Partick Thistle 🟡🔴 Vs Dunfermline Athletic ⚪️⚫️

[Norgethistle]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Well - Welshy will obviously repeat what he was told to 

However - Im told we are cutting squad costs as quickly as possible -to try and stem the losses -and offloading any wage we can 

So lets face it neither of us know 100% if it was Watford who wanted him back - or Thistle looking for an opportunity to offload wages and not pushing to keep him ( if he goes to Ross County -Im siding with the latter) 

The info on our Financial State and the reasons for it - changes with every Q&A and every Financial Statement 

We are told whichever version the Board want us to hear - so I take anything said by the Club with a large pinch of Salt 

TJF are not the arbiter of all information from the Club 

He’s went into the Watford 1st team squad. 
Watford recalled him the club has also stated this and has the manager.

 Club Twitter stated both, and club commercial manager (Welshy) stated it in hospitality. Absolutely nothing to do with TJF, the comms or the recall, but that doesn’t suit your narrative. 

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

He’s went into the Watford 1st team squad. 
Watford recalled him the club has also stated this and has the manager.

 Club Twitter stated both, and club commercial manager (Welshy) stated it in hospitality. Absolutely nothing to do with TJF, the comms or the recall, but that doesn’t suit your narrative. 

I never said TJF had anything to do with the Comms - I said TJF are not the arbiter of all information coming from PTFC or its veracity - Welshy and any Club Employee will put out what they are told 

We are not party to discussions regards if we could continue to afford him - if we couldn't Watford -would have recalled him 

So my statement is as valid as yours - the Club have had plenty of instances where they put out statements that might not be all they seem to be -and miss out key bits of info or change stories 

If he goes on loan elsewhere then it will be interesting - lets see who else goes off the wage bill before making judgement shall we ? 

[Jag]

13 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

He’s went into the Watford 1st team squad. 
Watford recalled him the club has also stated this and has the manager.

 Club Twitter stated both, and club commercial manager (Welshy) stated it in hospitality. Absolutely nothing to do with TJF, the comms or the recall, but that doesn’t suit your narrative. 

The reason Roberts has gone back to Watford is their first choice keeper picked up a bad injury on Saturday. They had the switch of loan to Ross County set up before this and the injury meant they recalled him South.

Whether it was Thistle wanting to cut costs or not is another matter but the only reason he is at Watford now instead of Ross County is because of the injury to Daniel Bachmann.

It doesn't actually make any sense to me that it would be Thistle's idea, as we had one keeper out on loan and have just released Mason McCready. I get the necessity of cost cutting but this would be shooting ourselves in the foot. 

[Jag]

3 hours ago, Cork Jag said:

How people can watch that every week with any faith,  belief or enjoyment I don't know & I applaud you all for your resilience.

Seemingly an unbeaten run and some nice stats makes it more pleasing on the eye.

[jlsarmy]

17 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

The position we are in under Doolan currently is not that different to where we were when McCall was sacked- completely mediocre.

we just got a hammering at the weekend in case you had forgotten. Also been knocked out of cups by lower league teams who we should not be losing too.

Your happy accepting mediocrity as long as it means keeping Doolan

Been watching PTFC for 50 years , I have seen lots of mediocre Thistle teams over the years , playing in the third tier of Scottish Football and struggling big time 

The players you are watching just now may  be off form but they are streets ahead of what I’ve watched in the past .

Re Kris Doolan , he is a work in progress but obviously he wants to learn , that’s why he is attaining all his coaching badges 

Doolan will make mistakes on his journey but if you employ a young rookie manager you’ve got to give him time .

[Third Lanark]

29 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Been watching PTFC for 50 years , I have seen lots of mediocre Thistle teams over the years , playing in the third tier of Scottish Football and struggling big time 

The players you are watching just now may  be off form but they are streets ahead of what I’ve watched in the past .

Re Kris Doolan , he is a work in progress but obviously he wants to learn , that’s why he is attaining all his coaching badges 

Doolan will make mistakes on his journey but if you employ a young rookie manager you’ve got to give him time .

He’s already had time I’m afraid as far as I’m concerned.There’s barely been a decent performance all season even with the games we have won.   
He can’t seem to motivate his players or know what to do despite the financial backing he has got. 

That said everyone is of course entitled to their opinion and I do appreciate you taking the time to provide detailed reasons on your thoughts.  I have also been wrong many times before so hopefully I am wrong again on this one and you are correct.  

