What Would Make You Consider A Yes Vote For Newco

[Trotter]

Dual contracts, EBTs, non payment of football debts as well as non payment to HMRC running into millions so 32p in the £1 definitely not the difference in 'sporting integrity'.

 

The season ticket % and the club possibly dying in 5 years if changes not made? Well that argument could probably be made for the vast majority of clubs in senior football.

 

Since Rinus Michels SFA think tank (was that Ernie Walker that set up?) to Henry McLeish's review of Scottish football, recommendations have been put forward but most of them have got nowhere due to greed of certain clubs, 11-1 voting set ups and the rest.

 

One club goes bust and these recommendations are suddenly dusted down by certain folk & quoted to us.

 

Livi, Gretna, & Airdrie have suffered same fate as RFC in recent years (or close to it in Livi's case) but who came riding to their rescue within the game?

 

Vote newco RFC into SFL1 and yes they go up in a season. SPL make sure money drips down for a few seasons then decides to renegotiate TV deal & money to SFL. What have the SFL achieved? Play offs.

 

A new SPL2 is set up & we join? Well we're no better than RFC as far as sporting integrity goes IMO as we're telling rest of Scottish Football League to sod off whilst they are seeing a window of opportunity for change to be implemented for the good of the game & all the teams.

 

Celtic fans don't care about the sporting integrity bit, they just want maximum punishment for RFC/Newco. However the rest of Scottish football fans sense the opportunity to change things. Make it happen. There never will be a better opportunity to put green shoots into our dying game.

[Davie Thistle]

Am I the only one that doesnt fancy the Playoffs at all? We should have a straight 2 up and 2 down rule. If there is still a desire for a playoff game, let 3rd play 3rd bottom over two legs. Why is 2 up / 2 down not the absolute minimum that is being demanded / discussed?

 

2 up 2 down seems the absolute minimum to me..

[Jordanhill Jag]

If it was any other club they would be dead by now. The Sky TV deal should never have been negotiated to have any kind of guaranteed OF game clause in it. Thats just shitty business practice, what wouldve happened if Zombie Rangers had magically survived but got relegated ?

 

The game in Scotland is nearly dead due to 2 large clubs dominating the game and taking 90% of the cash out of it. This has been made worse by the creation of th SPL where it is set up to ensure they get all the cash that comes into the game.

 

We have to find a way to share the income out but we need to retain our principles. I dont buy the they are only different coz they never got a CVA line , they cheated the game for 10+ years via illegal use of EBTs allowing them to buy players they would otherwise be unable to afford - could be argued that they cost Thistle a Scottish Cup final place. The scenarios of both clubs financial issues are so far apart as to be not fit to compare IMO.

 

If we were being forced by the SFA to allow them into SFL1 then

 

- 16 team SPL from 2013/14

- 2nd tier of 16 teams as well

- Regionalisation below this

- Fairer dispersion of central income to all clubs , including any lower leagues

- Dongcaster gets kicked out on his arse for being a completely useless administrator

- Central funding from SFA to cover all clubs youth setups

 

The current proposal does nothing to address any long term concerns that fans have for the game, all it does is guarantee fans are pissed off due to the lack of punishment towards Zombie Rangers for a decade long abuse of the system.

 

Lets be realistic Rangers or SEVCO Fans can huff and puff but they are a busted flush - a future joke Club ,most Rangers fans would prefer SFL 3 - only Sky and Mr Green want SFL 1.

 

Your arguement on comparision on the scale of cheating is accepted but we cheated suppliers out of cash ,big cheat ,wee cheat it doesnt give us the moral higher ground.

 

We go into the meeting declaring a No vote upfront we get zero ,by the same token we declare our hand in the press that we are for it we get very little - so you need to know what it is you want from a negotiation.

 

You make peace with your enemies ,not your friends.

[Jordanhill Jag]

Dual contracts, EBTs, non payment of football debts as well as non payment to HMRC running into millions so 32p in the £1 definitely not the difference in 'sporting integrity'.

