This does my head in.....

[Jaggernaut]

Thistle midfield is in possession and moving forward (usually at quite a leisurely pace). Depending on the side of the field, the Thistle winger runs back (not forward) to around the half-way line, and waits for a pass from the midfielder. Of course a defender or midfielder of the other team has tracked him. Our midfielder passes to our winger, who can do f*** all with the ball because he's now standing still and somebody is right on him; almost no chance of getting past him. (So why did he come back to get himself in that position in the first place????). So, he passes it back to the midfielder (who now also has somebody on him) or else to one of our full-backs who has arrived on the scene. There then ensues a series of short triangular passes between these three Jags players which, if we somehow manage to retain the ball, does not move us one inch nearer to the opposition goal. At best, what we hope for is to keep possession by passing back (to a central defender, or even the goalie), or across the field to another player in space. By then, of course, the entire opposition is back in their own half, and so the player with the ball now has no real option because any Jags player in front of him (and a few will still be hanging around the half-way line) is just standing around, waiting for something to happen; there is little movement into spaces, inviting a fast through ball (rather than a punt).. Result: a speculative punt upfield or, even more frustratingly, more sideways passing. And as soon as an opposition player approaches, our player"s default reaction is to check back, and think about passing back to the keeper. It's frankly depressing to watch, as it's so predictable.

Honestly, I don't remember McQuade, or Lawrie, or Houston thinking that they had to run back to the halfway line and stand still to receive a 3-yard pass, which is then usually followed by the passer running two yards toward him to receive a pass back again....  To do what? That's the question I find myself asking with every game these days..... and it goes back over maybe a 15- or even 20-year period.

I watched the highlights of the auld f*lth game at the weekend, and grudgingly I've got to say that the pace and directness of the Porkheid bunch were really impressive to watch. Literally a league ahead of what we see every week. And in fact it got me thinking of the 3-2 game against the h* ns in 1971, where there was no such pedestrian nonsense going on. (Take a look too at the LC Final, none of this tight triangular passing on the half-way line stuff.) What happened, to make this an accepted change to the game? I could understand it if you're running down the clock, but we see this gunk right from the start of games.

Acknowledgement: Thank you to some cheap imported wine from Chile.

[dl1971]

It's called evolution. Every top league team or national team, plays the same way. Blame Cruyff, Gardiola etc. FTR I've seen thistle play some fabulous football the last few seasons. And I remember with fondness our 1970s team, but things move on. 

[eljaggo]

Agree entirely with Jaggernaut.  I could add that for 95% of the time players are facing towards their own goal when they receive a pass, which in itself slows things down.  The root causes are a lack of confidence and the avoidance of risk.  It may be unfair to single out a player, but Bannigan is a master of the unambitious pass, and having passed it trots off contentedly with no urgency.

[robphil]

It's when you watch the 1971 LC final you realise just how good we really were - fast and always with a purpose. Like everyone on here, do wish our 3-2 triumph  over someone or other in the first game of the season at a sun dappled firhill was available on film to enjoy again... and again...and again...and....

Edited September 5 by robphil
Misspell

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, eljaggo said:

Agree entirely with Jaggernaut.  I could add that for 95% of the time players are facing towards their own goal when they receive a pass, which in itself slows things down.  The root causes are a lack of confidence and the avoidance of risk.  It may be unfair to single out a player, but Bannigan is a master of the unambitious pass, and having passed it trots off contentedly with no urgency.

Bannigan got in the SPFL team of the week this week. 

[SteppsJag]

Agree with Lenziejag re the lack of confidence & avoidance of risk. What really does my head in is the apparent lack of awareness of what’s round about them when receiving a pass while facing their own goal. On many occasions they have no opposition players near them but instead of turning and assessing the options in front of them they just play the ball straight back to the defender. We then usually end up with an aimless punt up the park.  

