?

[Lenziejag]

12 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

OK - the facts are that we got into the Playoffs due to results at other Games - we squeezed in by the Skin of our Teeth 

No one is disputing how we got to the Final - however serious Questions have to be asked regards being 3-0 with 20 Minutes to go and blowing it - when that sort of thing starts happening the next Season its an issue 

Bannigan could be replaced by a Younger Fitter Player - he did nothing that in any other Club that would get you a 2 Year Contract Extension 

The Signing of Bannigan - losing leads in the last 20 Minutes - its pointing to far too cosy a set up on Multi Levels and as Ive said - the same feeling under Archie the Season we got relegated     

As for Season Tickets - lots of people stopped buying them under JLo - so you cant equate increases simply due to Dools     

So you do think an other manager would have taken us to the playoff’s.

Who is the filter younger Bannigan type player ?

I agree with you about the ST’s, but if we had slithered to 7th or 8th we wouldn’t have got to nearly 3,000

[Lenziejag]

12 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

I have never said there is a "Conspiracy" - I think we are far too cosy on Multi Levels to be successful   

What is successful in your eyes ?

[Jordanhill Jag]

48 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

So you do think an other manager would have taken us to the playoff’s.

Who is the filter younger Bannigan type player ?

I agree with you about the ST’s, but if we had slithered to 7th or 8th we wouldn’t have got to nearly 3,000

I think another Manager would have had a Game Plan on how to react if Ross County scored - slow down play - break it up - keep hold of the ball ie Negative Football - however there was an arrogance that Thistle would play "positive Football" as everyone was raving about it 

I have no idea who the "fitter younger Bannigan " player is - thats the Managers Job - however Bannigan adds very little - to give him a Two Year Contract is nonsense 

Results in other Matches had gone the wrong way in the last day of the Season we would have finished Sixth - we got into the Play offs by the skin of our teeth    

[Jordanhill Jag]

50 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

What is successful in your eyes ?

Being more ruthless on every level - on the park and off it - every penny going to the First Team Budget & Youth Development - look for Younger Keener Players who have something to prove ( eg Jackie Mac )  - stop the Jobs for the Boys Culture that seems to have dominated the Club for decades ( on the park & off it ) 

Actually show some ambition 

eg the Play Off Final - throwing away a three Goal Lead with 20 Minutes to go was disgraceful - we act as though we had won - talk about how great the Football was up to the Play Off Final - we blew it - yet we somehow ignore that fact ?   

Where was the Game Plan if Ross County scored ? Why has no one ever questioned why we totally collapsed when it happened ? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

4 hours ago, Jaggernaut said:

Just a thought about the "cosy club" and "jobs for the boys" mentality that some people claim permeates Firhill:

I give you Gary Caldwell.

How does that appointment fall into the category?

And how cosy and successful was that experience?

Every Club appoints Poor Managers  - its part of the Game - it doesnt mean you dont look outside your Comfort Zone  

[dl1971]

58 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Being more ruthless on every level - on the park and off it - every penny going to the First Team Budget & Youth Development - look for Younger Keener Players who have something to prove ( eg Jackie Mac )  - stop the Jobs for the Boys Culture that seems to have dominated the Club for decades ( on the park & off it ) 

Actually show some ambition 

eg the Play Off Final - throwing away a three Goal Lead with 20 Minutes to go was disgraceful - we act as though we had won - talk about how great the Football was up to the Play Off Final - we blew it - yet we somehow ignore that fact ?   

Where was the Game Plan if Ross County scored ? Why has no one ever questioned why we totally collapsed when it happened ? 

I think you need to move on from the play off game. We all seen it, endured it, felt it. No amount of hand wringing will change it. For the record it has been comprehensively scrutinised by many on this forum and indeed social media. To say no-one has questioned it seems odd. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by dl1971
Typo

[Jordanhill Jag]

36 minutes ago, dl1971 said:

I think you need to move on from the play off game. We all seen it, endured it, felt it. No amount of hand wringing will change it. For the record it has been comprehensively scrutinised by many on this forum and indeed social media. To say no-one has questioned it seems odd. 

OK - I will rephase that - No one has Questioned the Manager & his Tactics - however time will tell

If it had been another Manager they would have been crucified   

[jlsarmy]

Just now, Jordanhill Jag said:

OK - I will rephase that - No one has Questioned the Manager & his Tactics - however time will tell

If it had been another Manager they would have been crucified   

You’re actually only talking about 3 or 4 games in Kris Doolan’s remit that come into debate .