 

The season ticket % and the club possibly dying in 5 years if changes not made? Well that argument could probably be made for the vast majority of clubs in senior football.

 

Since Rinus Michels SFA think tank (was that Ernie Walker that set up?) to Henry McLeish's review of Scottish football, recommendations have been put forward but most of them have got nowhere due to greed of certain clubs, 11-1 voting set ups and the rest.

 

One club goes bust and these recommendations are suddenly dusted down by certain folk & quoted to us.

 

Livi, Gretna, & Airdrie have suffered same fate as RFC in recent years (or close to it in Livi's case) but who came riding to their rescue within the game?

 

Vote newco RFC into SFL1 and yes they go up in a season. SPL make sure money drips down for a few seasons then decides to renegotiate TV deal & money to SFL. What have the SFL achieved? Play offs.

 

A new SPL2 is set up & we join? Well we're no better than RFC as far as sporting integrity goes IMO as we're telling rest of Scottish Football League to sod off whilst they are seeing a window of opportunity for change to be implemented for the good of the game & all the teams.

 

Celtic fans don't care about the sporting integrity bit, they just want maximum punishment for RFC/Newco. However the rest of Scottish football fans sense the opportunity to change things. Make it happen. There never will be a better opportunity to put green shoots into our dying game.

 

We are a proffessional sport with no cash ,take out the Sky money and its done - PTFC dont het play offs we dont replace the 25% of over 65 fans in five years - I agree with you regards the culture BUT we vote no upfront we dont have a place at the table

[Craig-W]

Sorry it this is contradictory or repetitious, but 16 team leagues, play each other twice a season - to avoid the mind-numbing boredom of the current situation. Yes it was similar in the past, and apparently people became sick of it - but I can't think it can be worse than the current way of things. I don't want to watch Falkirk or Stirling or Queens or Hamilton four, five, six times a year - and I'm sure they don't want to see us likewise.

 

And hey, if we're going into cloud cuckoo land: Scottish football adopts the American style of profit sharing: every team gets an equal share of it all. For every shirt and piece of merchandise and ticket sold, every team gets an equal share.

 

Excitement and equality should be the rule. Anybody watch Spain versus Portugal? Was that as fun as an average division one game? The talent may have been better but the entertainment wasn't. There are so many ways we can improve our game, for the level Scotland is currently at, but it just wont happen - pessimism yes; cynicism yes - but we can't all dream?

[javeajag]

Once upon a time .... No **** it .... Div 3 and then while that happens agree sensible changes bigger spl, spl 2 , play offs etc no blackmail !!

 

No they submitted third paperwork an our ago so still to be approved

The SFA appeal tribunal still to resit

The meeting on July 4

Then SFL meeting

Time for big tax case judgement

 

And while this goes on let's re organise Scottish football , what a laugh

 

Sevco in div 3 will be exactly the catalys for change the game needs!

[Jordanhill Jag]

Jim, there are two parts to this as I see it. Firstly The Team Formerly Known As Rangers (TTFKAR) have created problems on a much larger scale than the Save the Jags situation. Indeed, I don't believe that the two situations are comparable. Where their new incarnation ends up well frankly I could not give a hoot. As I have said in another place, however, what is deeply worrying is that the real agenda in all this, and the real problem that has to be addressed, is that the intention is to have a return to Normality as soon as possible, ie. Rangers in the SPL competing for Championships, being involved in Europe and, most of all, putting one over their ugly Green Cousins.

 

And that is where the real problem lies.

 

After "Normal" service has been resumed nothing will have changed. Nothing. It will be the same set up. The same failed model waiting to fail again. Yes, there may be a little tinkering around the edges, Play-offs, some regionalisation of lower leagues, a wee bit extra money falling from the rich man's table. But nothing will have changed. Scottish football will still be about which one of the Ugly Cousins wins the league/ gets into Europe blah-blah-blah !