[Jaggernaut]

21 hours ago, dl1971 said:

It's called evolution. Every top league team or national team, plays the same way. Blame Cruyff, Gardiola etc. FTR I've seen thistle play some fabulous football the last few seasons. And I remember with fondness our 1970s team, but things move on. 

Maybe we can look forward to that advanced evolutionary stage when players won't run at all.....

[BowenBoys]

12 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

Maybe we can look forward to that advanced evolutionary stage when players won't run at all.....

[MarciaBlaine]

I don't think it's just our level - I was saying much the same when the Euros were on. So many teams playing dull pedestrian football, passing it along the back line or into a holding midfielder and back again to a defender.

I often people compliment a "well-coached" side, but in my experience a well-coached side is one with no imagination, flair or individual responsibility given to players. Repetitive drills are taught by rote like everything's a mini set piece.

It's also a symptom of the influence of TV and the 'basketball-isation' of football. You get one team patiently building up for ages in a boring way, leading (sometimes) to ten seconds of interest, just enough to make the highlights reel later that night.

[dl1971]

7 hours ago, Jaggernaut said:

Maybe we can look forward to that advanced evolutionary stage when players won't run at all.....

It's here already....walking football as beautifully portrayed by still game. 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

One of the greatest games of the 1990s wasn't exactly played at electric pace. https://posttopost.sport.blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/image-13.png  

[Fearchar]

Among other costs to this style of play is the loss of players' ability to turn with the ball: when in possession, a player fears the opposition approaching from behind and passes the ball back. It leads to a kind of ratchet, where going forward becomes more difficult, even for players in possession who (of course) have the opportunity to dictate play, since other players in their team just wait for the pass back.

A mention (from MarciaBlaine) of the Euros brings a thought to mind: despite Guardiola's preference for shots on goal only to be taken within the penalty box, the media have pointed out that most goals in the competition were scored from outside the box. Perhaps the gurus of our own day just aren't in tune with what is most effective. While they can depend on being able to sign outstanding forward players, perhaps other managers should not seek to emulate them but to work to a different template that uses teams' resources more effectively.

[Derby Jag]

Has anyone actually watched football being played in the past decade? The current Thistle team would beat the 71 team by a very comfortable margin. Nostalgia is great and they were a wonderful team but if you don't believe players are at a completely different level these days then you need your head examined.

Also the stat presented as fact earlier is frankly nonsense. 98 were scored in the box and 19 outside.

The negative sentiment around modern football "gurus" etc is frankly keeping Scottish football back. See the fact that our teams continuously get beaten by lower ranked nations' clubs in Europe. Any young player would be off their rocker to stay in Scotland if they had the opportunity to play in England, Spain, Germany etc.

 

 

Edited September 7 by Derby Jag

[Jaggernaut]

7 hours ago, Derby Jag said:

Has anyone actually watched football being played in the past decade? The current Thistle team would beat the 71 team by a very comfortable margin.

No they would not. Did you see the 71 team play? If you did, I cannot fathom why you think our current pedestrian 2nd-tier team would beat them. 

Nostalgia is great and they were a wonderful team but if you don't believe players are at a completely different level these days then you need your head examined.

In the words of Pontius Pilate in The Life of Bwian: Well you sound vewy sure.

Also the stat presented as fact earlier is frankly nonsense. 98 were scored in the box and 19 outside.

The negative sentiment around modern football "gurus" etc is frankly keeping Scottish football back. See the fact that our teams continuously get beaten by lower ranked nations' clubs in Europe. Any young player would be off their rocker to stay in Scotland if they had the opportunity to play in England, Spain, Germany etc.

I think the Scottish game's problems stem from several things other than people's attitude to modern gurus, whoever those might be.

 

 

 

[Jaggernaut]

Our highly evolved style of play, which consists mostly of useless passing sideways or backwards when there is no need to pass, and thinking that it's alright just to walk with the ball rather than to advance at speed, came up against a few problems today. I pity the Jags supporters who spent their time and money to watch that. I'm thoroughly regretting my decision to pay to watch the live stream.

