Hearts Viaplay Cup - Sunday 20 August

[scotty]

6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

My argument is that why given the very very serious issue we faced on finances would it be seen as “ important” enough to sit at a Board Meeting - go through the decision to sack the Manager - but ( and this is important) actually go to the bother of planning the rushing back from Ibrox to do so - all the time there is a huge thing sitting in the Corner with flashing lights called a £300K shortfall- shouting pick me pick me - Im the key issue 

but nope - instead lets plan our hasty return from Ibrox 

what does that say about the mindset ? 
 

unbelievable 

 

So you know for definate that the haste to give McCall the news of his sacking was pre-planned and deliberate? My first thoughts when I heard the timing was that a journalist had got hold of the news and was planning to publish.

Do you also know that there was no consideration of ways to resolve the budget shortfall which in the eventuality of the cup draw was not needed?

You may not find it unbelievable if you were not so narrow minded about the situation. Unless as I asked, you know for certain.

[Lenziejag]

13 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So your looking down the Barrel of a £600K Black Hole and the strategy is lets see if we get lucky in the Draw ? Why not take all the Money you have in the Bank and bet it on Paddys Boy in the 2:30 at Newmarket - its the same thing !!! 

No it’s not. They didn’t have to put any money on it and only had to wait a couple of weeks to see if we could win a cup tie and get a good draw in the next round. 

[laukat]

The McCall sacking was an interesting one. I thought the timing was off and it was asking a lot of Doolan to step in and make sure we made top 4. Doolan did really well and got us into a position that didn't look likely under McCall.

However at the time it seemed a marginal call on if replacing McCall would get us any higher up the league and you can't really blame the manager for spending on the playing squad if the board sanction it. So I often wondered if there was another reason behind it.

Did the new board realise they needed to cost cut and asked McCall to bin one of his coaching staff to reduce costs and McCall said its all of us or none of us? Did the board take the view that McCall and coaching teams staff were getting paid too much and the sooner they acted the sooner there would be a cost reduction?

Is Doolan and McDonald on significantly less than McCall, Archie and Scally? It was rumoured Kenny Arthur was working his notice at one point, was he actually ending his current contract and coming back on reduced terms?

Maybe there was a financial aspect to removing McCall that wasn't just about how much had been spent on the playing squad or wasn't absolutely related to performances?

[dpj]

9 hours ago, laukat said:

The McCall sacking was an interesting one. I thought the timing was off and it was asking a lot of Doolan to step in and make sure we made top 4. Doolan did really well and got us into a position that didn't look likely under McCall.

However at the time it seemed a marginal call on if replacing McCall would get us any higher up the league and you can't really blame the manager for spending on the playing squad if the board sanction it. So I often wondered if there was another reason behind it.

Did the new board realise they needed to cost cut and asked McCall to bin one of his coaching staff to reduce costs and McCall said its all of us or none of us? Did the board take the view that McCall and coaching teams staff were getting paid too much and the sooner they acted the sooner there would be a cost reduction?

Is Doolan and McDonald on significantly less than McCall, Archie and Scally? It was rumoured Kenny Arthur was working his notice at one point, was he actually ending his current contract and coming back on reduced terms?

Maybe there was a financial aspect to removing McCall that wasn't just about how much had been spent on the playing squad or wasn't absolutely related to performances?

As far as I understand (might have been said at TJF AGM) as they still had to pay notice period for McCall etc and Doolan and McDonald were already on payroll there was no saving or increased cost because of sacking decision in short term at least.

Archie has now found a new job so presumably is no longer working notice period as garden leave so potential saving there now.

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, dpj said:

As far as I understand (might have been said at TJF AGM) as they still had to pay notice period for McCall etc and Doolan and McDonald were already on payroll there was no saving or increased cost because of sacking decision in short term at least.

Archie has now found a new job so presumably is no longer working notice period as garden leave so potential saving there now.

