The Jags Foundation

[partickthedog]

There has been mention of the transfer of the shares to the PTFC Trust having to be approved by the SFA.

Is that a hurdle of any significance or will the SFA simply rubber stamp this?

[sandy]

Good point @stolenscone. I’m never one for attention to detail but that’s an important one. 

None of the 5 have been democratically elected by their constituency (c.1600 ST holders) to my knowledge. No recent elections were publicised. Presumably this means the remaining 5 were self-appointed with the combined business expertise to satisfy 3BC. Lucky guys.

No doubt a 6th will pop up from nowhere, be mysteriously added to their announcement and all will be fine & dandy by the time we face ICT tomorrow. After all, the Club wouldn’t want the BBC commentators to talk about the share fiasco, would they? 

[stolenscone]

There is a more serious point here than the fact of the resignation of the chair of the PTFC Trust (if indeed he has resigned).  There is an element in this of our old friend the "leap of faith".  We are being asked to trust that the PTFC Trust is a suitable vehicle to act as the custodian of the Club's future.  

Leaps of faith have their place, but they need to be earned. You do that with a track record of hard work and delivery against measurable goals. In short, you have to earn trust.

In this instance, as far as I can tell, we are being asked to trust an organisation that has persistently failed to comply with its own rules for the last 7 years, has singularity failed to meet stated objectives to engage with and galvanise supporters, and which now appears to be struggling to demonstrate a level of decency and inclusiveness that most of us would consider to be a basic requirement of a respectful society.  That isn't an organisation that naturally lends itself to a plea for a leap of faith.

I appreciate that all of this is against the backdrop of shares being gifted, and that the person making the gift gets to decide where that gift goes.  That doesn't make it less of a shabby outcome for those most affected by this - the supporters. 

Given that the Club's chair is also intrinsically linked with the company that donated the shares (and seems to have done nothing to address that conflict of interest), I do think that we're entitled to expect better.

[partickthedog]

20 minutes ago, stolenscone said:

From the most recently available version of the PTFC Trust Deed (as varied), there requires to be a minimum of 6 Trustees at all times.  I assume that there are only 5 at the moment?

Have any of the remaining 5 been voted for, or have they all now been nominated by the Club?

Can the existing trustees simply assume a new trustee?

[sandy]

2 minutes ago, partickthedog said:

There has been mention of the transfer of the shares to the PTFC Trust having to be approved by the SFA.

Is that a hurdle of any significance or will the SFA simply rubber stamp this?

Depends what mood Maxy is in

[stolenscone]

1 minute ago, partickthedog said:

Can the existing trustees simply assume a new trustee?

Yes. This has been done multiple times over the years, in lieu of proper elections. But it's a basic corporate governance point.

[sandy]

3 minutes ago, stolenscone said:

There is a more serious point here than the fact of the resignation of the chair of the PTFC Trust (if indeed he has resigned).  There is an element in this of our old friend the "leap of faith".  We are being asked to trust that the PTFC Trust is a suitable vehicle to act as the custodian of the Club's future.  

Leaps of faith have their place, but they need to be earned. You do that with a track record of hard work and delivery against measurable goals. In short, you have to earn trust.

In this instance, as far as I can tell, we are being asked to trust an organisation that has persistently failed to comply with its own rules for the last 7 years, has singularity failed to meet stated objectives to engage with and galvanise supporters, and which now appears to be struggling to demonstrate a level of decency and inclusiveness that most of us would consider to be a basic requirement of a respectful society.  That isn't an organisation that naturally lends itself to a plea for a leap of faith.

I appreciate that all of this is against the backdrop of shares being gifted, and that the person making the gift gets to decide where that gift goes.  That doesn't make it less of a shabby outcome for those most affected by this - the supporters. 

Given that the Club's chair is also intrinsically linked with the company that donated the shares (and seems to have done nothing to address that conflict of interest), I do think that we're entitled to expect better.

Out of likes, but that’s an excellent post which raises some very good questions. Thanks.

Edited August 18, 2022 by sandy

[partickthedog]

Just now, stolenscone said:

Yes. This has been done multiple times over the years, in lieu of proper elections. But it's a basic corporate governance point.

Thank you for that and your previous excellent post. Very helpful.

[partickthedog]

One final question before I have to go and do something else with my day.

