Fawlty Towers Posted January 22 Author Report Share Posted January 22 OK we are having too much fun with cup wins so time to get this topic running again. Seriously though, a good update here from TJF. https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/TJF-Summary-and-Review-of-Club-AGM-2024.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted January 23 Author Report Share Posted January 23 The accounts to 31st May 2023 are now on Companies House as well: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC005417/filing-history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 14 hours ago, Fawlty Towers said: OK we are having too much fun with cup wins so time to get this topic running again. Seriously though, a good update here from TJF. https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/TJF-Summary-and-Review-of-Club-AGM-2024.pdf To be fair, is there much more in that than JJ has already had his say about ? Apart from the football update. On that, I understand Doolan wanting to protect our assets. However, what I am not so sure about is the emphasis on the Academy players. What are the benefits of doing that ? Are they cheaper. Is it less work. Is there something else ? This isn’t a dig at the players from the academy we have, I am genuinely curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifexile Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 19 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: To be fair, is there much more in that than JJ has already had his say about ? Apart from the football update. On that, I understand Doolan wanting to protect our assets. However, what I am not so sure about is the emphasis on the Academy players. What are the benefits of doing that ? Are they cheaper. Is it less work. Is there something else ? This isn’t a dig at the players from the academy we have, I am genuinely curious. I see the benefits of academy players as basically twofold. Bringing 2 or 3 players through each season reduces the need to sign players. It also gives us assets to sell on. We can argue how successful or not we are doing that but it also shows potential recruits that (1) there's a track record of academy graduates making it to the 1st team and (2) that leads to them being in the 'shop window' which can lead to moves to bigger clubs. All this needs to be set against the cost of running the academy but that's a separate debate! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 35 minutes ago, fifexile said: I see the benefits of academy players as basically twofold. Bringing 2 or 3 players through each season reduces the need to sign players. It also gives us assets to sell on. We can argue how successful or not we are doing that but it also shows potential recruits that (1) there's a track record of academy graduates making it to the 1st team and (2) that leads to them being in the 'shop window' which can lead to moves to bigger clubs. All this needs to be set against the cost of running the academy but that's a separate debate! So true. You've also got to evaluate the effectiveness/cost of a scouting system. Stands to reason the less emphasis on a youth policy the more you rely on scouting to identify young potentials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dan Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 I feel that maintaining the Academy should be a major way for the club, producing our own players from an early age supplemented by "feeding in" some teenagers discarded by other Clubs should/could, as @fifexile said, reduce some wages and hopefully bring some cash back to the Club through transfers , sell on and training fees etc. This does require a commitment that we are willing to give the youngsters game time and also commit long term to the Academy. As a fan owned Club we hopefully will have a say in this and make this a priority. Looking at Hamilton a few years back, they did really well at this a few years back but due to a number of events and decisions seem to have given up on this. Although, I have no idea of their current team make up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 Gotta also be minded that the make up of this season's squad at one time looked like much of it would've consisted of youngsters emerging from the academy. They'd have played alongside our remaining contracted players and a few cheapo loanees. In short just having those academy players could've been a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 Having an academy also creates future supporters, even if they don't make the first team. Not just the kids, but parents and friends can become regular supporters. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 35 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: Having an academy also creates future supporters, even if they don't make the first team. Not just the kids, but parents and friends can become regular supporters. I don't really buy that. Players bounce between academies however they feel their career will benefit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, fifexile said: I see the benefits of academy players as basically twofold. Bringing 2 or 3 players through each season reduces the need to sign players. It also gives us assets to sell on. We can argue how successful or not we are doing that but it also shows potential recruits that (1) there's a track record of academy graduates making it to the 1st team and (2) that leads to them being in the 'shop window' which can lead to moves to bigger clubs. All this needs to be set against the cost of running the academy but that's a separate debate! The key benefit is a conveyor-belt of talent that generates (at least initially) inexpensive first-team players and/or transfer and sell-on fees further down the line. I understand that, across Liam Lindsay, Kevin Nisbet, Aidan Fitzpatrick, James Penrice and others, the Academy has (there or thereabouts) generated revenue for the Club well into 7-figures. The sell-on fees and training compensation payments can get really quite substantial if a player goes on to bigger and better things. Worth emphasising that, at the moment, the Club does not pay to run the Academy. After exhausting the (extensive) capital put in by Colin Weir, the Academy is being funded mostly by a benefactor, partly by sponsorship and partly by the new TJF pledge, this season. There are legitimate questions about how to make the Academy sustainable to fund in the longer-term, but as indicated in the TJF consultation on the pledge, the Club simply wasn't in the position