Jordanhill Jag Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 7 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: We (TJF and the Trustees) had a list of questions on the finances, several of which were answered in the Club Board’s presentation (which I understand will be circulated more widely in some form). TJF and the Trustees invited questions from members and beneficiaries. Neil Drain asked about the basket of questions submitted to do with stadium redevelopment, The Jags Trust asked about stadium maintenance, and as you acknowledge, I asked a follow-on question about the finances (though limitations of the technology set up meant online participants couldn’t really ask follow-ups). I think it’s only fair to acknowledge that quite a detailed set of financial figures and projections were provided to shareholders in the presentation. Shareholders absolutely can and should scrutinise whether those forecasts are in fact delivered-on this year, and that will inform the Trustees’ scrutiny of the 2024-25 budget. It’s important to remember that this will, for the first time, have to be approved by the majority shareholder under the Club-Trust Agreement we negotiated. I’d tentatively suggest at this stage that that new process is the most effective avenue to scrutinise the financial record and proposals of the current Thistle board. TJF wasn’t even a trustee when the 2023-24 budget was set. The position is simple & there were no real answers given Season 22/23 Turnover increased by 18% - this was due to the Rangers Game & some Contributions from TJF - say roughly £300K Total - without it Turnover in 22/23 would actually have gone down - we finished 4th ( similar to 21/22) Play Offs are not in 22/23 Accounts but income is minimal for them as its part of the Monies paid out by the SPFL We made a £300K loss for 22/23 - those debts are carried over into 23/24 and were paid back from this Years income circa August 23 Soo - before we kick a Ball - our Revenue income is down by £300K due to Residual Debt - chances of another Rangers Game unlikely - so that's another £300K down- compared to overall Revenue last Season - so Cashflow Wise -its down £600K from this Years income - I raised this - didn't really get a detailed answer as to how it would be squared off We were given presentations of "Forecasts " but No real Detail of how increased revenue would be achieved ( apart from exploring other Areas to increase Hospitality ) The harsh reality is that PTFC Turnover in the Championship rarely changes - there is no "Magical " untapped Revenue Streams that previous Boards missed - so you cut your Cloth ( & overhead to Match your income ) its as simple as that So the Very Best Case Scenario being given is that this Season - assuming all Targets are Hit - is we lose £150K - thats Best Case - however the USA Monies are underwriting us - if we eventually run out of Cash by racking up losses - there is another £500K from the USA Investors available up the track - so no real pressure to break even Which in essence explains why we suddenly went from Fan Ownership to the German Model overnight - as the potential for selling more Shares to underpin losses has been factored in up the track Last Year at the AGM TJF were asking detailed Questions on Finances - and I appreciate Woodland Jag attempted this remotely - However there are Two Chartered Accountants on TJF Board ( as it happens both were sitting on the Club Board Directors Side ) - Not one Single Question from TJF or any other Trust Reps on Finances in the Room - not one I will end with this as its important - a Shareholder raised the Question ( not me ) of last Years Accounts being signed off as " a going concern " by our Major Shareholder ( then the Thistle Trust ) only to discover Weeks later that there were major Cashflow Issues The Question was asked on due diligence - at the time of Share Handover last Year - the response was that it was limited - as there was only published Accounts Available - and therefore the Accounts "going concern" was agreed - Yet from the same Accounts - Sandy Fyffe identified circa £500K of a Shortfall - which TJF stated in there report last Year ( turned out it was £600K ) The info is there if you actually look Anyway - Im off to brush up on my Deutche in preparation for the German Model of 51% Fan Ownership in the not too distant future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 12 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Why ? That assumes that TJF are the correct Tent ? Because TJF have the majority shareholding and so power. I'm sure you make a lot of good points but the message is lost on a message board. It comes across as confrontational instead of useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: Because TJF have the majority shareholding and so power. I'm sure you make a lot of good points but the message is lost on a message board. It comes across as confrontational instead of useful. Important to stress that TJF is not, itself, the majority shareholder. We are a trustee of the PTFC Trust, which is the majority shareholder, and our members are included among the beneficiaries of that trust. When Neil Drain steps down we will be codecision-makers with The Jags Trust, acting in the interests of both organisation's members, season ticket holders and 71 Club members. I appreciate a lot of folk see it as the above for shorthand, but I think it's still an important distinction. There are multiple ways people can participate in fan ownership at Thistle. Obviously I would encourage folk to do it through TJF, as it has the greatest potential for fundraising and community-building, but we have deliberately kept fan ownership as a "broad tent" for those who (for whatever reason) don't want to be members of TJF. I hope that we can persuade those with doubts that we're the right vehicle for getting involved through what we achieve in the season ahead. Edited January 12 by Woodstock Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: How many Shares does the Current Board own in there own Right ? In fact how many Current Directors actually own any Shares ? My comment was really tongue in cheek. However, since you raise it, do you think it is important that the board or directors own shares in a football club ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 29 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: My comment was really tongue in cheek. However, since you raise it, do you think it is important