Can the Jags Foundation actively endeavour to recruit on Friday evening?

l presume that any helpful infrastructure such as tables would not be provided.

However, presumably the Club cannot stop fans willingly engaging with other fans, whether inside or outside the confines of the stadium?

[sandy]

Excellent piece of analysis by TJF this morning

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Statement-re-PTFC-Trust.pdf

[Norgethistle]

From The Jags Foundation

 

We have scrutinised the PTFC Trust proposal that has been publicised by Three Black Cats.

In short, we do not believe that this share transfer should proceed unless and until the fans have been fully informed about what it will involve and have had the opportunity to express a view about whether this fan ownership in any meaningful sense, or indeed what they want for the Club.

We urge all minority shareholders of PTFC to make the same point to the Club Board.

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/tjfs-appraisal-of-the-preferred-recipient-announcement/

 

[elevenone]

Raises many a good point and will be interesting to hear if any of the points raised are addressed either by 3BC’s or Trust.

[Garscube Road End 2]

This makes The Hurlingham Gentleman's Club( of which Prince of Wales is a member) and the most exclusive club in UK look like a local Miners Welfare Social.

The exclusivity is arrogant and alarming.

It shows how out of touch these people are, do not care about the fans and are so desperate to hold onto their little kingdom of power.

They will destroy Partick Thistle FC.

It begs the question of what financial gain is being procured from the club. And the likes of Alan Rough et al should be chased right down Garscube Road, Maryhill Road all the way to the River Clyde.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Is there any chance people in The Jags Foundation could reach out to The Jags Trust for some "behind the scenes" chats to take the sting out of this?  People are obviously angry.  I am sure The *PTFC Trust are Thistle fans but misguided and could perhaps be persuaded to change things?  We are a small fanbase and to be in this situation is crazy.

 

*corrected from Jags Trust to PTFC Trust

Edited August 18, 2022 by Lambies Lost Doo

[Norgethistle]

1 minute ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

Is there any chance people in The Jags Foundation could reach out to The Jags Trust for some "behind the scenes" chats to take the sting out of this?  People are obviously angry.  I am sure The Jags Trust are Thistle fans but misguided and could perhaps be persuaded to change things?  We are a small fanbase and to be in this situation is crazy.

Try not to confuse The Jags Trust (Elected) with The PTFC Trust (selected). 
It’s The PTFC Trust that’s been offered the shares 

[sandy]

1 hour ago, partickthedog said:

One final question before I have to go and do something else with my day.

Can the Jags Foundation actively endeavour to recruit on Friday evening?

l presume that any helpful infrastructure such as tables would not be provided.

However, presumably the Club cannot stop fans willingly engaging with other fans, whether inside or outside the confines of the stadium?

There is a rumour that TJF will not be allowed to have a presence within Firhill on Friday. If this rumour is substantiated, we are indeed seeing a regime akin to North Korea. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by sandy

[jagfox]

Of course The Jags Trust were the original share holding supporters group and even had board representation at one point . Now a long gone thing and completely sidelined...

Low has played a blinder here, at least on paper. Those who don't care about off field affairs and those against fan ownership for whatever reason split against fans who support TJF and fan ownership in a democratic organised manner 

 

[stolenscone]

2 minutes ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

Is there any chance people in The Jags Foundation could reach out to The Jags Trust for some "behind the scenes" chats to take the sting out of this?  People are obviously angry.  I am sure The Jags Trust are Thistle fans but misguided and could perhaps be persuaded to change things?  We are a small fanbase and to be in this situation is crazy.

I think that you make a fair point. I suspect that most reasonable minded supporters have nothing against the individuals now running the PTFC Trust.  I, for one, dont know anything about any of them, so i don't have an opinion. But you have to ask yourself why all of last week's trustees have suddenly resigned. Is it because they saw what was being proposed and didn't like the look of it?

So a conversation is had with the new trustees and they maybe come to the same conclusion.  Then what? The process keeps getting repeated?  And who keeps appointing every new set of trustees?

The issue isn't so much with the individuals as the structure of what is being proposed, and it's fundamental unsuitability for purpose. 

Who exactly is running the show and what are they trying to achieve? It's hugely damaging for our Club, and nobody can believe it's in the Club's best interests. But neither does that mean that supporters should stand by and accept being treated in this way.