This is correct - McCall and the Coaching Staff were being paid there full Contracts after they were sacked - nor was there any requests to cut the Football overhead - the obvious cuts if your struggling with Finances is Non First Team or Non Football overhead 

So my two questions are thus 

why would a Board make the marginal call on focussing time and energy on sacking the manager rather than dedicate therd time to dealing with the fact we were going bust ? 
 

why would a Board be so obsessed with sacking the manager that they rushed back from the Directors Box at Ibrox to sack him 

So for me it smacks of something beyond Football ( and for the record there was no wrongdoing on anything by McCall )

Your first duty as a Director is H&S your second duty is the Financial stability of the Club

H&S was not an issue - Financial Stability was - but they choose sacking the Manager as a priority and rushed back from Ibrox to so

 

 

[Lenziejag]

9 hours ago, dpj said:

As far as I understand (might have been said at TJF AGM) as they still had to pay notice period for McCall etc and Doolan and McDonald were already on payroll there was no saving or increased cost because of sacking decision in short term at least.

Archie has now found a new job so presumably is no longer working notice period as garden leave so potential saving there now.

The relevant bit of information that we don’t know for certain is what the contracts said regarding termination. Also, the way JJ is putting it is that the ONLY thing that the board were doing or planning to do was sack McCall, which I think highly unlikely. In fact, in one of the periodic videos, one of the Directors said that by the time that the full extent of the situation was made public, after the Ross County game, the situation was stabilised. So whatever actions they had put in place were working.

[Jordanhill Jag]

40 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

The relevant bit of information that we don’t know for certain is what the contracts said regarding termination. Also, the way JJ is putting it is that the ONLY thing that the board were doing or planning to do was sack McCall, which I think highly unlikely. In fact, in one of the periodic videos, one of the Directors said that by the time that the full extent of the situation was made public, after the Ross County game, the situation was stabilised. So whatever actions they had put in place were working.

The Contracts were paid in full 

The situation was “ stabilised “ some time after McCall was sacked from what I can gather couple of Months later - the “ stabilising “ was our current Chairman putting in cash 

At the time of McCall sacking the Club still faced a large shortfall in income to get to the end of the Season 

whatever you think of McCall as a Manager the Directors involved first duty is the Financial Stability of the Club 

There is also a duty to treat people with dignity - the “Ibrox Rush” has serious questions to be answered 

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The Contracts were paid in full 

The situation was “ stabilised “ some time after McCall was sacked from what I can gather couple of Months later - the “ stabilising “ was our current Chairman putting in cash 

At the time of McCall sacking the Club still faced a large shortfall in income to get to the end of the Season 

whatever you think of McCall as a Manager the Directors involved first duty is the Financial Stability of the Club 

There is also a duty to treat people with dignity - the “Ibrox Rush” has serious questions to be answered 

You keep saying the same things without providing the evidence. It doesn’t matter when the situation was stabilised, the actions that the board took stabilised it and if that took the chairman inputting cash, so be it - that’s what you expect in times of need ! 

You are right people are entitled to be treated with dignity and everyone has questioned the timing of the announcement. 

Wouldn’t the world be perfect if everybody treated everyone else with respect.

[laukat]

2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The Contracts were paid in full 

The situation was “ stabilised “ some time after McCall was sacked from what I can gather couple of Months later - the “ stabilising “ was our current Chairman putting in cash 

At the time of McCall sacking the Club still faced a large shortfall in income to get to the end of the Season 

whatever you think of McCall as a Manager the Directors involved first duty is the Financial Stability of the Club 

There is also a duty to treat people with dignity - the “Ibrox Rush” has serious questions to be answered 

I presume you have a very good source on that bit? I'd assumed McCall and Scally were still on gardening leave and hoped Archie was now off the books now he has a new job

As you perhaps have some inside information do you know if McCall was told the reason for his sacking and if that was purely poor results or was he asked to reduce costs by getting rid of Archie, Scally or Arthur?

[Jordanhill Jag]

21 minutes ago, laukat said:

I presume you have a very good source on that bit? I'd assumed McCall and Scally were still on gardening leave and hoped Archie was now off the books now he has a new job

As you perhaps have some inside information do you know if McCall was told the reason for his sacking and if that was purely poor results or was he asked to reduce costs by getting rid of Archie, Scally or Arthur?