that the board or directors own shares in a football club ? The obvious answer to this, of course, is that it's probably more important when a football club is privately-owned, and therefore when the decisions of the Club Board are held to account by (predominantly) likeminded individual shareholders. It's drastically less important, and if anything less appropriate, when a football club is fan-owned and to be regarded as more of a community asset. The Club-Trust Agreement that has been introduced (subject to consultation), the commitment to two elected fan representatives, and Trust approval for other Director appointments, provides a structure for accountability that better suits those circumstances. I seriously doubt there is anything to be gained at a fan-owned football club from factionalising the Club Board based on groups of shareholders. Donald McClymont is there to protect the terms of his investment, without which the Club would have gone heavily cash negative mid-way through this current season. TJF's rep is there in recognition of the ongoing financial commitment its members are making to the Club and the need for a fan-accountable presence during the transition to a more conventional and permanent fan ownership structure. The rest of the Board, including the new joiners, have assigned roles and responsibilities, as was set out at the start of the AGM presentation. They're not there because of the financial stake they do or don't have in the Club. They're there to fill the function presently assigned to them. Longer-term we expect the Club's Corporate Governance Manual to ensure a robust delineation of roles and responsibilities. This will enable targeted recruitment at Club Board level to fill skills and experience gaps as and when they are identified or arise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanieD Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Perhaps cynically I sometimes wonder if “fan ownership” is, to a degree, a bit “smoke and mirrors”. Does the average fan feel any more connected with the club safe in the knowledge that fellow fans are looking after the best interests of the club on behalf of all fans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, JeanieD said: Perhaps cynically I sometimes wonder if “fan ownership” is, to a degree, a bit “smoke and mirrors”. Does the average fan feel any more connected with the club safe in the knowledge that fellow fans are looking after the best interests of the club on behalf of all fans? The key point here, I think, is that you get to influence who is involved in important decision-making. That's what the elected fan reps on the Club Board are about. The CTA will also give ST holders and TJF/TJT members a direct and binding say over major decisions affecting the shareholding, any proposal to move from Firhill etc. Longer-term, it's our hope that consultation exercises, and the feedback that is then fed to the Club Board, will lead to more fan-centred decision-making and initiatives that make the fans feel more valued. Ultimately, a football club is still a business and difficult (often unpopular) decisions will still need to be taken by custodians in the Club's best interests. But I absolutely trust that those decisions are more likely to be good ones when those in the room are fellow fans with a line of democratic accountability back to the best part of 2000 fans of the football club. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcapmilkdrinker Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, JeanieD said: Perhaps cynically I sometimes wonder if “fan ownership” is, to a degree, a bit “smoke and mirrors”. Does the average fan feel any more connected with the club safe in the knowledge that fellow fans are looking after the best interests of the club on behalf of all fans? I do. But more importantly I also now trust that the board isn’t going to sell off the club and any assets to an unknown venture capitalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 6 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: Because TJF have the majority shareholding and so power. I'm sure you make a lot of good points but the message is lost on a message board. It comes across as confrontational instead of useful. OK for Clarity - Im not make “ Good Points” - I asked the Questions TJF should have asked as the Major Shareholder but they are now part of the Gang - so the Board Get a Free Pass from them There is £600K down on Revenues from an Average £2MN Turnover due to residual debt and not having another Rangers Game Beyond “ looking at other areas of Hospitality” in the long term - zero response on how Revenue will grow to address the Shortfall Best Case - we lose £150K thats BEST CASE realistically it could be nearer £300K Any organisation Ive worked with and a Budget Presentation with such Vagueness would have got you the sack TJF have TWO Chartered Accountants on there Board - where is the Grilling of the Budgets they did last Year ? Nothing has changed we are still in the Shit financially however the USA Money is underwriting Our losses - so no one is that fussed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteppsJag Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: OK for Clarity - Im not make “ Good Points” - I asked the Questions TJF should have asked as the Major Shareholder but they are now part of the Gang - so the Board Get a Free Pass from them There is £600K down on Revenues from an Average £2MN Turnover due to residual debt and not having another Rangers Game Beyond “ looking at other areas of Hospitality” in the long term - zero response on how Revenue will grow to address the Shortfall Best Case - we lose £150K thats BEST CASE realistically it could be nearer £300K Any organisation Ive worked with and a Budget Presentation with such Vagueness would have got you the sack TJF have TWO Chartered Accountants on there Board - where is the Grilling of the Budgets they did last Year ? Nothing has changed we are still in the Shit financially however the USA Money is underwriting Our losses - so no one is that fussed Yawn! Zzzzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/partick-thistle-set-second-500k-223000353.