Which is fine as the other 23/24 games were mostly good

If you want to go back to MCCall’s and Archie’s mistakes in their tenure , we could be here a while 

Give Dools a chance to build the Club 

[Lenziejag]

2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Being more ruthless on every level - on the park and off it - every penny going to the First Team Budget & Youth Development - look for Younger Keener Players who have something to prove ( eg Jackie Mac )  - stop the Jobs for the Boys Culture that seems to have dominated the Club for decades ( on the park & off it ) 

Actually show some ambition 

eg the Play Off Final - throwing away a three Goal Lead with 20 Minutes to go was disgraceful - we act as though we had won - talk about how great the Football was up to the Play Off Final - we blew it - yet we somehow ignore that fact ?   

Where was the Game Plan if Ross County scored ? Why has no one ever questioned why we totally collapsed when it happened ? 

We were ruthless in the sacking of McCall - you didn’t like that.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

10 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

We were ruthless in the sacking of McCall - you didn’t like that.

We certainly were ruthless in terms of the timing. I guess that could've waited till the Monday.

I won't argue about the "jobs for the boys" mentality, perceived or otherwise. However I don't think it should be seen as polarised. When McNamara jumped ship we needed a temporary manager pronto. Effectively the only fella that could fill that role was Archibald. That would buy us time to dig out a suitable permanent manager and at the same time allow continuity. Obviously AA did more than enough to get the gig full time.

There's a parallel here regarding Doolan. If you believe the sacking of McCall was timely then I can only imagine the appointment of Kris as temp manager makes complete sense. Perhaps even more so than Archibald in that McCall, popular with the players, hadn't left on his own volition. Again it's easy enough to see why Doolan was appointed permanent manager. Favourable results aside, the performance levels were considerably heightened.

I don't myself see much wrong with the appointment of ex players to roles at Firhill. One has even a stand named after him. Another should have our training complex honoured in his name. Donnie McKinnon served us well after he hung up his boots. Who knows maybe a few ex players living down south would make better scouts than we have at the moment?

In my mind it's not the jobs for the boys attitude at fault. Where we've gone wrong in the past is showing excess loyalty to the "Thistle Minded". Like many I believe Archie should've been offski a season earlier. Gerry Britton as a manager was allowed too much time. Perhaps now in terms of contracts we're showing excess loyalty to Bannigan, and about to do the same with Graham?

Ironic then that about only time we've been ruthlessly punctual in dismissal of a "Thistle Minded" fella was with McCall.     

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

We were ruthless in the sacking of McCall - you didn’t like that.

I've detailed why I was angry ref McCall Being sacked on a previous reply to you - and made clear that I accepted Fans thought he should go - however the manner in which it was done was disgraceful - the fact that it was seen as a priority - rather than deal with serious issues on Club Finances - leaves Questions as to priorities on the Board - we were not getting relegated - neither were we going to win the League 

McCall was not liked by various Fans - I get that - he can be hard work and I say that as a friend   - but my Gut Feel  given the manner-  and that the Finances were a disaster is that it was more personal than Football - just my opinion

Archie was not sacked after relegation - he was a "Thistle Legend"    

[Jordanhill Jag]

40 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

We certainly were ruthless in terms of the timing. I guess that could've waited till the Monday.

I won't argue about the "jobs for the boys" mentality, perceived or otherwise. However I don't think it should be seen as polarised. When McNamara jumped ship we needed a temporary manager pronto. Effectively the only fella that could fill that role was Archibald. That would buy us time to dig out a suitable permanent manager and at the same time allow continuity. Obviously AA did more than enough to get the gig full time.

There's a parallel here regarding Doolan. If you believe the sacking of McCall was timely then I can only imagine the appointment of Kris as temp manager makes complete sense. Perhaps even more so than Archibald in that McCall, popular with the players, hadn't left on his own volition. Again it's easy enough to see why Doolan was appointed permanent manager. Favourable results aside, the performance levels were considerably heightened.

I don't myself see much wrong with the appointment of ex players to roles at Firhill. One has even a stand named after him. Another should have our training complex honoured in his name. Donnie McKinnon served us well after he hung up his boots. Who knows maybe a few ex players living down south would make better scouts than we have at the moment?

In my mind it's not the jobs for the boys attitude at fault. Where we've gone wrong in the past is showing excess loyalty to the "Thistle Minded". Like many I believe Archie should've been offski a season earlier. Gerry Britton as a manager was allowed too much time. Perhaps now in terms of contracts we're showing excess loyalty to Bannigan, and about to do the same with Graham?

Ironic then that about only time we've been ruthlessly punctual in dismissal of a "Thistle Minded" fella was with McCall.     

