Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 12 minutes ago, Norgethistle said: I’m not sure where the several hundreds of thousands comes from. We got around £200k against Rangers because Ibrox was full and game was on TV. Parkhead is rarely half full for cup games against lower league opposition and game may not have been selected for TV. Yes it cost us money, but all managers make mistakes or get outfoxed by opposition managers which makes their decision the wrong one. Sacking a manager every time they made a decision would have teams changing managers fortnightly. He got it spot on against County, did we offer him a rise? We can’t go calling for his head in one cup game as decisions cost us money, where the previous cup game his decisions made us money. So at what point do you sack a Manager - how do you measure it ? At what point & when do you remove Directors if there Strategy isn't working - how do you measure it ? ( obviously a key Board Role is Sacking & appointing the Manager ) if not there most important role Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag36 Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 3 hours ago, eljaggo said: Given that the defensive set up is at the heart of our problems, would it not be possible for Doolan to get some advice and help from an experienced retired manager/player. I agree with those arguing that it is too soon to judge him, but the man is inexperienced and needs help. Agree he needs a defensive minded coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 9 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: How come other Championship Teams manage to sack Managers and not have to appiont inexperienced "legends" ? For the most part, they run losses underwritten by soft loans, other forms of debt, or regular investment from benefactors. Dundee lost over £800k in 2021-22 and posted substantial six-figure losses last season too. Dundee United have consistently posted seven figure losses in recent seasons. Raith Rovers saw heavy reliance on benefactors in recent seasons, and only made profits when on good cup runs. Their new investors say they have drastically improved their position. We shall have to wait and see if this is off the back of a decent league campaign or something more. Morton lost six figure sums in both of the last two seasons despite big Old Firm Cup ties away from home. Queen's Park are burning through the multi-million proceeds of selling the national stadium. Ayr United have been underwritten by various benefactors in recent seasons. Inverness lost over £800k last year and is relying on land redevelopment projects to remain viable. Dunfermline has lost the best part of £1 million in the last two seasons. Arbroath are a part-time football team. Cove Rangers are a part-time team and got relegated. Airdrieonians are half a million pounds in debt. Hamilton had a massive cash legacy from a youth set-up and squandered it on Nigerian Princes. And got relegated. All of these teams in the 2nd tier this year or last. Which of these teams do you suggest we emulate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 Just watched the goals again (I don't know why I do it to myself) First one Fitzpatrick gets shown up by McAllister. That is quite an achievement Second one I don't know what Bannigan is marking he just seems to be guarding the corner of the box. McInroy doesn't follow his runner. Third one. Muirhead just lets his man run off him and Stewart has had a flap at a ball he's never getting Fourth one. Milne plays a fairless aimless pass infield when he could have sent it down the line and asked Ayr to defend it. McBeth stands on the ball, Neilson backs off too far and then Stewart has a wee lie down. Apart from McBeth standing on the ball I think I've seen these all before. McBeth and perhaps Neilson have an excuse as they are relatively inexperienced but all the others making mistakes are experienced pro's Last season Fitzpatrick looked a much better player playing in a 4-4-2 with Holt playing as an orthodox leftback. I'm not convinced the combination of Milne and Fitzpatrick works. Bannigan is after a wee purple patch reverting to his norm. Muirhead is really out of form. McInroy has ability but to me looks not fully committed. I think we really need to solidify the team so I think we should be looking at something like this for United Mitchell McMillan-Williams-Neilson-Milne Lawless-McBeth-Robinson-Ngwenya Graham-Fitzpatrick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: For the most part, they run losses underwritten by soft loans, other forms of debt, or regular investment from benefactors. Dundee lost over £800k in 2021-22 and posted substantial six-figure losses last season too. Dundee United have consistently posted seven figure losses in recent seasons. Raith Rovers saw heavy reliance on benefactors in recent seasons, and only made profits when on good cup runs. Their new investors say they have drastically improved their position. We shall have to wait and see if this is off the back of a decent league campaign or something more. Morton lost six figure sums in both of the last two seasons despite big Old Firm Cup ties away from home. Queen's Park are burning through the multi-million proceeds of selling the national stadium. Ayr