scotty Posted August 24, 2023 Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: My argument is that why given the very very serious issue we faced on finances would it be seen as “ important” enough to sit at a Board Meeting - go through the decision to sack the Manager - but ( and this is important) actually go to the bother of planning the rushing back from Ibrox to do so - all the time there is a huge thing sitting in the Corner with flashing lights called a £300K shortfall- shouting pick me pick me - Im the key issue but nope - instead lets plan our hasty return from Ibrox what does that say about the mindset ? unbelievable So you know for definate that the haste to give McCall the news of his sacking was pre-planned and deliberate? My first thoughts when I heard the timing was that a journalist had got hold of the news and was planning to publish. Do you also know that there was no consideration of ways to resolve the budget shortfall which in the eventuality of the cup draw was not needed? You may not find it unbelievable if you were not so narrow minded about the situation. Unless as I asked, you know for certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted August 24, 2023 Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 13 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So your looking down the Barrel of a £600K Black Hole and the strategy is lets see if we get lucky in the Draw ? Why not take all the Money you have in the Bank and bet it on Paddys Boy in the 2:30 at Newmarket - its the same thing !!! No it’s not. They didn’t have to put any money on it and only had to wait a couple of weeks to see if we could win a cup tie and get a good draw in the next round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted August 24, 2023 Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 The McCall sacking was an interesting one. I thought the timing was off and it was asking a lot of Doolan to step in and make sure we made top 4. Doolan did really well and got us into a position that didn't look likely under McCall. However at the time it seemed a marginal call on if replacing McCall would get us any higher up the league and you can't really blame the manager for spending on the playing squad if the board sanction it. So I often wondered if there was another reason behind it. Did the new board realise they needed to cost cut and asked McCall to bin one of his coaching staff to reduce costs and McCall said its all of us or none of us? Did the board take the view that McCall and coaching teams staff were getting paid too much and the sooner they acted the sooner there would be a cost reduction? Is Doolan and McDonald on significantly less than McCall, Archie and Scally? It was rumoured Kenny Arthur was working his notice at one point, was he actually ending his current contract and coming back on reduced terms? Maybe there was a financial aspect to removing McCall that wasn't just about how much had been spent on the playing squad or wasn't absolutely related to performances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpj Posted August 24, 2023 Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 9 hours ago, laukat said: The McCall sacking was an interesting one. I thought the timing was off and it was asking a lot of Doolan to step in and make sure we made top 4. Doolan did really well and got us into a position that didn't look likely under McCall. However at the time it seemed a marginal call on if replacing McCall would get us any higher up the league and you can't really blame the manager for spending on the playing squad if the board sanction it. So I often wondered if there was another reason behind it. Did the new board realise they needed to cost cut and asked McCall to bin one of his coaching staff to reduce costs and McCall said its all of us or none of us? Did the board take the view that McCall and coaching teams staff were getting paid too much and the sooner they acted the sooner there would be a cost reduction? Is Doolan and McDonald on significantly less than McCall, Archie and Scally? It was rumoured Kenny Arthur was working his notice at one point, was he actually ending his current contract and coming back on reduced terms? Maybe there was a financial aspect to removing McCall that wasn't just about how much had been spent on the playing squad or wasn't absolutely related to performances? As far as I understand (might have been said at TJF AGM) as they still had to pay notice period for McCall etc and Doolan and McDonald were already on payroll there was no saving or increased cost because of sacking decision in short term at least. Archie has now found a new job so presumably is no longer working notice period as garden leave so potential saving there now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 24, 2023 Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 1 hour ago, dpj said: As far as I understand (might have been said at TJF AGM) as they still had to pay notice period for McCall etc and Doolan and McDonald were already on payroll there was no saving or increased cost because of sacking decision in short term at least. Archie has now found a new job so presumably is no longer working notice period as garden leave so potential saving there now. This is correct - McCall and the Coaching Staff were being paid there full Contracts after they were sacked - nor was there any requests to cut the Football overhead - the obvious cuts if your struggling with