Edited Tuesday at 06:28 PM by Third Lanark

[Jordanhill Jag]

5 hours ago, Jag said:

The reason Roberts has gone back to Watford is their first choice keeper picked up a bad injury on Saturday. They had the switch of loan to Ross County set up before this and the injury meant they recalled him South.

Whether it was Thistle wanting to cut costs or not is another matter but the only reason he is at Watford now instead of Ross County is because of the injury to Daniel Bachmann.

It doesn't actually make any sense to me that it would be Thistle's idea, as we had one keeper out on loan and have just released Mason McCready. I get the necessity of cost cutting but this would be shooting ourselves in the foot. 

Point - taken ref injury 

however the fact that he was leaving us to go on loan to Ross County -points in the direction that he was already leaving before the injury at Watford as part of a cost cutting exercise 

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Or could the reason be Ross County who have their own injury problems contacted Watford who in turn wanted him to be tested at a higher level?

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

Or could the reason be Ross County who have their own injury problems contacted Watford who in turn wanted him to be tested at a higher level?

Yes - that is also possible 

However - what we know for certain is that we are having to cut the Player Wage Bill - loan Player who can be offloaded in January is a natural target to cut costs 

[Lenziejag]

12 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

He’s already had time I’m afraid as far as I’m concerned.There’s barely been a decent performance all season even with the games we have won.   
He can’t seem to motivate his players or know what to do despite the financial backing he has got. 

That said everyone is of course entitled to their opinion and I do appreciate you taking the time to provide detailed reasons on your thoughts.  I have also been wrong many times before so hopefully I am wrong again on this one and you are correct.  

If what is being said is true that we are trying to offload players, he isn’t getting the financial backing and if that knowledge has been circulating, then it is no wonder we get performances like Dunfermline.

[Lenziejag]

4 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes - that is also possible 

However - what we know for certain is that we are having to cut the Player Wage Bill - loan Player who can be offloaded in January is a natural target to cut costs 

Getting rid of player who is playing consistently well, instead of two or three who don’t get a sniff of a game seems like a really bad decision to make and I don’t think even you with the low opinion you have of the Thistle board believe they would do that willingly.

[Dick Dastardly]

5 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes - that is also possible 

However - what we know for certain is that we are having to cut the Player Wage Bill - loan Player who can be offloaded in January is a natural target to cut costs 

How do we know that for certain ? Is this yet another fact you have made up to fit your agenda ?

No need to reply. I have again put your tripe on ignore.

[Third Lanark]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

If what is being said is true that we are trying to offload players, he isn’t getting the financial backing and if that knowledge has been circulating, then it is no wonder we get performances like Dunfermline.

By January of his final year in charge McCall wasn’t getting the financial backing either as there was no money- it’s the same scenario.  We are having to offload players in that January and I think only able to bring in mccavoy. But there were no people excusing the dire performances.  And prior to this Doolan was very well backed in the summer as we know, being able to bring in his main targets like Megwa, Chalmers etc 

Also we played Morton and Dunfermline- 2 clubs whose finances are as bad as ours, in fact Morton possibly worse.  Dunfermline don’t even have a manager 

Like McCalls last 2 league games - the last 2 league games under Doolan have been dreadful.  

Like McCalls last season this season under Doolan has been underwhelming.  Anyone who thinks this has been a good season I would love to know why. Of course we are on 4th while we were  5th under McCall though unlike Doolan we were still in a cup (thankfully as it turned out for our dire finances).

Doolan will likely get more time because of his legendary playing status.  
Someone said this season under Doolan has been like night and day compared to under McCall.  I’m making the point it has not been and is in fact very similar to that under McCall.

If the players are willing to play for Doolan I would be hoping for a big reaction this Friday.

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:56 AM by Third Lanark

[Jaggernaut]

16 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Well - Welshy will obviously repeat what he was told to 

However - Im told we are cutting squad costs as quickly as possible -to try and stem the losses -and offloading any wage we can 

So lets face it neither of us know 100% if it was Watford who wanted him back - or Thistle looking for an opportunity to offload wages and not pushing to keep him ( if he goes to Ross County -Im siding with the latter) 

The info on our Financial State and the reasons for it - changes with every Q&A and every Financial Statement 

We are told whichever version the Board want us to hear - so I take anything said by the Club with a large pinch of Salt 

TJF are not the arbiter of all information from the Club 

Anybody know of an effective treatment for crimson simianitis?