United have been underwritten by various benefactors in recent seasons. Inverness lost over £800k last year and is relying on land redevelopment projects to remain viable. Dunfermline has lost the best part of £1 million in the last two seasons. Arbroath are a part-time football team. Cove Rangers are a part-time team and got relegated. Airdrieonians are half a million pounds in debt. Hamilton had a massive cash legacy from a youth set-up and squandered it on Nigerian Princes. And got relegated. All of these teams in the 2nd tier this year or last. Which of these teams do you suggest we emulate? Well given we averaged £300k losses each Season and are forecasting £150k loss this Season we are obviously not exactly a bastion of Financial Competence and the £150k is masked by the TJF funding or it would be £300k ( again) Ok - if it was me - and it was my Business - I would make the cuts to fund getting in a New Manager -rather than going for another inexperienced “ legend” like Brian Graham The manager is the most important decision a Club takes you cannot base it on “ availability” and its the cheap option And so we are clear - I have not called for Dools sacking - Ive asked Norge Thistle at what point do you replace the Manager and by what measure and at what point do you replace Directors and by what measure ? And dont ask what cuts - Im not going to name who I would cut on a public forum But there are cuts you can make to Non Core Functions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 10 minutes ago, laukat said: Just watched the goals again (I don't know why I do it to myself) First one Fitzpatrick gets shown up by McAllister. That is quite an achievement Second one I don't know what Bannigan is marking he just seems to be guarding the corner of the box. McInroy doesn't follow his runner. Third one. Muirhead just lets his man run off him and Stewart has had a flap at a ball he's never getting Fourth one. Milne plays a fairless aimless pass infield when he could have sent it down the line and asked Ayr to defend it. McBeth stands on the ball, Neilson backs off too far and then Stewart has a wee lie down. Apart from McBeth standing on the ball I think I've seen these all before. McBeth and perhaps Neilson have an excuse as they are relatively inexperienced but all the others making mistakes are experienced pro's Last season Fitzpatrick looked a much better player playing in a 4-4-2 with Holt playing as an orthodox leftback. I'm not convinced the combination of Milne and Fitzpatrick works. Bannigan is after a wee purple patch reverting to his norm. Muirhead is really out of form. McInroy has ability but to me looks not fully committed. I think we really need to solidify the team so I think we should be looking at something like this for United Mitchell McMillan-Williams-Neilson-Milne Lawless-McBeth-Robinson-Ngwenya Graham-Fitzpatrick So despite what our friend Lenzie Jag is trying to make out - its not the signing of Mcbeth thats the reason for us losing goals ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Well that Strategy has been set by the Board - our previous Manager got a Target of Promotion by the JLo Board ( we have no idea how realistic it was - or the conditions surrounding it ) he was sacked because the New Board felt that the target was not going to be met- last February Soo the same Board have Set Dools a Target of 3rd Pace - they therefore have to apply the same consistency they measured ( & fired ) the previous Manager on - they have set the Modus Operandi - and by extension - they need to apply the same logic to there own positions The Figure Set by the Jlo Board was Promotion outright ( win the league ) - now given the resources of Dundee & QP at the time - that would seem highly ambitious - now even more bizarre is the fact the replacement Board ( whilst finding carcrashes all over the place in finances etc ) uniquely took this Promotion Target by the previous Board - as 100 % accurate & deliverable - few weeks into the Job - sacked the Manager as they did not believe he would achieve it Sooo - the current Board have to apply the same standards -otherwise people will conclude it was more than just results for sacking the previous Manager Yes - what your saying is correct - its a ridiculous strategy - but Hey Ho- that's the rules they made up so they can follow them Ah okay, I thought you were suggesting it’s how the strategy SHOULD be. So…..how would you change the ridiculous strategy? Replace the board and keep the manager? We can’t keep going on that kind of cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 48 minutes ago, Jag36 said: Agree he needs a defensive minded coach. Been in this movie before when Archie was Manager and he couldn’t get the defence organised . I agree with JJ re fitness, we’ve got players like McKenzie and Stanway who should have no issues re fitness and energy, in my opinion they are our future and Doolan should play them more . Re the 13 goals that we’ve lost in the last 4 games , Dools has got to change the personnel about a bit , possibly go back to a flat back 4 with maybe an extra man in midfield Got to change things around a bit to get back on track Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 4 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So