[Derby Jag]

A completely pointless argument but in the 1970s players ran on average 4 km a match versus 11 km now. The pace of play was considerably slower. It's practically a different sport. 

 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, Jaggernaut said:

Our highly evolved style of play, which consists mostly of useless passing sideways or backwards when there is no need to pass, and thinking that it's alright just to walk with the ball rather than to advance at speed, came up against a few problems today. I pity the Jags supporters who spent their time and money to watch that. I'm thoroughly regretting my decision to pay to watch the live stream.

This is possibly where watching a game at the ground differs from watching on TV/Stream. In fact as the camera basically follows the ball around, it has to differ. I reckon today 90% of the cross field and pass back stuff was justified. The total lack of movement ahead of the defence (off screen) was appalling. So often there was no out ball.  On occasion when the ball was played thru midfield or played forward to wide areas Alloa were inevitably first to the ball. The lack of movement that would be picked up on screen would be evident from our woeful throw ins.

Edited September 7 by lady-isobel-barnett

[Fawlty Towers]

Feel free to laugh until your sides burst but at this level getting the ball out wide then put in with a bit of quality between the goalline and penalty spot often enough should result in goals and we will all applaud a goal which sees the keeper kick it long, a flick on and a shot from the edge of the box as much as one with 25 passes before it goes in.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Winning-Formula-Soccer-Skills-Tactics/dp/0001911600/ref=sr_1_2?crid=9AYPDYJSLPLX&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yhqlAxn0Um1gxaJYIVClEMTW0UWJIonCPpKBhGA0riW8WrL59VkLHw2Ow0fZg8Z1FSsgeKEGdHM6WpBx_IVrRVzG2WeugN0NmZmQedCjuiM.UiXnfF7JadmNH65b-GUPWVvhhuCZsXWiog_fNC7REt4&dib_tag=se&keywords=charles+hughes+soccer+tactics&qid=1725733070&sprefix=chrles+hughes%2Caps%2C73&sr=8-2

[Fearchar]

19 hours ago, Derby Jag said:

Has anyone actually watched football being played in the past decade? The current Thistle team would beat the 71 team by a very comfortable margin. Nostalgia is great and they were a wonderful team but if you don't believe players are at a completely different level these days then you need your head examined.

Also the stat presented as fact earlier is frankly nonsense. 98 were scored in the box and 19 outside.

The negative sentiment around modern football "gurus" etc is frankly keeping Scottish football back. See the fact that our teams continuously get beaten by lower ranked nations' clubs in Europe. Any young player would be off their rocker to stay in Scotland if they had the opportunity to play in England, Spain, Germany etc.

 

 

Getting to the more competitive leagues outside Scotland should be the aim of aspiring young professional players here. (England's slim range of wealthy clubs hardly counts as much better than the situation here.) After all, if Girona in Spain and Bayer Leverkusen in Germany can rise to the top, those leagues are surely more competitive. As for styles of football, well, Luis de la Fuente isn't exactly innovative. Spain won every match in the Euros while playing old-fashioned wingers.

You are right: that "most goals" should have been "more goals" - I was recalling a German article that cast doubt on the likes of Guardiola. After all, Xavi has broken the mould in the Bundesliga - much as we had hoped Doolan would here. Does approximately 1 in 6 goals scored from outside the box back up Guardiola's preference? IMHO it doesn't.

A few years ago I watched the Scottish Under-17s being beaten by an inferior but more physical team from Norway, simply due to bad coaching. (The coach concerned was retiring: that was his final game.) Whatever the Scottish football authorities think they're doing, their innovations aren't leading to any obvious success.

[Jaggernaut]

16 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

This is possibly where watching a game at the ground differs from watching on TV/Stream. In fact as the camera basically follows the ball around, it has to differ. I reckon today 90% of the cross field and pass back stuff was justified. The total lack of movement ahead of the defence (off screen) was appalling. So often there was no out ball.  On occasion when the ball was played thru midfield or played forward to wide areas Alloa were inevitably first to the ball. The lack of movement that would be picked up on screen would be evident from our woeful throw ins.