 

For years I have talked about changing to a NFL type set-up where there are six/eight divisions each with four teams, set up on a regional basis (to encourage a degree of healthy rivalry) with balanced schedules (so that its not just canon odder games for the so-called big units) and inter-divisional games (so that you can still have a hate fest between Aberdeen and .... well everyone else). You would then have play-offs (real ones!) at the end of the season to decide who wins the overall championship - The Hawfandhawf Bowl

 

At very least you would have six/eight divisional titles to play for. You might even have, for example, Celtic with (12 wins) on the final day of the regular season away to Hearts and Thistle (in the same division, also on 12 wins) at home to Clyde. Betcha that would put more than 2000 bums on seats in the JHS.

 

But there is your problem. That situation, where a member of the OF might fail to win through to the play-offs, is unacceptable. Yes, they will say it's "too American" when actually what they really mean is it's too risky. In Scottish Football they do not want the excitement of "Anything can happen on any given Sunday". They want Saturday Afternoon predictability. They want Normal. And that's why the game is in decline, not just at Thistle, but all over the country. And unless we have Real Radical Solutions then quite soon we will be left with the perfect Scottish Football Season.

 

Celtic Vs TTFKAR (x38) all broadcast live on SKY.

 

So this is not about TTFKAR. This has to be about real change because those who fail to evolve will find themselves up the same cul-de-sac as the Neanderthals and the dodos.

 

SEVCO disappear you have one dominate Club so nothing changes - we need to screw the ******** and make them bleed if they want there cosy wee hate relationship back - its about Sky nothing more nothing less

[Jordanhill Jag]

Once upon a time .... No **** it .... Div 3 and then while that happens agree sensible changes bigger spl, spl 2 , play offs etc no blackmail !!

 

No they submitted third paperwork an our ago so still to be approved

The SFA appeal tribunal still to resit

The meeting on July 4

Then SFL meeting

Time for big tax case judgement

 

And while this goes on let's re organise Scottish football , what a laugh

 

Sevco in div 3 will be exactly the catalys for change the game needs!

 

Sky have given the SPL one year without Rangers after that they bugger of - this is it we either screw the **** out of the opportunity as we have the SPL by the balls or we continue as is -we dont get two bites at it.

[Lindau]

we vote no upfront we dont have a place at the table

 

and what if all SFL clubs vote NO with the exception of Cowdenbeath. Lets face it, its not beyond the realms of possibility given the ill feeling out there. If all the SFL clubs stick together, what exactly are they going to do. Time to turn the tables on this corrupt organisation

[Lindau]

Sky have given the SPL one year without Rangers

and you have that in writing, cause I aint seen or heard that anywhere. Sure its been put out there as scaremongering by twats like Traynor and Young but there has never been a comment or anything in writing from Sky....unless you can prove otherwise!

Edited June 29, 2012 by Lindau

[Jordanhill Jag]

If you throw away sporting integrity you will kill the club. Our place will be simply a bunch a patsies to be gone over regularly to keep the fans of the Old Firm happy with regular 3-0 and 5-0 thrashings. We might as well be playing against the Harlem Globetrotters. We'd like to pretend that one day we'll get promoted, qualify for Europe and win the league -just the once you know. But no, our place is to be the Christians in the Colosseum of the Old Firm.

 

I don't understand why helping our biggest competitor to regain a dominant position is in our interest long term interest. In the long term it would be very much in our interest to break-up the Old Firm rather offering business as usual as soon as possible.

 

So not only is this proposal just burning up the rule book, it is not even clearly in our short-term financial interest.

 

We also have to look at how these rules got in place in the first place. By the old firm duopoly threatening everyone else from a position of strength!!! For how many years would these new rules last before we were threatened or bribed into changing back to 11-1 voting structures, 1-up/1-down with no play-offs, etc.

 

The new proposal offers a few short term gifts in order to restore the power to the 2 powerful clubs. Why else do you think we are being offered it? It is certainly not in a spirit of contrition.

 

So, nothing, repeat nothing, will justify giving Rangers a privileged position.

 

Of course not but four weeks ago the status quo was firmly embedded - now the SPL are shitting themselves - Fans are booting them one way Sky the other ,the SFL have the power to make change,I asked what we would consider - if its nothing fair enough but answer me this Chris - how do I get 12 - 16 Yr Olds interested in meaningless Div 1 games- we have 5 years after that its over.