despite what our friend Lenzie Jag is trying to make out - its not the signing of Mcbeth thats the reason for us losing goals ? I can kind of understand the theory that McBeth starting is a factor. He's doing so much defensive work that I think Bannigan and McInroy have almost become lazy defensively. Where McBeth is someway behind Docherty is he doesn't have the experience to feel confident about ordering players into position or b@llicking those not doing their job during a game. Add to that he's started 3 games and we've conceded 3 goals in each and you can see why there might be a case. However if we are rebuilding for next season he's either the type we should be building about or he's another swing and a miss on the recruitment front. So we either put a team and formation around him or drop him to return to our lightweight midfield trio that looked at best poor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Well given we averaged £300k losses each Season and are forecasting £150k loss this Season we are obviously not exactly a bastion of Financial Competence and the £150k is masked by the TJF funding or it would be £300k ( again) Ok - if it was me - and it was my Business - I would make the cuts to fund getting in a New Manager -rather than going for another inexperienced “ legend” like Brian Graham The manager is the most important decision a Club takes you cannot base it on “ availability” and its the cheap option And so we are clear - I have not called for Dools sacking - Ive asked Norge Thistle at what point do you replace the Manager and by what measure and at what point do you replace Directors and by what measure ? And dont ask what cuts - Im not going to name who I would cut on a public forum But there are cuts you can make to Non Core Functions “Experienced manager” often means “retread” in this league. We all complain about wage thieves in our midst on the players’ side; would hate to repeat same with a manager. We’ve referenced the “insanity same thing expecting different results” thing ad nauseam, and it’s the same with the same old cast of managers that never go anywhere. Dools may have been the cost effective, crowd-pleasing choice, but I think there’s a decent manager in there. I think realistically you give a manager 2 seasons to display a level of competence. 1 if it’s just so horrifically bad. But then you need a savvy board with the right metrics (not always W’s and L’s) to make that call. If I were on our board, I’d be reaching out to as many other boards as I could if I was deficient in that area to inquire how they went about assessing the manager. Replacing directors should be whole separate thread. 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, ChiThistle said: Ah okay, I thought you were suggesting it’s how the strategy SHOULD be. So…..how would you change the ridiculous strategy? Replace the board and keep the manager? We can’t keep going on that kind of cycle. Well we start with replacing Directors who started this Strategy in the first place You then decide medium and long term objectives for both the Football Manager & The board directors with KPIs that you can measure progress on You look at your structure and weaknesses Here is something that is worth noting - Ian McCall indicated he would be interested in a Director of Football Role during discussions after Dools replaced him - bearing in mind we were paying him anyway - it was made clear that McCall ( despite his strengths in recruitment - contacts and experience would get no where near PTFC ) also that any future Director of Football would also have a Key Role in the Woman's Team So instead we let a Rookie Manager Flounder with No Support That fact alone in my view is a sacking offence for the Board Directors who rejected the idea We are floundering about with zero plan or direction - Dools is struggling but the Board are throwing him under a Bus whatever people thought of Gerry B - he was at least an experienced Football Guy - who has Dools got ? we are a shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: we are a shambles I agree with a lot of your points about KPIs and how Dools appears to be left a bit in the lurch - it’s all a very tall ask for a first time manager. I would agree that we are some level of shambolic, but I think we are much less shambolic than we were when we almost couldn’t keep the lights on. I don't think this ever was going to be a quick fix, and there are aspects of the club that, to use a tired business adage, operate as if we are flying the plane while building it. I think that was somewhat unavoidable though. There’s a lot of contention about the last shareholder meeting. Is there a publicly available recording of that? Or is that only for publicly traded companies? And, um, how much do shares of PTFC go for these days?? 