Finances is Non First Team or Non Football overhead So my two questions are thus why would a Board make the marginal call on focussing time and energy on sacking the manager rather than dedicate therd time to dealing with the fact we were going bust ? why would a Board be so obsessed with sacking the manager that they rushed back from the Directors Box at Ibrox to sack him So for me it smacks of something beyond Football ( and for the record there was no wrongdoing on anything by McCall ) Your first duty as a Director is H&S your second duty is the Financial stability of the Club H&S was not an issue - Financial Stability was - but they choose sacking the Manager as a priority and rushed back from Ibrox to so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 9 hours ago, dpj said: As far as I understand (might have been said at TJF AGM) as they still had to pay notice period for McCall etc and Doolan and McDonald were already on payroll there was no saving or increased cost because of sacking decision in short term at least. Archie has now found a new job so presumably is no longer working notice period as garden leave so potential saving there now. The relevant bit of information that we don’t know for certain is what the contracts said regarding termination. Also, the way JJ is putting it is that the ONLY thing that the board were doing or planning to do was sack McCall, which I think highly unlikely. In fact, in one of the periodic videos, one of the Directors said that by the time that the full extent of the situation was made public, after the Ross County game, the situation was stabilised. So whatever actions they had put in place were working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 40 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: The relevant bit of information that we don’t know for certain is what the contracts said regarding termination. Also, the way JJ is putting it is that the ONLY thing that the board were doing or planning to do was sack McCall, which I think highly unlikely. In fact, in one of the periodic videos, one of the Directors said that by the time that the full extent of the situation was made public, after the Ross County game, the situation was stabilised. So whatever actions they had put in place were working. The Contracts were paid in full The situation was “ stabilised “ some time after McCall was sacked from what I can gather couple of Months later - the “ stabilising “ was our current Chairman putting in cash At the time of McCall sacking the Club still faced a large shortfall in income to get to the end of the Season whatever you think of McCall as a Manager the Directors involved first duty is the Financial Stability of the Club There is also a duty to treat people with dignity - the “Ibrox Rush” has serious questions to be answered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: The Contracts were paid in full The situation was “ stabilised “ some time after McCall was sacked from what I can gather couple of Months later - the “ stabilising “ was our current Chairman putting in cash At the time of McCall sacking the Club still faced a large shortfall in income to get to the end of the Season whatever you think of McCall as a Manager the Directors involved first duty is the Financial Stability of the Club There is also a duty to treat people with dignity - the “Ibrox Rush” has serious questions to be answered You keep saying the same things without providing the evidence. It doesn’t matter when the situation was stabilised, the actions that the board took stabilised it and if that took the chairman inputting cash, so be it - that’s what you expect in times of need ! You are right people are entitled to be treated with dignity and everyone has questioned the timing of the announcement. Wouldn’t the world be perfect if everybody treated everyone else with respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: The Contracts were paid in full The situation was “ stabilised “ some time after McCall was sacked from what I can gather couple of Months later - the “ stabilising “ was our current Chairman putting in cash At the time of McCall sacking the Club still faced a large shortfall in income to get to the end of the Season whatever you think of McCall as a Manager the Directors involved first duty is the Financial Stability of the Club There is also a duty to treat people with dignity - the “Ibrox Rush” has serious questions to be answered I presume you have a very good source on that bit? I'd assumed McCall and Scally were still on gardening leave and hoped Archie was now off the books now he has a new job As you perhaps have some inside information do you know if McCall was told the reason for his sacking and if that was purely poor results or was he asked to reduce costs by getting rid of Archie, Scally or Arthur? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, laukat said: I presume you have a very good source on that bit? I'd assumed McCall and Scally were still on gardening leave and hoped Archie was now off the books now he has a new job As you perhaps have some inside information do you know if McCall was told the reason for his sacking and if that was purely poor results or was he asked to reduce costs by getting rid of Archie, Scally or Arthur? Yes - I have good sources From what Im told it was purely Football - not finances - Manager and Coaches continued to be paid - however if this was the case to do this a point outside the Play off spot is shall we say “ strange” To do this whilst your facing the very real possibility of going bust - is frankly ridiculous To then actually take time and effort to rush back from the Rangers Directors Box to spring the “ Cunning Plan” that had been previously decided leaves huge question marks Sacking a Manager - decision was strange - but it happens However doing this whilst not focussing on finances - taking time to plan the “ Ibrox Rush” - there resignation offences in my opinion - simple as that Edited August 25, 2023 by Jordanhill Jag 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: You keep saying the same things without providing the evidence. It doesn’t matter when the situation was stabilised, the actions that the board took stabilised it and if that took the chairman inputting cash, so be it - that’s what you expect in times of need ! You are right people are entitled to be treated with dignity and everyone has questioned the timing of the announcement. Wouldn’t the world be perfect if everybody treated everyone else with respect. At the time of the Sacking - the Finances were not “ stabilised “ which is the key point - if for actions to stabilise you mean going round with the begging bowl to try and get someone to bail you out - maybe we should look to get better people if thats the best they could do to stop us going bust They must have been feeling very smart sitting in the Rangers Directors Box - all waiting to rush back to spring there “ Cunning Plan” but the solution to the Finances ? Was the equivalent of asking outside Central Station for 10p for a Cup of Tea So as there seems to be no logical reason ( nor has anyone provided one that Im aware of ) to rushing back from Ibrox to sack the Manager rather than wait until the Monday Morning then its reasonable to question the motives for such actions Edited August 25, 2023 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggy Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 Dear Admins. Please close this tedious thread that none of us know the answers too. I don’t know how many times the ‘Ibrox rush’ has been mentioned, now have ‘cunning plan’ 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 15 minutes ago, jaggy said: Dear Admins. Please close this tedious thread that none of us know the answers too. I don’t know how many times the ‘Ibrox rush’ has been mentioned, now have ‘cunning plan’ Hear hear. Why this has been resurrected is beyond me. Let it go guys. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 16 minutes ago, Jimbo said: Hear hear. Why this has been resurrected is beyond me. Let it go guys. Because people who made the decisions are still involved in running the Club yes its “ tedious” but at some point there will be “ other “ decisions - so the previous “ decisions” should be called out but I will leave it for others to decide on the merits 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Because people who made the decisions are still involved in running the Club yes its “ tedious” but at some point there will be “ other “ decisions - so the previous “ decisions” should be called out but I will leave it for others to decide on the merits Maybe it's just me but I don't get the connection between McCall's sacking and a League Cup game at Tynecastle. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Because people who made the decisions are still involved in running the Club yes its “ tedious” but at some point there will be “ other “ decisions - so the previous “ decisions” should be called out but I will leave it for others to decide on the merits So, for the nth time you say that "people who made the decisions" should be nowhere near the club. What, exactly, do you want to see take place? A "cunning plan" hatched to get them out now, regardless of any cost (as if two wrongs make a right)? For them to confess their sins and resign? For supporters to hold some kind of "court proceedings" where accuser and defendants can plead their cases? And who would be the accuser? Or would you simply like to see your own personal prejudices fulfilled, regardless? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Because people who made the decisions are still involved in running the Club yes its “ tedious” but at some point there will be “ other “ decisions - so the previous “ decisions” should be called out but I will leave it for others to decide on the merits Hypothetical question but in your opinion had we caused an upset at Ibrox do you still think the sacking would have happened that night, in morning or not at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Jaggernaut said: So, for the nth time you say that "people who made the decisions" should be nowhere near the club. What, exactly, do you want to see take place? A "cunning plan" hatched to get them out now, regardless of any cost (as if two wrongs make a right)? For them to confess their sins and resign? For supporters to hold some kind of "court proceedings" where accuser and defendants can plead their cases? And who would be the accuser? Or would you simply like to see your own personal prejudices fulfilled, regardless? Ok - all valid point and I will try and explain my reasoning ( at the risk of boring people to death ) but I think its important for the Club going forwards- and who is making the decisions In January it was starting to become clear there was a significant Cash Shortfall to get us to the end of the Season - when I heard about it -I assumed we would start