[sandy]

It does seem strange that we have 5 guys on the PTFC Trust purporting to represent the Season Ticket holders, yet no-one knows anything about them.  Are they themselves ST holders? Do they belong to any of the supporters buses? Do they sponsor players etc?

I genuinely don’t know the answers to these questions. 

[stolenscone]

For what it's worth,  I am proceeding on the assumption that these are 5 well meaning people, trying to do their best.  I don't think that they are helping though by lending their name to this mess,

[jagfox]

I know two of them and both are long standing Jags fans. I don't know where the connection with the board was made. Probably through social media. I look forward to hear their reasoning to support this movement. They aren't folk in need of a free lunch so I don't see it as for personal gain. 

 

[sandy]

Thanks jagfox

[Tom Hosie]

17 minutes ago, jagfox said:

I know two of them and both are long standing Jags fans. I don't know where the connection with the board was made. Probably through social media. I look forward to hear their reasoning to support this movement. They aren't folk in need of a free lunch so I don't see it as for personal gain. 

 

Just to echo what jagfox has posted, I don't doubt for one second that the motivation of those trustees that I'm aware of is anything other than the betterment of Partick Thistle (and have no reason to think otherwise of the others). Indeed one has done fantastic work with the Charitable Trust (an organisation very, very close to my heart) and is precisely the kind of person I'd wish to see involved in any fans' organisation. 

That said, already with an issue of credibility, they've had, to say the least; a bad first 24 hours, and that's before the tweets of the then Chair were shared. If he has stood down as seems likely that's absolutely the right action. 

For what is worth, my very own personal view, is that they should have immediately addrressed the issue of their lack of credibility and reached out to TJF and The Jags Trust and opened channels and discussions on how all three fans' bodies can try and work together to try and make this something more substantial than it currently is. Not that anyone on here will disagree, this isn't fan ownership. It  needn't, shouldn't and won't I hope, be the end of the journey though.  

[Woodstock Jag]

2 minutes ago, Tom Hosie said:

Just to echo what jagfox has posted, I don't doubt for one second that the motivation of those trustees that I'm aware of is anything other than the betterment of Partick Thistle (and have no reason to think otherwise of the others). Indeed one has done fantastic work with the Charitable Trust (an organisation very, very close to my heart) and is precisely the kind of person I'd wish to see involved in any fans' organisation. 

That said, already with an issue of credibility, they've had, to say the least; a bad first 24 hours, and that's before the tweets of the then Chair were shared. If he has stood down as seems likely that's absolutely the right action. 

For what is worth, my very own personal view, is that they should have immediately addrressed the issue of their lack of credibility and reached out to TJF and The Jags Trust and opened channels and discussions on how all three fans' bodies can try and work together to try and make this something more substantial than it currently is. Not that anyone on here will disagree, this isn't fan ownership. It  needn't, shouldn't and won't I hope, be the end of the journey though.  

And just to emphasise, as we said in our statement today, TJF is willing to hear the PTFC Trust out, to answer the questions and concerns we and hundreds of our members and other fans have about what is proposed.

And if this really is what Thistle fans want, after they've been fully appraised of what it will involve, and they are given a clear opportunity to express that desire before any share transfer, so be it. We will work with any organisation that genuinely has the best interests of our Club at heart.

[watties wallies]

4 minutes ago, Tom Hosie said:

Just to echo what jagfox has posted, I don't doubt for one second that the motivation of those trustees that I'm aware of is anything other than the betterment of Partick Thistle (and have no reason to think otherwise of the others). Indeed one has done fantastic work with the Charitable Trust (an organisation very, very close to my heart) and is precisely the kind of person I'd wish to see involved in any fans' organisation. 

That said, already with an issue of credibility, they've had, to say the least; a bad first 24 hours, and that's before the tweets of the then Chair were shared. If he has stood down as seems likely that's absolutely the right action. 

For what is worth, my very own personal view, is that they should have immediately addrressed the issue of their lack of credibility and reached out to TJF and The Jags Trust and opened channels and discussions on how all three fans' bodies can try and work together to try and make this something more substantial than it currently is. Not that anyone on here will disagree, this isn't fan ownership. It  needn't, shouldn't and won't I hope, be the end of the journey though.  

last paragraph      spot on