So the serious Question - is why did the Directors Rush back from there Comfy Seats in the Directors Box at Ibrox - after taking the plaudits for a Good Performance from the Rangers Directors   - after Banking the 300K - that in effect kept us afloat as we were in dire financial straights 

Why would you be soo desperate to fire someone that day rather than wait to the Monday - we were still a point away from a Play Off - results had been poor previous games - but not a disaster 

Why would they be sooo desperate to do it straight after the Game ( and what would have happened if we had won ) 

Sorry to labour this - but why would the Directors act in such a manner ? 

What had McCall done so be treated in such a Fashion - couple of dodgy results against the Accies & Cove ? Is that it ?   

 

  

[jlsarmy]

24 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So the serious Question - is why did the Directors Rush back from there Comfy Seats in the Directors Box at Ibrox - after taking the plaudits for a Good Performance from the Rangers Directors   - after Banking the 300K - that in effect kept us afloat as we were in dire financial straights 

Why would you be soo desperate to fire someone that day rather than wait to the Monday - we were still a point away from a Play Off - results had been poor previous games - but not a disaster 

Why would they be sooo desperate to do it straight after the Game ( and what would have happened if we had won ) 

Sorry to labour this - but why would the Directors act in such a manner ? 

What had McCall done so be treated in such a Fashion - couple of dodgy results against the Accies & Cove ? Is that it ?   

 

  

Getting beat by the 2 bottom teams in the League ( Cove and Hamilton) at home wasn’t a disaster ?

Probably cost us automatic promotion 

Not sure about your disaster threshold!

[Barney Rubble]

32 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So the serious Question - is why did the Directors Rush back from there Comfy Seats in the Directors Box at Ibrox - after taking the plaudits for a Good Performance from the Rangers Directors   - after Banking the 300K - that in effect kept us afloat as we were in dire financial straights 

Why would you be soo desperate to fire someone that day rather than wait to the Monday - we were still a point away from a Play Off - results had been poor previous games - but not a disaster 

Why would they be sooo desperate to do it straight after the Game ( and what would have happened if we had won ) 

Sorry to labour this - but why would the Directors act in such a manner ? 

What had McCall done so be treated in such a Fashion - couple of dodgy results against the Accies & Cove ? Is that it ?   

 

  

I've said before that in all likelihood the decision to fire him had already been taken ahead of the cup-tie in anticipation of a horsing similar to that which Hearts administered on Sunday. When that horsing did not transpire, it made the manner and timing of the removal seem insensitive.

However, was McCall's removal justified? In my opinion, yes as the previous two performances on their own were beyond unacceptable.

As regards your question in bold above - perhaps it would be more accurately answered by Ian McCall himself rather than by anyone who posts on this forum.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Barney Rubble

[Lenziejag]

36 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

I've detailed why I was angry ref McCall Being sacked on a previous reply to you - and made clear that I accepted Fans thought he should go - however the manner in which it was done was disgraceful - the fact that it was seen as a priority - rather than deal with serious issues on Club Finances - leaves Questions as to priorities on the Board - we were not getting relegated - neither were we going to win the League 

McCall was not liked by various Fans - I get that - he can be hard work and I say that as a friend   - but my Gut Feel  given the manner-  and that the Finances were a disaster is that it was more personal than Football - just my opinion

Archie was not sacked after relegation - he was a "Thistle Legend"    

I always felt that McCall’s dismissal was more than football related. We knew there were financial issues, we just didn’t know how bad they were until after the Ross County game. Maybe, if we had beaten Rangers he would’ve have kept his job. Maybe you know more or McCall’s take on it. 
You don’t sacking him and his 2 assistants was dealing with the financial issues ? That’s how businesses usually do it.

[laukat]

6 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

So you do think an other manager would have taken us to the playoff’s.

Who is the filter younger Bannigan type player ?

I agree with you about the ST’s, but if we had slithered to 7th or 8th we wouldn’t have got to nearly 3,000

I've often wondered how Bannigan's role in the team would be described when identifying a replacement. If we were recruiting for a normal job and looked to advertise the post would it look like the following?

'Partick Thistle have an exciting job opportunity to be a Scottish Championship professional footballer.

The role is a custom midfield role. We expect you not to be strong enough defensively to play as a traditional 6 nor do we expect you to be able to run beyond the opposition defence into their 18 yard box and play as an "8" .We also have no expectations of even a smidgen of creativity that would make you remotely able to play as a "10". We do expect you to run a lot, we need you to pick up the ball and break forward into promising attacking positions and then pick the safest pass possible.