cutting Non Football Costs to slow down the Cash Burn - nothing happened - we then got Rangers in the Cup ( bought us some time ) but that wasn't planned - plus we have to get to the end of the Season- and we still have significant cash issues ( I know this because numerous people - including myself were approached to put money in ) - so then - a point of Play Off Spot we sack the Manager - strange actions for a Club in Financial trouble - rather wait to the Monday they rush back from Ibrox to do so OK so couple of scenarios and you can make your own mind up What happens if they simply didn't like McCall - Fans on FB Pages - Forums - Mates in Munns dont like him also - just didn't see eye to eye with him- - would that justify his sacking ( given we have serious financial issues ) ? What happens if the rush to sack him was to suit someones Holiday Plans- or simply to get him out the door asap - would that justify doing it straight after the Rangers Game ? And for the avoidance of doubt - these are scenarios- so Im not saying they actually happened So we now have St Dools - moving towards Fan Ownership - chasing Promotion - everything is wonderful But that pesky cashflow thing is still there - you have reached out to numerous people to put in Cash OK - what happens if your former Manager is now part of a Conglomerate of Thistle Fans & Sponsors who are looking to put in £600-£800K- but part of the deal is he comes back as Director of Football - the Conglomerate wants changes - Board Nominees - Security - Finances run tighter etc etc ( all normal investment things ) - there may be changes on who sits on the Board - what do you do ? You have just turfed the guy out the door - he is looking to come back- and there is serious Money involved ? Anyway - they are all interesting Hypothetical Scenarios The Fans now own the Club - they decide who the Directors are and judge at the AGM if they get to continue Nothing at Thistle is ever straightforward - my concern with Fan Ownership was always ( and still is ) that we turn into a Bowling Club with Multi Agendas and Power Bases- and influences and we dont run the place like a Business - time will tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 hour ago, elevenone said: Hypothetical question but in your opinion had we caused an upset at Ibrox do you still think the sacking would have happened that night, in morning or not at all? Yes- I think he would have been fired no matter what Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Yes- I think he would have been fired no matter what that same night though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 minute ago, elevenone said: that same night though? Yes - I think they wanted him out the Door and they had drawn up there Plan & Timescales and it was getting done - no matter what Lets put it this way - you have no Plan B for a Manager - things are not great ( but not a disaster ) but you play really well - norm is to delay things - see if you get a lift the next game - that would be the norm at most Clubs But for some strange reason not Thistle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 16 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Yes- I think he would have been fired no matter what Because presumably he was associated with the previous regime and it looks like everyone associated with that regime is being pushed out, including the original directors of PTFC Trust. Isn’t that what you want ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Lenziejag said: Because presumably he was associated with the previous regime and it looks like everyone associated with that regime is being pushed out, including the original directors of PTFC Trust. Isn’t that what you want ? Those making the decision were all PTFC Trust Directors ( and one from the Jlo Board ) ? So I dont think it was because he was part of the Previous Regime ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Yes - I think they wanted him out the Door and they had drawn up there Plan & Timescales and it was getting done - no matter what Lets put it this way - you have no Plan B for a Manager - things are not great ( but not a disaster ) but you play really well - norm is to delay things - see if you get a lift the next game - that would be the norm at most Clubs But for some strange reason not Thistle I wanted McCall gone irrespective of Rangers result (which on paper was a formality although maybe did not play out as many thought) as imo tools were downed by players in Cove/Hamilton Firhill week however I think had we caused a cup upset it would have taken a real brassneck to have sacked him that same night (as that would probs have made UK sports news and not just Scottish) I personally think he would have been given some more games. But as i say all hypothetical now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, elevenone said: I wanted McCall gone irrespective of Rangers result (which on paper was a formality although maybe did not play out as many thought) as imo tools were downed by players in Cove/Hamilton Firhill week however I think had we caused a cup upset it would have taken a real brassneck to have sacked him that same night (as that would probs have made UK sports news and not just Scottish) I personally think he would have been given some more games. But as i say all hypothetical now. They were desperate to get rid of him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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