[Jordanhill Jag]

and you have that in writing, cause I aint seen or heard that anywhere. Sure its been put out there as scaremongering but there has never been a comment or anything in writing from Sky....unless you can prove otherwise!

 

No but I was given this information by an Official at PTFC - you only have my word on it mate ,nothing more.

[Lindau]

No but I was given this information by an Official at PTFC - you only have my word on it mate ,nothing more.

 

Can I ask what money we got from Sky last season?

[Junior]

Lets be realistic Rangers or SEVCO Fans can huff and puff but they are a busted flush - a future joke Club ,most Rangers fans would prefer SFL 3 - only Sky and Mr Green want SFL 1.

 

Your arguement on comparision on the scale of cheating is accepted but we cheated suppliers out of cash ,big cheat ,wee cheat it doesnt give us the moral higher ground.

 

We go into the meeting declaring a No vote upfront we get zero ,by the same token we declare our hand in the press that we are for it we get very little - so you need to know what it is you want from a negotiation.

 

You make peace with your enemies ,not your friends.

 

Do we want to be the only club that isnt speaking out against this though ? Thats the big question for me.That IMO will harm us more than keeping quiet.

 

We have to speak out and speak out soon, there are other clubs similar in stature to us who have done this, some of them arguably bigger than us who understand the fans concerns that this is one almighty stitch up with the SFL being left to carry out the mercy killing on behalf of the SPL who have proven they do not have the balls to do it.

 

Who is the enemy though ? IMO the enemy is not Zombie Rangers its the SPL and those others that control our game who seek to manipulate/create the rules when it suits them and their current plans are not to the benefit of any clubs. They have managed the impossible and united all 41 clubs and Zombie Rangers as one against them.

 

Leagues should be left as they are this year , newco applies to SFL3 and then we look to do a proper reasoned reconstruction at the end of next season.

[JAG1970]

JJ, what is to stop the OF/SPL going back to the old voting structure / league structure within a couple of seasons? They will inevitably revert to type and protect themselves and continue to screw clubs like us? So in the long term were dead anyway?

[Jordanhill Jag]

In a word, Jim, nothing. We're not unaware of the financial realities facing the club and the whole game. We've all known it for years and flapped around trying to improve things, with no help at all from the football authorities who had produced a rotten sport in Scotland even before Rangers made it ten times worse. So they should fix it now, just like they could and should have tried to fix it years ago. Bundling it all up in a package deal to save newco is bullshit of the highest order and nobody's buying it. It's an insult to the intelligence. Nice marketing tactic, let's see how that works out.

 

The vote will happen and whatever way it goes, the fans will make or break the club. For me, I'll either make a greater effort to get along to games this season or I'll kiss goodye to this farce forever. I know many others will dig in and help keep things afloat and the very best of luck to them. But don't let the club try to sell us this garbage and expect people to shrug and carry on like nothing will have changed because everything will have changed.

 

And for all our many failings over the years, I don't think there's a club in Scotland that doesn't have the moral high ground over Rangers. That being said, I wouldn't give an ounce of support, moral or financial, to a board behaving the way ours is behaving at the moment.

 

I dont disagree and for many the principle is utmost which I respect ,we need younger fans - integrity isnt big with modern teenagers - the buzz of a play off ,larger crowds ,better atmosphere , young guys singing in the JHS - FFS singing in the JHS - I would sell my Granny to hear the JHS singing again ,honest to God Greig Im sick of failure - the Blazers can fawn over visiting Directors or Hospitality and pretend we are a Football Club - I couldnt care less - I want a stadium full of Kids, Teenagers singing Jags Songs and a big banner in the New Shed when the OF come visiting say YOUR NOT THE OPPONENTS - YOUR THE ENEMY for this Im willing to ditch principles.

 

Nice to see the Blog back and a bit of anger - missed it mate

[ClydebankJag]

Rangers and PTFC are different for one single reason

 

LIQUIDATION!!!!