Yes - I have good sources 

From what Im told it was purely Football - not finances - Manager and Coaches continued to be paid - however if this was the case to do this a point outside the Play off spot is shall we say “ strange” 

To do this whilst your facing the very real possibility of going bust - is frankly ridiculous

To then actually take time and effort to rush back from the Rangers Directors Box to spring the “ Cunning Plan” that had been previously decided leaves huge question marks

Sacking a Manager - decision was strange - but it happens

However doing this whilst not focussing on finances - taking time to plan the “ Ibrox Rush” - there resignation offences in my opinion - simple as that 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Jordanhill Jag

[Jordanhill Jag]

57 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

You keep saying the same things without providing the evidence. It doesn’t matter when the situation was stabilised, the actions that the board took stabilised it and if that took the chairman inputting cash, so be it - that’s what you expect in times of need ! 

You are right people are entitled to be treated with dignity and everyone has questioned the timing of the announcement. 

Wouldn’t the world be perfect if everybody treated everyone else with respect.

At the time of the Sacking - the Finances were not “ stabilised “ which is the key point - if for actions to stabilise you mean going round with the begging bowl to try and get someone to bail you out - maybe we should look to get better people if thats the best they could do to stop us going bust

They must have been feeling very smart sitting in the Rangers Directors Box - all waiting to rush back to spring there

“ Cunning Plan” 

but the solution to the Finances ? Was the equivalent of asking outside Central Station for 10p for a Cup of Tea 

So as there seems to be no logical reason ( nor has anyone provided one that Im aware of ) to rushing back from Ibrox to sack the Manager rather than wait until the Monday Morning then its reasonable to question the motives for such actions 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Jordanhill Jag

[jaggy]

Dear Admins. Please close this tedious thread that none of us know the answers too. I don’t know how many times the ‘Ibrox rush’ has been mentioned, now have ‘cunning plan’

[Jimbo]

15 minutes ago, jaggy said:

Dear Admins. Please close this tedious thread that none of us know the answers too. I don’t know how many times the ‘Ibrox rush’ has been mentioned, now have ‘cunning plan’

Hear hear. Why this has been resurrected is  beyond me. Let it go guys.

[Jordanhill Jag]

16 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

Hear hear. Why this has been resurrected is  beyond me. Let it go guys.

Because people who made the decisions are still involved in running the Club 

yes its “ tedious” but at some point there will be “ other “ decisions - so the previous “ decisions” should be called out 

but I will leave it for others to decide on the merits 

 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Because people who made the decisions are still involved in running the Club 

yes its “ tedious” but at some point there will be “ other “ decisions - so the previous “ decisions” should be called out 

but I will leave it for others to decide on the merits 

Maybe it's just me but I don't get the connection between McCall's sacking and a League Cup game at Tynecastle.

[Jaggernaut]

6 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Because people who made the decisions are still involved in running the Club 

yes its “ tedious” but at some point there will be “ other “ decisions - so the previous “ decisions” should be called out 

but I will leave it for others to decide on the merits 

 

So, for the nth time you say that "people who made the decisions" should be nowhere near the club.

What, exactly, do you want to see take place? A "cunning plan" hatched to get them out now, regardless of any cost (as if two wrongs make a right)? For them to confess their sins and resign? For supporters to hold some kind of "court proceedings" where accuser and defendants can plead their cases? And who would be the accuser? Or would you simply like to see your own personal prejudices fulfilled, regardless? 

[elevenone]

2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Because people who made the decisions are still involved in running the Club 

yes its “ tedious” but at some point there will be “ other “ decisions - so the previous “ decisions” should be called out 

but I will leave it for others to decide on the merits 

 

Hypothetical question but in your opinion had we caused an upset at Ibrox do you still think the sacking would have happened that night, in morning or not at all?

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, Jaggernaut said:

So, for the nth time you say that "people who made the decisions" should be nowhere near the club.

What, exactly, do you want to see take place? A "cunning plan" hatched to get them out now, regardless of any cost (as if two wrongs make a right)? For them to confess their sins and resign? For supporters to hold some kind of "court proceedings" where accuser and defendants can plead their cases? And who would be the accuser? Or would you simply like to see your own personal prejudices fulfilled, regardless? 