We don't expect you to tackle and when you do we fully expect you will pick up a yellow card and the occasional red . We don't need the successful applicant to provide many goals or assists with the previous post holder contributed 1 goal and 6 assists in the previous 2 championship seasons.

The post offers an attractive salary and the long term security of a 2 year contract. There is also a testimonial season after 10 years seasons even if some of those seasons you are injured and unable to play'

 

[Yellow & Redneck]

9 minutes ago, laukat said:

I've often wondered how Bannigan's role in the team would be described when identifying a replacement. If we were recruiting for a normal job and looked to advertise the post would it look like the following?

'Partick Thistle have an exciting job opportunity to be a Scottish Championship professional footballer.

The role is a custom midfield role. We expect you not to be strong enough defensively to play as a traditional 6 nor do we expect you to be able to run beyond the opposition defence into their 18 yard box and play as an "8" .We also have no expectations of even a smidgen of creativity that would make you remotely able to play as a "10". We do expect you to run a lot, we need you to pick up the ball and break forward into promising attacking positions and then pick the safest pass possible.

We don't expect you to tackle and when you do we fully expect you will pick up a yellow card and the occasional red . We don't need the successful applicant to provide many goals or assists with the previous post holder contributed 1 goal and 6 assists in the previous 2 championship seasons.

The post offers an attractive salary and the long term security of a 2 year contract. There is also a testimonial season after 10 years seasons even if some of those seasons you are injured and unable to play'

 

Would the post holder be expected to score penalties? 

[Lenziejag]

19 minutes ago, laukat said:

I've often wondered how Bannigan's role in the team would be described when identifying a replacement. If we were recruiting for a normal job and looked to advertise the post would it look like the following?

'Partick Thistle have an exciting job opportunity to be a Scottish Championship professional footballer.

The role is a custom midfield role. We expect you not to be strong enough defensively to play as a traditional 6 nor do we expect you to be able to run beyond the opposition defence into their 18 yard box and play as an "8" .We also have no expectations of even a smidgen of creativity that would make you remotely able to play as a "10". We do expect you to run a lot, we need you to pick up the ball and break forward into promising attacking positions and then pick the safest pass possible.

We don't expect you to tackle and when you do we fully expect you will pick up a yellow card and the occasional red . We don't need the successful applicant to provide many goals or assists with the previous post holder contributed 1 goal and 6 assists in the previous 2 championship seasons.

The post offers an attractive salary and the long term security of a 2 year contract. There is also a testimonial season after 10 years seasons even if some of those seasons you are injured and unable to play'

 

So why has he been a constant in just about every Thistle team for 10 years ?

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

I always felt that McCall’s dismissal was more than football related. We knew there were financial issues, we just didn’t know how bad they were until after the Ross County game. Maybe, if we had beaten Rangers he would’ve have kept his job. Maybe you know more or McCall’s take on it. 
You don’t sacking him and his 2 assistants was dealing with the financial issues ? That’s how businesses usually do it.

The sacking of McCall & his Two assistants was nothing to do with Cost Saving - they were paid there Contracts 

Whilst I get the Football Bit - to make sacking the Manager a priority over dealing with the Finances is shall we say odd - to rush back from Ibrox to do so - smacks of people with an agenda 

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

So why has he been a constant in just about every Thistle team for 10 years ?

Because he is a "Thistle Legend" ?   

[dl1971]

2 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

So why has he been a constant in just about every Thistle team for 10 years ?

Simple answer. He's a good player playing a certain role that doesn't get the plaudits. Similar to Ross docherty who many posters had no time for....even though the stats showed he was a winner when in the team. There appear to be some who have a personal vendetta against bannigan. I've no time for that whether it is bannigan, or any other thistle player for that matter. 

[laukat]

2 hours ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

Would the post holder be expected to score penalties? 

Thats not an essential requirement of the role

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

I've said before that in all likelihood the decision to fire him had already been taken ahead of the cup-tie in anticipation of a horsing similar to that which Hearts administered on Sunday. When that horsing did not transpire, it made the manner and timing of the removal seem insensitive.

However, was McCall's removal justified? In my opinion, yes as the previous two performances on their own were beyond unacceptable.

As regards your question in bold above - perhaps it would be more accurately answered by Ian McCall himself rather than by anyone who posts on this forum.

I've always said - Managers get sacked all the time 

To prioritise the sacking over dealing with Finances ? 

To Rush back from Ibrox to do so ( rather than wait until the Monday Morning) ? 

That says more than just Football in my opinion  

Obviously having shown there ruthless side I expect the Board to be equally ruthless in the future