to commit financial (or major administrative) support to it back in the summer. Unless a decision is made to make savings elsewhere in the Club's budget, I don't anticipate this changing. The solution will therefore need to find a way of meeting costs in the short-term and an equitable way of splitting income from graduates sold-on in the longer-term. Without the intervention of the benefactor in late summer, let's be clear though: there would be no Thistle Weir Youth Academy still in existence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dan Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 3 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: The key benefit is a conveyor-belt of talent that generates (at least initially) inexpensive first-team players and/or transfer and sell-on fees further down the line. I understand that, across Liam Lindsay, Kevin Nisbet, Aidan Fitzpatrick, James Penrice and others, the Academy has (there or thereabouts) generated revenue for the Club well into 7-figures. The sell-on fees and training compensation payments can get really quite substantial if a player goes on to bigger and better things. Worth emphasising that, at the moment, the Club does not pay to run the Academy. After exhausting the (extensive) capital put in by Colin Weir, the Academy is being funded mostly by a benefactor, partly by sponsorship and partly by the new TJF pledge, this season. There are legitimate questions about how to make the Academy sustainable to fund in the longer-term, but as indicated in the TJF consultation on the pledge, the Club simply wasn't in the position to commit financial (or major administrative) support to it back in the summer. Unless a decision is made to make savings elsewhere in the Club's budget, I don't anticipate this changing. The solution will therefore need to find a way of meeting costs in the short-term and an equitable way of splitting income from graduates sold-on in the longer-term. Without the intervention of the benefactor in late summer, let's be clear though: there would be no Thistle Weir Youth Academy still in existence. Thanks for that, do we have any idea of the cost of running an effective Academy. I realise that there may be a degree of commercial confidentiality over stats but a ball park estimate may give us an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, Big Dan said: Thanks for that, do we have any idea of the cost of running an effective Academy. I realise that there may be a degree of commercial confidentiality over stats but a ball park estimate may give us an idea. The honest answer is that I don't have those sorts of numbers to hand and it depends. The main costs are (a) staff and (b) facilities - the costs of these vary drastically depending on whether there is overlap with the Club and/or the terms on which facilities can be accessed. The corporate structure also impacts access to things like grants. tl;dr it's quite complicated and not my area! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 7 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said: Having an academy also creates future supporters, even if they don't make the first team. Not just the kids, but parents and friends can become regular supporters. Considerations such as funding an Academy and bringing scouting in-house (vs outsourcing) should be based on overall economic value - not just sticker price - for reasons exactly such as this. On the balance sheet, I suspect the Academy is a loss for us. But community value, the part it plays in keeping us regarded as a serious club, and other benefits can’t be ignored. And these won’t show up as line items on the financials but they are undeniably present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitelees jag Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 12 hours ago, Big Dan said: I feel that maintaining the Academy should be a major way for the club, producing our own players from an early age supplemented by "feeding in" some teenagers discarded by other Clubs should/could, as @fifexile said, reduce some wages and hopefully bring some cash back to the Club through transfers , sell on and training fees etc. This does require a commitment that we are willing to give the youngsters game time and also commit long term to the Academy. As a fan owned Club we hopefully will have a say in this and make this a priority. Looking at Hamilton a few years back, they did really well at this a few years back but due to a number of events and decisions seem to have given up on this. Although, I have no idea of their current team make up. Hamilton still have 1 of the best youth set ups in the country. Sold 3 teenagers to English clubs in the summer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 On 1/23/2024 at 5:24 PM, Woodstock Jag said: The honest answer is that I don't have those sorts of numbers to hand and it depends. The main costs are (a) staff and (b) facilities - the costs of these vary drastically depending on whether there is overlap with the Club and/or the terms on which facilities can be accessed. The corporate structure also impacts access to things like grants. tl;dr it's quite complicated and not my area! There is a train of thought that you do away with Youth Academies -and pick up players who didn't cut it at the larger Club Academies into your development Squad The problem with Youth Academies is that smaller Clubs try and copy larger Clubs ( in fact this problem extends way beyond Youth Academies ) but smaller Clubs simply don't have the Finances Lambie was never interested in Youth Development It would be interesting to get an actual cost benefit analysis of money out to money in - as for Players moving to the first team - unless we sell them the advantages are limited We have a benefactor this Season which we are grateful for ( for how long ? ) - in reality it demonstrates that the Club Finances are even more precarious than being suggested As the other Clubs in our League finance there Youth Set up from the Club Budget - ours is outsourced 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 I'd agree with the above. I don't think we are big enough to have a fully fledged Academy and the costs involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted January 25 Author Report Share Posted January 25 Whilst we are enjoying the men and women's teams recent cup victories just to point out that the youth team are in the quarter final of the Scottish Cup playing Ayr away at 2pm on Friday - let's hope they can make the semis. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 On 1/24/2024 at 9:25 PM, Jordanhill Jag said: There is a train of thought that you do away with Youth Academies -and pick up players who didn't cut it at the larger Club Academies into your development Squad The problem with Youth Academies is that smaller Clubs try and copy larger Clubs ( in fact this problem extends way beyond Youth Academies ) but smaller Clubs simply don't have the Finances Lambie was never interested in Youth Development It would be interesting to get an actual cost benefit analysis of money out to money in - as for Players moving to the first team - unless we sell them the advantages are limited We have a benefactor this Season which we are grateful for ( for how long ? ) - in reality it demonstrates that the Club Finances are even more precarious than being suggested As the other Clubs in our League finance there Youth Set up from the Club Budget - ours is outsourced Lambie had the benefit of a transfer window opened all season so he could wheel and deal. As for externally funded academy’s Ayr United’s is externally funded and a separate company to the club (Main funding comes via SFA, ScotGovt, Lottery & William Grant Foundation). An academy not only generates cheaper first team players, it also cements the clubs place in the community Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 4 hours ago, Norgethistle said: Lambie had the benefit of a transfer window opened all season so he could wheel and deal. As for externally funded academy’s Ayr United’s is externally funded and a separate company to the club (Main funding comes via SFA, ScotGovt, Lottery & William Grant Foundation). An academy not only generates cheaper first team players, it also cements the clubs place in the community We No Longer have Community Teams as part of Thistle Weir - this was stopped a while ago - Players are recruited from all over based on ability - the Community link argument holds no water As for “ Cheaper” First Team players - most Managers would prefer the Youth Academy Budget in there Player Budget - but Fans are obsessed with the Grow your own Players Myth As if said a proper cost benefit analysis should be done and actually see what we get for our money Currently PTFC cannot afford a Youth Academy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 Three observations: 1. The efforts to keep the Youth Academy going were specifically at the urging of the current management team 2. The community links of an Academy are not solely concerned with the community football initiatives 3. Whilst a cost-benefit analysis is absolutely a sensible thing to do (and sustainability work has been ongoing for several months now at the Academy) it's an odd thing to call for if someone has already made up their mind that it isn't affordable. Surely it's precisely that exercise that will determine whether that is the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifexile Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 49 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: We No Longer have Community Teams as part of Thistle Weir - this was stopped a while ago - Players are recruited from all over based on ability - the Community link argument holds no water As for “ Cheaper” First Team players - most Managers would prefer the Youth Academy Budget in there Player Budget - but Fans are obsessed with the Grow your own Players Myth As if said a proper cost benefit analysis should be done and actually see what we get for our money Currently PTFC cannot afford a Youth Academy Not sure what you mean by the 'grow your own players myth'. Care to elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hosie Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 I, for one, don't know where I would be without these regular rays of sunshine illuminating the pages of this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 2 minutes ago, Tom Hosie said: I, for one, don't know where I would be without these regular rays of sunshine illuminating the pages of this forum. I do look in here periodically, when I am feeling hopeful and upbeat. It is important to give myself a reality check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 On 1/23/2024 at 12:06 PM, Woodstock Jag said: The key benefit is a conveyor-belt of talent that generates (at least initially) inexpensive first-team players and/or transfer and sell-on fees further down the line. I understand that, across Liam Lindsay, Kevin Nisbet, Aidan Fitzpatrick, James Penrice and others, the Academy has (there or thereabouts) generated revenue for the Club well into 7-figures. The sell-on fees and training compensation payments can get really quite substantial if a player goes on to bigger and better things. Worth emphasising that, at the moment, the Club does not pay to run the Academy. After exhausting the (extensive) capital put in by Colin Weir, the Academy is being funded mostly by a benefactor, partly by sponsorship and partly by the new TJF pledge, this season. There are legitimate questions about how to make the Academy sustainable to fund in the longer-term, but as indicated in the TJF consultation on the pledge, the Club simply wasn't in the position to commit financial (or major administrative) support to it back in the summer. Unless a decision is made to make savings elsewhere in the Club's budget, I don't anticipate this changing. The solution will therefore need to find a way of meeting costs in the short-term and an equitable way of splitting income from graduates sold-on in the longer-term. Without the intervention of the benefactor in late summer, let's be clear though: there would be no Thistle Weir Youth Academy still in existence. Who was the benefactor WJ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, fifexile said: Not sure what you mean by the 'grow your own players myth'. Care to elaborate? My assumption would be the myth is that Academies can consistently grow enough players to warrant the cost of maintaining an a academy - through either: 1) Becoming first-team regulars at lower salaries than journeymen 2) Achieving sufficient sell-on fees 3) A combination of the two All told I would expect there is some historical creedence here. Lindsay and Fitzpatrick were sell-on rarities, and Cooper got sold on (probably for an insignificant amount) before he could reach the first team. Perhaps Dools consciously intends to turn this around with guys like Stanway, Lyon, Diack, McKenzie, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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