Ok - all valid point and I will try and explain my reasoning ( at the risk of boring people to death ) but I think its important for the Club going forwards-  and who is making the decisions 

In January it was starting to become clear there was a significant Cash Shortfall to get us to the end of the Season - when I heard about it -I assumed we would start cutting Non Football Costs to slow down the Cash Burn - nothing happened - we then got Rangers in the Cup ( bought us some time ) but that wasn't planned - plus we have to get to the end of the Season-  and we still have significant cash issues ( I know this because numerous people - including myself were approached to put money in ) - so then - a point of Play Off Spot we sack the Manager - strange actions for a Club in Financial trouble - rather wait to the Monday they rush back from Ibrox to do so 

OK so couple of scenarios and you can make your own mind up 

What happens if they simply didn't like McCall - Fans on FB Pages - Forums - Mates in Munns dont like him also  - just didn't see eye to eye with him- - would that justify his sacking ( given we have serious financial issues ) ?

What happens if the rush to sack him was to suit someones Holiday Plans- or simply to get him out the door asap  - would that justify doing it straight after the Rangers Game ? 

And for the avoidance of doubt - these are scenarios-  so Im not saying they actually happened 

So we now have St Dools - moving towards Fan Ownership - chasing Promotion - everything is wonderful 

But that pesky cashflow thing is still there - you have reached out to numerous people to put in Cash 

OK - what happens if your former Manager is now part of a Conglomerate of Thistle Fans & Sponsors  who are looking to put in £600-£800K-  but part of the deal is he comes back as Director of Football - the Conglomerate wants changes - Board Nominees -  Security - Finances run tighter etc etc ( all normal investment things ) - there may be changes on who sits on the Board - what do you do ? 

You have just turfed the guy out the door - he is looking to come back-  and there is serious Money involved ? 

Anyway - they are all interesting Hypothetical Scenarios 

The Fans now own the Club - they decide who the Directors are and judge at the AGM if they get to continue  

Nothing at Thistle is ever straightforward - my concern with Fan Ownership was always ( and still is ) that we turn into a Bowling Club with Multi Agendas and Power Bases- and influences and we dont run the place like a Business  - time will tell 

 

    

  

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, elevenone said:

Hypothetical question but in your opinion had we caused an upset at Ibrox do you still think the sacking would have happened that night, in morning or not at all?

Yes-  I think he would have been fired no matter what 

[elevenone]

10 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes-  I think he would have been fired no matter what 

that same night though?

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, elevenone said:

that same night though?

Yes - I think they wanted him out the Door and they had drawn up there Plan & Timescales and it was getting done - no matter what 

Lets put it this way - you have no Plan B for a Manager - things are not great ( but not a disaster ) but you play really well - norm is to delay things - see if you get a lift the next game - that would be the norm at most Clubs 

But for some strange reason not Thistle    

 

[Lenziejag]

16 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes-  I think he would have been fired no matter what 

Because presumably he was associated with the previous regime and it looks like everyone associated with that regime is being pushed out, including the original directors of PTFC Trust. Isn’t that what you want ?

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, Lenziejag said:

Because presumably he was associated with the previous regime and it looks like everyone associated with that regime is being pushed out, including the original directors of PTFC Trust. Isn’t that what you want ?

Those making the decision were all PTFC Trust Directors ( and one from the Jlo Board ) ? 

So I dont think it was because he was part of the Previous Regime ? 

 

[elevenone]

8 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes - I think they wanted him out the Door and they had drawn up there Plan & Timescales and it was getting done - no matter what 

Lets put it this way - you have no Plan B for a Manager - things are not great ( but not a disaster ) but you play really well - norm is to delay things - see if you get a lift the next game - that would be the norm at most Clubs 

But for some strange reason not Thistle    

 

I wanted McCall gone irrespective of Rangers result (which on paper was a formality although maybe did not play out as many thought) as imo tools were downed by players in Cove/Hamilton Firhill week however I think had we caused a cup upset it would have taken a real brassneck to have sacked him that same night (as that would probs have made UK sports news and not just Scottish) I personally think he would have been given some more games.  But as i say all hypothetical now.

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 minutes ago, elevenone said:

I wanted McCall gone irrespective of Rangers result (which on paper was a formality although maybe did not play out as many thought) as imo tools were downed by players in Cove/Hamilton Firhill week however I think had we caused a cup upset it would have taken a real brassneck to have sacked him that same night (as that would probs have made UK sports news and not just Scottish) I personally think he would have been given some more games.  But as i say all hypothetical now.

They were desperate to get rid of him