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 11 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said: https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/partick-thistle-set-second-500k-223000353.html Yip - now we know why “ The German Model” suddenly appeared out of no where Question to TJF - if the current £500K is Working Capital and Reserves and the Board Presentation shows a £150K loss this Year and into profit next year Why would you need a second £500K ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 4 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Yip - now we know why “ The German Model” suddenly appeared out of no where Question to TJF - if the current £500K is Working Capital and Reserves and the Board Presentation shows a £150K loss this Year and into profit next year Why would you need a second £500K ? Invest more money in improving the team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, dl1971 said: Invest more money in improving the team? So what your suggesting is that we keep racking up losses - sell off more shares - get more money - buy players and hope we get promoted ? Sounds like a Solid Plan - you should apply to join the Board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 8 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Yip - now we know why “ The German Model” suddenly appeared out of no where Question to TJF - if the current £500K is Working Capital and Reserves and the Board Presentation shows a £150K loss this Year and into profit next year Why would you need a second £500K ? The article says it was revealed at the AGM about the £500K. You attended the AGM ? I am surprised you didn’t shout this from the rooftops. i am not sure what you want for PTFC. You complained about the going concern sign off last year. Of course without it would mean the demise of the club, or was it a go at the auditors, or at the board. I really don’t know why you have turned on TJF. What have they done to upset you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 7 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So what your suggesting is that we keep racking up losses - sell off more shares - get more money - buy players and hope we get promoted ? Sounds like a Solid Plan - you should apply to join the Board Let's hear it, simply: How would you rack up profits? You don't like benefactors putting money into the club, you don't appear to approve of spending money in the hope of improving the team... What the hell do you want? Give a concrete plan, not just some abstraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 8 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So what your suggesting is that we keep racking up losses - sell off more shares - get more money - buy players and hope we get promoted ? Sounds like a Solid Plan - you should apply to join the Board It wasn't a suggestion, just what I thought may be occurring. I've no wish to join the board, but I suspect you may still have ambitions, with all your plans..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 57 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said: Let's hear it, simply: How would you rack up profits? You don't like benefactors putting money into the club, you don't appear to approve of spending money in the hope of improving the team... What the hell do you want? Give a concrete plan, not just some abstraction. He doesnt appear to like TJF putting money into the club either, or supporting the club in many ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derby Jag Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 I am always generally deeply suspicious of people who seem to have nothing positive to say and only negativity. I admire Woodstock Jag for always responding as I imagine it is being done in his spare time and that the effort involved to respond to one person is completely disproportionate. Challenge and debate is good and welcome but I reading this just makes me frustrated. I don't see any effort to help or give constructive opinions just snipes and ambiguous statements. I'm a member of TJF, I've not agreed with everything they have done but am overall very happy with how they are operating. I don't really understand how you could actively be against them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 14 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: The key point here, I think, is that you get to influence who is involved in important decision-making. That's what the elected fan reps on the Club Board are about. The CTA will also give ST holders and TJF/TJT members a direct and binding say over major decisions affecting the shareholding, any proposal to move from Firhill etc. Longer-term, it's our hope that consultation exercises, and the feedback that is then fed to the Club Board, will lead to more fan-centred decision-making and initiatives that make the fans feel more valued. Ultimately, a football club is still a business and difficult (often unpopular) decisions will still need to be taken by custodians in the Club's best interests. But I absolutely trust that those decisions are more likely to be good ones when those in the room are fellow fans with a line of democratic accountability back to the best part of 2000 fans of the football club. JeanieD’s point was about the average fan. I am sure you will have stats about how many TJF members participate in the various surveys etc. I think it’s normal for the leadership of organisations to generate the issues to be voted on etc. True fan ownership will be when at least some issues to be voted on come from the general body of fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 10 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: True fan ownership will be when at least some issues to be voted on come from the general body of fans. Don't think I'm making a totally relevant point but there has already been broad consultation with TJF members via questionnaires. As a specific fan attitude/wishes re youth development, primarily the way it is hoped to be funded. So imo we're at least already at the stepping stone stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 15 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: Don't think I'm making a totally relevant point but there has already been broad consultation with TJF members via questionnaires. As a specific fan attitude/wishes re youth development, primarily the way it is hoped to be funded. So imo we're at least already at the stepping stone stage. I would add to this that our Conference League consultation was a direct response to members contacting us about it, and the results of that survey led directly to the Club Board adopting a position opposed to those changes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 