That's a good point, LIB: it's impossible to know what's happening (or not happening) well away from the ball on the live stream. But I can certainly imagine a distinct lack of movement of the kind you describe ahead of the ball.. And to some extent that might account for midfielders or defenders with the ball simply walking with it, waiting for a potential pass to become feasible. And if that doesn't happen, well play it safe: hit it 3 yards to the nearest player, or turn back and send the ball backwards. Repeat ad nauseam, even when a goal is urgent.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

4 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

That's a good point, LIB: it's impossible to know what's happening (or not happening) well away from the ball on the live stream. But I can certainly imagine a distinct lack of movement of the kind you describe ahead of the ball.. And to some extent that might account for midfielders or defenders with the ball simply walking with it, waiting for a potential pass to become feasible. And if that doesn't happen, well play it safe: hit it 3 yards to the nearest player, or turn back and send the ball backwards. Repeat ad nauseam, even when a goal is urgent.

True.

On the subject of lack of movement but this time something you will pick up on viewing on screen That's the standard of our throw ins, which is dreadful. Even if he' not in the vicinity we regularly wait for the fullback to trot up to take the shy. That suggests we've a well drilled routine to get the most out of the throw in. Maybe a few surprises even. Quite the opposite. There's as often as not only one recipient, the blatantly obvious player at that. No real movement, dummy runs etc.   

Said often enough we lack ball winners. The best way to counter that is by having the lion's share of possession. Certainly not giving the ball away cheaply as soon as you've got it. Our throw ins just typify that failing.

[scotty]

28 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

True.

On the subject of lack of movement but this time something you will pick up on viewing on screen That's the standard of our throw ins, which is dreadful. Even if he' not in the vicinity we regularly wait for the fullback to trot up to take the shy. That suggests we've a well drilled routine to get the most out of the throw in. Maybe a few surprises even. Quite the opposite. There's as often as not only one recipient, the blatantly obvious player at that. No real movement, dummy runs etc.   

Said often enough we lack ball winners. The best way to counter that is by having the lion's share of possession. Certainly not giving the ball away cheaply as soon as you've got it. Our throw ins just typify that failing.

This also goes when kicking or playing out from the back. Outfielders seem to be waiting to see where the ball is going to go before  moving and keeper/defenders wait to see where outfielders are going to stand. Gives the opposition time to close down / cut off space.

[jagfox]

2 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

True.

On the subject of lack of movement but this time something you will pick up on viewing on screen That's the standard of our throw ins, which is dreadful. Even if he' not in the vicinity we regularly wait for the fullback to trot up to take the shy. That suggests we've a well drilled routine to get the most out of the throw in. Maybe a few surprises even. Quite the opposite. There's as often as not only one recipient, the blatantly obvious player at that. No real movement, dummy runs etc.   

Said often enough we lack ball winners. The best way to counter that is by having the lion's share of possession. Certainly not giving the ball away cheaply as soon as you've got it. Our throw ins just typify that failing.

Manchester City have apparently not lost possession from one of their throw-ins this season. They've taken 49 just to out in context. There was an article in The Athletic about it.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5746857/2024/09/06/manchester-city-49-successful-throwins?source=user-shared-article

I read The Athletic to keep up with my favourite teams. Here's a guest pass so you can check it out for 30 days for free:
https://nytimes.com/athletic/guest-pass/?access_code=5fcvimbl8p

[jagfox]

2 hours ago, scotty said:

This also goes when kicking or playing out from the back. Outfielders seem to be waiting to see where the ball is going to go before  moving and keeper/defenders wait to see where outfielders are going to stand. Gives the opposition time to close down / cut off space.

Ayr, this is only any use if players are finding space in positions an accurate can find them then progress play from there. Just isn't happening at the moment. I'm not sure at what point Myles scrubbed it and just started punting it. Probably when we ended up with a totally ineffectual 4-4-2?