[a f kincaid]

15 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Been watching PTFC for 50 years , I have seen lots of mediocre Thistle teams over the years , playing in the third tier of Scottish Football and struggling big time 

The players you are watching just now may  be off form but they are streets ahead of what I’ve watched in the past .

Re Kris Doolan , he is a work in progress but obviously he wants to learn , that’s why he is attaining all his coaching badges 

Doolan will make mistakes on his journey but if you employ a young rookie manager you’ve got to give him time .

Hope he attains them. It'll mean he can be the manager when we are playing in Europe.

[Third Lanark]

50 minutes ago, a f kincaid said:

Hope he attains them. It'll mean he can be the manager when we are playing in Europe.

I suppose Berwick Rangers is a trip in Europe 😁

[sandy]

47 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

I suppose Berwick Rangers is a trip in Europe 😁

Better still after Brexit, an away tie with Shamrock Rovers

[laukat]

I sometime wonder about the training on offer to managers. Doolan and many others have all now had to get some degree of coaching qualification but to my mind that has 2 problems.

First of all if they are trained the same way does that mean they are likely to coach and think the same way?

Secondly it is fundamentally coaching training. Where's the training for managers? Coaching training is all about fitness, tactics, player development. Management is really about recruitment, budget management, ensuring you have the correct staff and facilities.

McCall was very much hands off in training but good at recruitment with arguably his best spells being when he had a good coach (Gardner Spiers with us, Gordon Chisolm, Brian Rice and Sandy Stewart elsewhere). Lambie was more towards that style.

We have for the last 20 years went through cycles where we appoint a manager with a good eye for a player (McCall), struggle to fully utilise them then appoint a good coach (McNamara, Archibald, first 6 months of Doolan) who make better use of the playing staff but then struggle to recruit to replace the players they inherited and we go downhill.

I think its very difficult for a Club in Scotland outside of the 2 arse cheeks to afford a DoF and coach. However also difficult to recruit an experienced manager on wages on offer so most appoint coaches and ex-players hoping they can quickly find their feet and I reckon that's why there isn't any new managerial talent emerging at lower levels.

So I think shortly we are going to need consider a move to something like a part time DoF post or a Head of player recruitment to give a younger cheaper coach a chance 

[Jordanhill Jag]

4 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

Getting rid of player who is playing consistently well, instead of two or three who don’t get a sniff of a game seems like a really bad decision to make and I don’t think even you with the low opinion you have of the Thistle board believe they would do that willingly.

It costs us nothing to end the loan deal - others we would need to negotiate pay offs 

Its about necessity -not good or bad decisions

 

[Lenziejag]

48 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

It costs us nothing to end the loan deal - others we would need to negotiate pay offs 

Its about necessity -not good or bad decisions

 

What necessity ? Did the £500k not come through ? Has something else happened that was going to make the budgeted loss worse ?

[Lenziejag]

4 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

By January of his final year in charge McCall wasn’t getting the financial backing either as there was no money- it’s the same scenario.  We are having to offload players in that January and I think only able to bring in mccavoy. But there were no people excusing the dire performances.  And prior to this Doolan was very well backed in the summer as we know, being able to bring in his main targets like Megwa, Chalmers etc 

Also we played Morton and Dunfermline- 2 clubs whose finances are as bad as ours, in fact Morton possibly worse.  Dunfermline don’t even have a manager 

Like McCalls last 2 league games - the last 2 league games under Doolan have been dreadful.  

Like McCalls last season this season under Doolan has been underwhelming.  Anyone who thinks this has been a good season I would love to know why. Of course we are on 4th while we were  5th under McCall though unlike Doolan we were still in a cup (thankfully as it turned out for our dire finances).

Doolan will likely get more time because of his legendary playing status.  
Someone said this season under Doolan has been like night and day compared to under McCall.  I’m making the point it has not been and is in fact very similar to that under McCall.

If the players are willing to play for Doolan I would be hoping for a big reaction this Friday.

 

The thing is, I don’t understand the need to offload players at this time. We just had a £500K investment approved in November securing our cash position. There was no indication that the budgeted loss was under pressure. We had taken 22 points from 9 games. There was every reason to give Doolan additional support not take it away. That is why I have asked when the decision to cut costs was taken and why.

[Third Lanark]

28 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

The thing is, I don’t understand the need to offload players at this time. We just had a £500K investment approved in November securing our cash position. There was no indication that the budgeted loss was under pressure. We had taken 22 points from 9 games. There was every reason to give Doolan additional support not take it away. That is why I have asked when the decision to cut costs was taken and why.