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 7 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So as previously stated the options are a) Stick with Dools no matter what b) or appoint another "Legend" with zero management experience How come other Championship Teams manage to sack Managers and not have to appiont inexperienced "legends" ? Are there finances so much better than Thistles ? Maybe the Manager isn't the Core Problem ? The option is give him a bit of time, like McCall was given, even after a relegation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 9 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So despite what our friend Lenzie Jag is trying to make out - its not the signing of Mcbeth thats the reason for us losing goals ? Again, you haven’t read what I said. We had a problem up to October when we were losing a lot of goals. That was largely fixed between November and February apart from a couple of games vs Raith and Dundee Utd. So, he tried to do something that he thought would get us closer to Dundee Utd and Raith Rovers. That ship has sailed. We have now lost 2 games in a row, something we hadn’t done this season, lost to 2 more teams we hadn’t done this season. Why shouldn’t he try going back to what had us safely in 3rd spot ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 8 hours ago, laukat said: I can kind of understand the theory that McBeth starting is a factor. He's doing so much defensive work that I think Bannigan and McInroy have almost become lazy defensively. Where McBeth is someway behind Docherty is he doesn't have the experience to feel confident about ordering players into position or b@llicking those not doing their job during a game. Add to that he's started 3 games and we've conceded 3 goals in each and you can see why there might be a case. However if we are rebuilding for next season he's either the type we should be building about or he's another swing and a miss on the recruitment front. So we either put a team and formation around him or drop him to return to our lightweight midfield trio that looked at best poor You get my logic. That lightweight poor midfield was getting results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannygaruk Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 15 hours ago, Lenziejag said: Analysing our defensive performances recently I think the common denominator unfortunately has been Luke McBeth. He wasn’t playing in the Livingston game but the error Doolan made there was the subs made right after the 2nd goal. Prior to that we had played 5 games in 2024 and only conceded 4 goals. It seems to me that the two changes to make for Saturday are the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a f kincaid Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 11 hours ago, Norgethistle said: Jim we are trying to build up cash reserves of which we had none. We may have money but none available to spend. Cash income isn’t steady over the season it’s front end loaded (Season tickets and sponsorship) and tail end loaded (prize money). Our outgoings though are continual, and we can get unexpected hits to this via postponements due to weather etc, or game’s getting moved to Fridays to suit TV (which we get nothing extra for except less hospitality and less walk up fans especially away fans). The building of reserves builds us a safety net for the peaks and troughs of income vs expenditure. Interesting point about BBC TV coverage Norgethistle. Is it correct clubs don't get anything for being televised? Seems strange any club would have agreed to that given that it only results in less income overall. Can clubs "refuse" to be selected? BBC must be pleased with the outcome. There have been some decent matches this season - ironically including Thistle's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannygaruk Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 After losing Turner, Holt, Docherty and Tiffany, our core vest players by a country mile i thought mid table was the best we could wish for. We had no money got told how we were literally going out of business if it wasn't for the Rangers game. I was amazed we could sign anyone pre season so anything was a bonus. Let's just take some humble pie here we are scoring goals for fun and keeping ourselves in a play off position. We are shipping goals and we can't get Oreily onto the pitch as he is injured. Reading the posts about sacking the board and the manager is delusional. Neither of them are responsible for the fact that Neilson in all the goals I watched back is just not a defender but more a footballer. The Livingston game was horrific defending. I'd happily give Williams a shot but I'm worried we would still ship 3. It is what it is at the moment we are still in 3rd and we are still ahead. We were never going to challenge fir the league and the fact we created a big buffer in 3rd was a credit to the attacking play and goals as all teams are going to go through poor spells. Wait till the end of the season before any changes ridiculous to suggest them now when in.my opinion we are in a miracle 3rd considering our goals against. