elevenone Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 email this morn. TJF Update - 13th April Dear John, Firstly, can we just thank you for all the support we have received in light of Saturdays announcement from 3BC and the PTFC Board/CEO. Along with that support, there are the obvious calls for what next? What we are not going to do is get involved in a tit for tat spat with the club at such an important point in the season as that helps no-one. TJF are not just the directors who have been handling these discussions and the direct interface to 3BC and PTFC. TJF is a democratically constructed organisation with 456 members. We are very proud to represent you and of the fact that we have collectively managed to galvanise the support and to build the organisation up, securing its own funding with very little support from the club itself. We still believe that we are the only entity in existence that is in a position to take ownership of Colin Weir’s legacy gift to the fans and deliver true fan ownership along the same principles as apply to other fan-owned clubs like Motherwell, Hearts, St Mirren and many others. If the clash of personalities between the current directors of TJF and 3BC/PTFC board are as insurmountable as they appear to be then we have no hesitation in standing down and for our positions to be filled by other members. Consequently, we will conduct a ballot of members to elect a new board. We still stand aside on completion of that process. This is your organisation. This is your club. However, we are playing with 3BC's ball. We will send out further information in the very near future with details about how nominations can be submitted to take part in this election. We estimate it will take about six weeks between calling for nominations and being able to declare a result. The board has already selected an online provider of balloting services which shall be used for this election. We are also taking steps to pause subscription payments in the meantime. A further communication will be sent once this has been done. This will allow the new board to be elected, and for them to share their vision of progressing the case for real fan ownership. Thank you for all your support. The Board of TJF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 2 hours ago, javeajag said: Quite a few people here have pointed to a lack of enthusiasm for fan ownership …I don’t think that’s a very controversial view …. The fact that TJF has 456 members is a good indication in itself. and clearly the alternative to fan ownership at the moment is what we have now with no change if your are going to insist on due diligence then that means fan ownership is conditional on what DD reveals and that TJF could walk away as a result. Because if it’s not conditional then it doesn’t really matter when DD is done that again would leave the status quo Fan ownership is not in anyway conditional on what DD finds, but DD allows for us as fans to go into it with eyes open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 55 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: Fan ownership is not in anyway conditional on what DD finds, but DD allows for us as fans to go into it with eyes open Personally DD the day after you get the shares is fine by me …..at least it gets it done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 3 hours ago, javeajag said: Personally DD the day after you get the shares is fine by me …..at least it gets it done I don't think you understand what due diligence is if you think it's something you do on a company you've just taken control of. The whole point of it is to identify risks and ambiguities before someone else relinquishes legal liability for the decisions they have taken on the Club's behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 13 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: I don't think you understand what due diligence is if you think it's something you do on a company you've just taken control of. The whole point of it is to identify risks and ambiguities before someone else relinquishes legal liability for the decisions they have taken on the Club's behalf. Thanks for the insight but since I’ve undertaken a lot of DD exercises I think I know why you do them, how you do them , what your looking for and the potential outcomes. the outcomes are usually some warranties , adjustments , conditions , price reductions etc etc and ultimately you can walk away and not complete the deal. in our circumstance the first four don’t really apply as we are being gifted the club so if you are not going to walk away then to me it’s pretty irrelevant when the DD or information gathering is done because even if you find bad stuff you are still going to take over the club unless the outcome of a DD is a condition of the share transfer. Which apparently it’s not . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 Holding the line on the DD issue flushed out their real thinking. I think we did the right thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, sandy said: Holding the line on the DD issue flushed out their real thinking. I think we did the right thing. Please share what their real thinking is nit holding the line on DD put them on the spot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 2 hours ago, javeajag said: Thanks for the insight but since I’ve undertaken a lot of DD exercises I think I know why you do them, how you do them , what your looking for and the potential outcomes. the outcomes are usually some warranties , adjustments , conditions , price reductions etc etc and ultimately you can walk away and not complete the deal. in our circumstance the first four don’t really apply as we are being gifted the club so if you are not going to walk away then to me it’s pretty irrelevant when the DD or information gathering is done because even if you find bad stuff you are still going to take over the club unless the outcome of a DD is a condition of the share transfer. Which apparently it’s not . Once more, and with feeling, you don’t know what it means to be “gifted the Club” if you don’t know what skeletons are in the closet. Indeed it might throw up things that TJF or any other fan ownership vehicle would want to know about before deciding (a) whether to accept the shares and (b) to seek related further undertakings from 3BC about things they may or may not have done. Unless and until the full financial position of the club is set out the people who should be on the hook for its financial position should be the current owners, not a fan based entity. That really isn’t a lot to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 Put another way there are some situations in which a fan-based entity should refuse to accept the 3BC’s shares in the Club. But we can’t rule those situations out unless and until 3BC lets due diligence get properly undertaken, or unless it grants warrandices about the things on which due diligence hasn’t been done and therefore remains on the hook for those things. It isn’t inconsistent to say that on balance you prefer fan ownership to indefinite ownership by 3BC or another willing bidder, but also to say that fan ownership isn’t something that should be signed up to unconditionally. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifexile Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 3 hours ago, javeajag said: Thanks for the insight but since I’ve undertaken a lot of DD exercises I think I know why you do them, how you do them , what your looking for and the potential outcomes. the outcomes are usually some warranties , adjustments , conditions , price reductions etc etc and ultimately you can walk away and not complete the deal. in our circumstance the first four don’t really apply as we are being gifted the club so if you are not going to walk away then to me it’s pretty irrelevant when the DD or information gathering is done because even if you find bad stuff you are still going to take over the club unless the outcome of a DD is a condition of the share transfer. Which apparently it’s not . I freely admit I know only a little of due diligence. If the 'buyer' or in our case recipients receive the shares do we write into the transfer it is conditional on warranties, adjustments etc and how do we ensure 3BC agrees to them? Surely all they need to do is refuse to accept a conditional transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said: Once more, and with feeling, you don’t know what it means to be “gifted the Club” if you don’t know what skeletons are in the closet. Indeed it might throw up things that TJF or any other fan ownership vehicle would want to know about before deciding (a) whether to accept the shares and (b) to seek related further undertakings from 3BC about things they may or may not have done. Unless and until the full financial position of the club is set out the people who should be on the hook for its financial position should be the current owners, not a fan based entity. That really isn’t a lot to ask. As I said DD is of value if taking over the club is conditional ie you would walk away …..if you are taking it no matter what then to me doing the Information gathering on day 1 is fine. also the current directors know the financial position of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, javeajag said: As I said DD is of value if taking over the club is conditional ie you would walk away …..if you are taking it no matter what then to me doing the Information gathering on day 1 is fine. also the current directors know the financial position of the club. But that’s just the point. We shouldn’t do it “no matter what”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 The point is that if DD uncovers a liability of £5m, doing it after you purchase is too late as it is now your liability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 10 minutes ago, javeajag said: As I said DD is of value if taking over the club is conditional ie you would walk away …..if you are taking it no matter what then to me doing the Information gathering on day 1 is fine. also the current directors know the financial position of the club. Just stop. Give yourself a break. TJF can poll the members to see if DD is important to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 17 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: But that’s just the point. We shouldn’t do it “no matter what”. That’s a perfectly legitimate view , others have said it’s not conditional . The reality is that it just shows a lack of trust which might explain why relations have broken down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 15 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: The point is that if DD uncovers a liability of £5m, doing it after you purchase is too late as it is now your liability. Sure…..and that’s important if in finding that £5m you decide to not take over the club …..if your going to take over the club even with that liability then when you find that out isn’t that material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas clark Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 Well, Bowen Boys, I think that everybody in the JTF should take a deep breath before they enter into a deal like that. To be as clear as I can, I want PTFC to be a fan owned club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 25 minutes ago, douglas clark said: Well, Bowen Boys, I think that everybody in the JTF should take a deep breath before they enter into a deal like that. To be as clear as I can, I want PTFC to be a fan owned club. I want PTFC to be a sustainable, successful club. If that can happen with fan ownership, I will be immensely proud to be a part of it. I'm not sure what your first paragraph is referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, javeajag said: Sure…..and that’s important if in finding that £5m you decide to not take over the club …..if your going to take over the club even with that liability then when you find that out isn’t that material. That would be madness to go into a contract with unlimited liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: That would be madness to go into a contract with unlimited liability. It would but that’s not happening here ….let’s be realistic this is PTFC a very small business … we all know the ground is an issue and that’s probably about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted April 14, 2022 Report Share Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, javeajag said: It would but that’s not happening here ….let’s be realistic this is PTFC a very small business … we all know the ground is an issue and that’s probably about it Maybe I am more cautious, but I never like to see "probably" in a business document. If you don't check, it is probably going to be the opposite of what it "probably" was supposed to be. For me we need to be absolutely clear on what we are getting into, especially in terms of current liabilities as we won't have any directors with deep pockets to bail us out if we get into trouble. Edit to add: I am generally in favour of fan ownership, providing the model is right and that we know what we are getting into. Edited April 14, 2022 by Dick Dastardly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted April 14, 2022 Report Share Posted April 14, 2022 Surely, if TJF hadn't asked for DD they would have been less "fit and proper" to take on the shares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted April 14, 2022 Report Share Posted April 14, 2022 Even Dave King managed to pass the fit and proper test??!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a f kincaid Posted April 14, 2022 Report Share Posted April 14, 2022 "Trust went completely after TJF failed to share important information with fans as we asked them to after we chose to make it available to them for that sole purpose". Sorry if I've missed the answer to this but a) what was the information and b) is the assertion that the TJF failed to share it correct and, if so, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted April 14, 2022 Report Share Posted April 14, 2022 52 minutes ago, a f kincaid said: "Trust went completely after TJF failed to share important information with fans as we asked them to after we chose to make it available to them for that sole purpose". Sorry if I've missed the answer to this but a) what was the information and b) is the assertion that the TJF failed to share it correct and, if so, why? and c) if it is important information for the fans, why doesn't J Low FC share it with us now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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