Im out of likes so cant like this post but I agree completely, i am incredibly puzzled as well.  If it wasnt for the posy yesterday by Norgethistle i would have been none the wiser about these supposed cuts.  Arguably mathematically we can at the very least still get into the playoffs despite my recent concerns about some of the results this season and we do desperately need another striker.  There are a couple of savings that could be made elsewhere - i dont think for instance we are going to be much weaker if Nilsons loan is recalled.  Diack does desperately need game time so loan him out and rumours of Stanway going to Airdrie on loan so presumably some of these wages could be used for say another striker etc, McCready has already gone so presumably there is a saving of some kind there even if not particularly high, as has Myles Roberts although he is undoubtedly a very big loss.  We do desperately need a couple of players in, particularly a striker.  I would have hoped some of these moves would have helped free up some money for it.

Although the poor cup runs starved us of good revenue, i thought the increase in crowds, hospitality etc was at least bringing in some cash along with the much needed monthly contributions from TJF.  I am like you puzzled as to decision to take funds away in the sense that we cant bring in any other players if thats the case.  Again there is also the point that staying in 4th is about £100,000 better off than finishing 5th and bringing in a new striker surely would not cost us that much. 

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:36 PM by Third Lanark

[laukat]

So far we're talking about possibly Stanway and Diack going on loan. Maybe Milne signed a pre-contract Maybe Nillsons loan ending and Roberts being recalled by Watford.

I'm not sure any of the above is actions that we wouldn't be wanting to do for standard footballing reasons or in the case of Roberts something we are in control of.

I would have thought we would be looking at moving on Muirhead and Lyon leaving. Smith and Ablade's loan ending and MacKenzie going out on loan (although perhaps he will be cover at fullback) for again footballing reasons. I wouldn't have thought Ablade or Smith's loan ending would save much, paying off Murihead and Lyon won't either and if Mackenzie went on loan we would at best recoup his wages.

We have almost no-one that anyone would pay a fee for so unless we are going to start releasing first 11 big earners then I'm not sure how this is actually saving anything.

The real question will be in the summer. If those out of contract are offered new terms and if not what level of replacement we pursue. Apart from those mentioned above I think only Mitchell, Robinson, and Bannigan are out of contract. I'm also not sure any of those are ones that we would be desperate to keep. 

For next season we already have Sayers, Ashcroft, O'Reilly, McBeth, Crawford, Turner, Mackay, Fitzpatrick, Chalmers, Lawless, Graham, Diack, Stanway and Mackenzie under contract. So unless we pay off some (Sayers and Stanway?) or send some out on loan (Mackenzie, Diack?) then I'm sure the savings are in the football budget.

If we were really cost cutting to prevent using up reserves then surely we would be reducing non-playing staff and expenses now?

[fenski]

Maybe we're 'offloading' players in order to make room for others to come in? Or maybe, with the exception of Roberts, we're loaning/ letting go of players that the manager has decided are surplus to requirements? Both scenarios which would pretty much be the case in any season or for any club at this time of year. Unless the player budget was underspent, which we know is not the case at Thistle.

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

The thing is, I don’t understand the need to offload players at this time. We just had a £500K investment approved in November securing our cash position. There was no indication that the budgeted loss was under pressure. We had taken 22 points from 9 games. There was every reason to give Doolan additional support not take it away. That is why I have asked when the decision to cut costs was taken and why.

Because we are running at a Forecasted £260K loss ( assumes finishing 4th) 

the £500K includes £200K to fix the JHS Roof - leaves £300K in Reserves 

TJF have stipulated we require £300K cash reserves at all times 

So in order to maintain the Cash Reserve Levels -we need to start reducing the £260K losses

The money for the additional squad costs came from an additional £300K contribution from Donald McClymont and another Fan - not the Club Budget - the £300K has been spent

Its highly unlikely we will win the league - and are going to have to fight to finish 4th

Therefore - we need to cut squad costs ( and will do so )

None of this is complicated ? 
 

And Ive now been saying the same thing since the Budget Presentations at the last AGM - the numbers simply didn't stack up 

As it turned out a Forecasted Breakeven fot this Season - turned into a Forecasted loss of £260K - 6 Months after the AGM 

Our Strategy is not sustainable ( even TJF despite there on line Bravado have come to that conclusion ) 

there isn't a Tranche 3 

So we will be cutting costs