6 hours ago, Jaggernaut said: Let's hear it, simply: How would you rack up profits? You don't like benefactors putting money into the club, you don't appear to approve of spending money in the hope of improving the team... What the hell do you want? Give a concrete plan, not just some abstraction. They are not "benefactors" that is the whole point They are buying assets in the Club in the form of shares - this is necessary because we run the Club at a loss I have no issue in the USA Company buying the Club and Running it - I do have an issue with this not being upfront and open - we went from "Fan Ownership" to the "German Model" of 51% Ownership overnight - when was that agreed and by whom ? There is more than one way to run a balanced budget & TJF first question is are those on the Board 100% capable of doing so Because if they don't - Plan B is to keep selling off shares to the USA Investor ( I'm assuming up to 49% ) If required Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 11 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: They are not "benefactors" that is the whole point They are buying assets in the Club in the form of shares - this is necessary because we run the Club at a loss I have no issue in the USA Company buying the Club and Running it - I do have an issue with this not being upfront and open - we went from "Fan Ownership" to the "German Model" of 51% Ownership overnight - when was that agreed and by whom ? There is more than one way to run a balanced budget & TJF first question is are those on the Board 100% capable of doing so Because if they don't - Plan B is to keep selling off shares to the USA Investor ( I'm assuming up to 49% ) If required You have a point, caller. Because it we rely on American money to get through each season, McClymont will soon hold 49% 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 7 hours ago, Lenziejag said: The article says it was revealed at the AGM about the £500K. You attended the AGM ? I am surprised you didn’t shout this from the rooftops. i am not sure what you want for PTFC. You complained about the going concern sign off last year. Of course without it would mean the demise of the club, or was it a go at the auditors, or at the board. I really don’t know why you have turned on TJF. What have they done to upset you ? First stop equating PTFC with the Board - they are not one in the same - so asking "what I want from PTFC" is not correct - I've questioned the Club Board & the TJF Board - they ARE NOT PTFC I asked questions at the AGM - the main one being that with a £600K reduction in Revenue on an average £2.5MN Income - how are the books being balanced & what is the USA Money being used for - there was no clear answer - apart from vague discussions on looking at converting Cupboards into Hospitality Areas I did not see a firm Plan in any shape or form on how to balance the Books ( which is a concern ) What was revealed is actually the USA Money is not an "investment" or "Reserves" - a forecasted best case scenario is £150K losses - could be a lot higher than that - we don't know - so what happens is we eat into the £500K underwriting losses - then sell off some more shares for another £500K etc etc to keep covering Trading Losses If that's the plan - Say That If TJF - who have Two Chartered Accountants on there Board ( moving from TJF to Club Board like Ships passing in the Night ) are accepting that this is the Plan - Say That I actually don't care if the USA Investors take us over - I think it would be a Good Thing- and if its happening- then do it now I do care about TJF crucifying the last Board on there Financial Plans ( Rightly So ) at the last AGM - identifying gaps in the Finances - I do care about TJF with Two Chartered Accountants not asking pertinent questions on Finances & Revenue Strategy- at the current AGM & giving the Board a Free Pass where the only key difference is we now have "Money from America" so we don't need to worry ( we can simply sell off more Club Assetts in the form of Shares ) & follow "The German Model" Why are TJF so reticent to ask awkward Questions ? They were all over it last Year ? Why when it was stated that the Trust were involved all along regards the USA Investment did the TJF Reps in the Room not Question this - as TJF clearly stated at the time - they were advised late on- and presented with a Fait Accompli - why did the TJF Reps in the Room allow this to go unchecked ? First - I didn't ask the Question Ref "Going Concern" it was the chap next to me ( no idea who he was ) but he raised a massive issue - which again TJF seem unconcerned about Last Years Accounts were voted through and there were no issues as "a going concern" they were voted through by the Thistle Trust - who owned most of the Club Shares Our Current Finance Director ( who was a Board Member of the Thistle Trust ) was asked if he did Due Diligence before the Thistle Trust Voted to accept the Accounts as a going concern - and why a Couple of Weeks Later a Black Hole of circa £600K was discovered - the response was that he only had the Published Audited Accounts to go on - so Due Diligence was extremely limited BUT and this absolutely key - Sandy Fyffe at last years AGM with THE SAME INFO identified a £500K shortfall ( which became £600K ) TJF published a detailed report identifying the Shortfall Yet this is ignored - simply move along - nothing to see here - we now have the American Money - everything is fine - TJF Policy the Board Recommend Directors - its not there decision ( unless of course its Sacking a Club Chairman ) Now from where I'm sitting - it might be "negative" but its similar Questions to those TJF were asking a Year ago- How are the Books being balanced with a Reduction in Revenue of circa £600K - but its now move along - nothing to see here TJF might want to stop closing down debate with various Fans on Social Media - and actually start asking if they are doing the right thing by there Members- and that as it did last Year - starts with sorting the Club Finances & ensuring they have the Correct Board to do so And a Final Note to the TJF Parody Account Woodend Jag Is Graeme Cowie - I'm Jim Alexander ( aka Jordanhill Jag ) - if your going to quote us - at least get our names right ( and No I have zero link to the TJF Parody Account ) they have there own Agenda - nothing to do with me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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