 

Is it so hard to understand, even for those people sympathetic to Rangers, that they were liquidated? Therefore in line with every other club in Scottish football history that has been liquidated the best they can ask is to enter the league at the bottom level.

 

btw no team has ever been liquidated and allowed straight back in, but now we discuss boosting Rangers up to Div 1? **** right off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Trotter]

We are a proffessional sport with no cash ,take out the Sky money and its done - PTFC dont het play offs we dont replace the 25% of over 65 fans in five years - I agree with you regards the culture BUT we vote no upfront we dont have a place at the table

 

The SKY money is the biggest problem up here (aside from our Glasgow neighbours). We're either trying to keep with the game down South or get a fat pay cheque but that's gone. Sky money isn't a lot- better than nothing I know but...

 

Celtic can't attract ROI internationals such as Keith Andrews (who?) to the club now where less than 5 years ago they'd have walked across the border.

 

Rangers chased the dream, illegally as we now know, and banged on about Sporting Integrity when Marseille put them out the Champions League in the early 90s.

 

The rest had their teams plundered from the mid 80s onwards as soon as they got anywhere near the other 2, esp after Souness/Murray/Ferguson McCann etc came to the table.

 

Tough question I know as hypothetical but a few years back when the other Glasgow 2 were looking for escape routes down South to chase the money or a North Atlantic league, would Scottish Football have survived? The answer is more than likely yes- in some form.

 

So we come to a scenario where one is teetering and the other won't say a word as they know their present income comes with them being known as a pair (insert own pun here).

 

Time for the rest of Scottish football to fight back. We've got one on the ropes, don't let them off it. Sky walk away, big deal. The others have sensed a window of opportunity to make things better/ negotiate a better future for themselves (better than what's on offer just now). Why not us? Like I said every other club in Scotland in same situation.

 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

Can I ask what money we got from Sky last season?

 

Its about £30 K from memory - havent been on the Board for a wee while so thats the last figure I have

[Barney Rubble]

Sky can take a hike, then.

 

The member clubs should dictate what happens, not some media corporation who may not themselves exist in 5 years if due process finds their parent company guilty of numerous allegations that are already high profile in the public domain.

 

What did alarm me JJ, were your stats on ST holders - 50% over 50 and 25% over 65.

 

My assumption is these are based on last season's figures? So, how many ST holders were there last season?

 

And for the avoidance of any doubt - nothing would make me accept newco which does not conform to the existing standard procedure for accepting a new member into the SFL structure.

[lennythistle]

Same rules apply to them as the rest of us. If that ain't going to happen, game is dead. I'll consider nothing to allow them to play in div 1. Where do you draw the line Jim. We bow down now, we'll forever be bending over and taking it up the backside every time something goes wrong with those two. The monsters are bad enough...you want to add a few more heads and poisionous tales to them?

 

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!

[Lindau]

Its about £30 K from memory - havent been on the Board for a wee while so thats the last figure I have

 

and what will we get this season

 

1) without NEWCO

 

2) with NEWCO

[Fellow Traveller]

This must be what the coalition talks were like.

 

"We've got these Tories where we want them. This is a once in a lifetime chance to get in there to change things before evil is restored."

 

"Great idea, Nick. Where do we sign up?"

[Jordanhill Jag]

and what will we get this season

 

1) without NEWCO

 

2) with NEWCO

 

Various figures being talked up in press but from what I can gather £100 K minimium - this is not an official figure I hasten to add

[Jordanhill Jag]

Sky can take a hike, then.

 

The member clubs should dictate what happens, not some media corporation who may not themselves exist in 5 years if due process finds their parent company guilty of numerous allegations that are already high profile in the public domain.

 

What did alarm me JJ, were your stats on ST holders - 50% over 50 and 25% over 65.

 

My assumption is these are based on last season's figures? So, how many ST holders were there last season?

 

And for the avoidance of any doubt - nothing would make me accept newco which does not conform to the existing standard procedure for accepting a new member into the SFL structure.

 

About 800 I think -Yes based on last year.

 

TV money keeps Football afloat - you either dance with the devil or cut your cloth