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 Our defensive options are very very limited … we have 7 in the squad but o’reilly is injured and clearly Williams and ngwenya are not rated…. poor recruitment and squad building are to blame but luckily no one is responsible for any of that same back 4 on Saturday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanieD Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 To play devil’s advocate I am beginning to wonder if we actually over-performed in the first half of the season and we are now reaching a more realistic level. Given that we lost our better players in the close season and replaced them as best we could within budget, perhaps getting a playoff spot was at the higher end of expectations for the season and our top 4 position up ‘til now is actually false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 16 hours ago, eljaggo said: Given that the defensive set up is at the heart of our problems, would it not be possible for Doolan to get some advice and help from an experienced retired manager/player. I agree with those arguing that it is too soon to judge him, but the man is inexperienced and needs help. 13 hours ago, Jag36 said: Agree he needs a defensive minded coach. Doolan like most young managers won't be slow in asking advice from the experienced. I recollect he more or less said so. Also saying he's not got a shortage of appropriate contacts. That said both comments above are more than relevant. I'm thinking it's not just defensive coaching we need but also someone to play bad cop to Doolan's good cop. I look at some other relatively inexperienced managers in the division. Imrie, Scott Brown, Duncan F & McPake all have something in common Kris lacks. Throw in Jim Goodwin for good measure and there's five that I'm sure will be able to play the role of bad cop with ease. For balance we require some hard to please, greeting face bugger, who'll not be the least bit slow to get his message across from the dugout. As long as Mr Bad Cop knows his stuff from a defensive point of view. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 On the merits of the transfer dealings, firstly I don't buy that McCall was some sort of genius. He got some absolute duds as well as some decent and some average players. On the whole, pretty average. I think that Doolan has been a bit unlucky. Alston, McInroy and Robinson all looked good on paper and have played at a higher level, so should have been better than they have been. For some reason it hasn't worked out at Thistle and we have a long history of players who were good elsewhere, before and after their time with us (and equally some who were great for us, but failed elsewhere). Ngwenya and Adeloyi both looked to be decent signings, and nobody was sad to see Dowds leave. That said, the gaffer needs to do better next summer as we always looked to be very light weight at the back, and this must be addressed. But the biggest difference between McCall and Doolan is hope. Under McCall, you always thought this was as good as it was going to get. With Doolan he has time to learn from and rectify his mistakes and I still think that he has the nous to get us to the Premier League, maybe not this season, but a good shot at it next. That said, he needs to do something to halt this horrific run, and I'm not sure he has too many options other than changing the keeper. McBeth is an interesting one. I don't think he has played that bad, but maybe his role disrupts the midfield. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 17 hours ago, Lenziejag said: I don’t think I should. From November until the Livingston game we had lost more than 1 goal in a game only 3 times out of 13 games. Since McBeths introduction it’s 3 times in 3 games. You can’t ignore the facts. Take your point. I'll turn it on its head if only to try to be positive. These last three games we've scored 9 goals. The expected downside when bringing in a defensive mid is that we'd drop off attack wise. I doubt many of us are anything but pleased with our scoring rate and also very few didn't recognise that we were weak defensively in midfield. Doolan conceded that much. I wasn't at Inverness so I've only see McBeth start the last two games plus a couple of cameo appearances. I've actually thought he's been decent but that's of course ignoring the facts. I can't argue with that tho' I can point out that a weakness at losing goals from set pieces is a largely a collective failing and not any more or less the fault of a defensive midfielder. Just a feeling but I reckon basic teamwork is more the problem than individual failings if you exclude the goalkeeping. Gotta get that sorted before we can really judge McBeth, who I sense isn't going to be a major part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 I’d rather win 1-0 than lose 4-3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 15 hours ago, Norgethistle said: I’m not sure where the several hundreds of thousands comes from. We got around £200k against Rangers because Ibrox was full and game was on TV. Parkhead is rarely half full for cup games against lower league opposition and game may not have been selected for TV. Yes it cost us money, but all managers make mistakes or get outfoxed by opposition managers which makes their decision the wrong one. Sacking a manager every time they made a decision would have teams changing managers fortnightly. He got it spot on against County, did we offer him a rise? We can’t go calling for his head in one cup game as decisions cost us money, where the previous cup game his decisions made us money. I’ve never at any point called for him to be sacked. It’s still okay to be infuriated at several of the mistakes he has made, some financially costly without calling for him to be sacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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