What Would Make You Consider A Yes Vote For Newco

[Julie Ann]

What was the point of the 2nd statement on the official site where it stated,

 

"Working closely with the onethistle group, we would make use of every avenue open to us to seek the views of, and canvas opinion from, our supporters to help us better formulate a position that promotes the best interests of Partick Thistle Football Club and Scottish Football as a whole.

 

When will the vote take place for these changes? And when will the supporters mentioned in the statement get a chance to put our views across so that the club can canvas opinion on this matter?

 

this thread is it i suspect

[1 John Lambie]

 

 

Based on previous stats of Games we promoted crowds increased when there was the perception of something to play for or an event - in general kids numbers doubled for event based games if we sre chasing a playoff crowds have a chance to increase - we need to double the 12 - 20 age group in the next three years to offset fall of in the older fans - that is the basis of my reason to sell out for a lay off spot

 

I fully understand that viewpoint Jim & agree that younger fans are required but are you factoring in the many fans (young & old) that we will lose by voting yes to newco?

[Willjag]

 

 

"Working closely with the onethistle group, we would make use of every avenue open to us to seek the views of, and canvas opinion from, our supporters to help us better formulate a position that promotes the best interests of Partick Thistle Football Club and Scottish Football as a whole.

 

When will the vote take place for these changes? And when will the supporters mentioned in the statement get a chance to put our views across so that the club can canvas opinion on this matter?

Good point 1JL. How does the Club intend to canvas the opinions of the support? Is this website just the view of the militant support. Are the ones that don't say anything or don't email the Club the ones that have no objection to Newco? At the very least I would hope the Club would use it's email base to canvas opinions of the support.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I fully understand that viewpoint Jim & agree that younger fans are required but are you factoring in the many fans (young & old) that we will lose by voting yes to newco?

My son's just out that age bracket at 21 but he'll chuck it if there's a yes vote. He's only a Jags fan because of me so it's fair to assume that there's very little chance his children will end up Jags fans..

[Steven H]

Sorry, havent managed to read the whole thread (got half way through the 4th page) but if Im understanding you right Jim you are arguing that a play off and some extra scraps from the 'big boys table' will solve all our problems. That, I'm afraid, is absolute rubbish. For me it's a no brainer, Newco MUST apply for the vacancy that MUST arise in SFL3 once the Stranrear Airdrie and Dundee are promoted. Then look at SPFL1 and SPFL2 with invtes if required (although Id prefer places to be earned) from season 2013/14, but only if both leagues have at least 16 teams in them. For my wider thoughts see the League Reconstruction thread.

 

Scottish football cannot sell it's soul for anything never mind the garbage that is currently on the table. I dont think I can be any more serious when I say I'll be finished with Thistle if we endorse these plans, and even typing that causes me pain that can be felt deep in my gut.

 

How do we replace the aging fan base? Dunno, by doing what we intended before all this happened? If this situation hadn't came about, what was the plan for that? Win the league this season and EARN our right to play in the SPL, that's what. By showing Glasgow that there is a team with integrity, with values and with credibility to follow...by each and every one of us being proud to bring our kids up as Thistle fans. I have two 7 year olds who are only now starting to get right into Thistle, every drawing done is coloured in red, yellow and black. Every time one of their wee pals brags about being a Rangers or Celtic they proudly say they aren't as good as Thistle. If this disasterous plan goes ahead that's 2 youngsters gone. I know mates in a similar position with young kids who are still a bit too young to really get it...but in time, they'll get it provided we still have a club to support. Vote these plans through and we will lose fans NOW, and that's what will kill our club imo.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Steven H

[Willjag]

What Would Make You Consider A Yes Vote For Newco

 

Why is this even a question that's being considered? Simple, because of cash. You say that we would benefit financially from Newgers being in the same league as us next season. They'll get to the same league as us eventually anyway. If the money men want it sooner rather than later..... League reconstruction to a 16 team top league and two other smaller divisions would be the answer with two relegation places as standard is the answer. This is what most of the fans want it's only the Club owners that want the best way to get short term cash.

 

I'm an engineer too Jim, and the biggest thing I ever learned was that the obvious and easy way isn't always the best. Sometimes you've got to take a little short term pain for the bigger gain.

[Trotter]

If we have four Clubs in with a shout of a play off its a more attractive product on every level - look st the Championship in England

 

& like the money, after 2/3 years you genuinely think that'll still be there once everything 'back to normal' & TV deal comes up for re negotiation. No chance.

[jaf]

Jim

 

I think you are wrong.

 

The sporing integrity issue is not about an amount of money paid in the £. The scandal is the issuance of dual contracts to dupe those who run the game. There is no punishment severe enough to deal with a scandal of such scale. Please tell me what they could have done that is worse than cheating the regulators by providing them with false documentation?

 

You also say we would become an irrelevance. As you well know this is something I fear for too. However again I feel your premise is entirely wrong. The newco proposal is in effect an effort to preserve the status quo for minimal disruption - you effectively admit this by mentioning the Sky contract. As a Thistle fan, and a fan of Scottish football in general, I want leagues which can be won by multiple teams where TV money does not year on year create a greater divide between the top teams and the rest. Surely the doomsday scenario, tears the infrastructure of Scottish football to the ground and creates a level playing field for the first time in years. Think about it in your bums on seats capacity - maybe, just maybe, people will be enthused and excited and you will get more fans not less. Sure, there will be big casualties in the current SPL teams, and a lot of pain, and budgets will be slashed but why is that a bad thing. Danish teams and Cypriot teams get further than ours in Champions League, and they have neither Newco, Old Firm nor Sky deals.

 

My own view is Rangers should stay in the SPL and the SFL invite applications from SPL teams and divorce themselves from the setllement and SPL, as the SPL and Doncaster are not fit for purpose. Anyone who supports something against the will of 99% of Scottish football fans will similarly be not fit for purpose, and will have to live with the circumstances.

 

The failure of your drives to fill the stands are for a simple reason - the place has become miserable and lost its soul. We both share the views as to why. Bending over and loosening the belt to newco proposal will be the final little bit of soul and character ripped out of the club. So be sure Mr Beattie knows, he would be as well calling Duff & Phelps that very day if he dares to vote for newco.

 

Sandy x

[Fellow Traveller]

If nothing else, this thread has got me seriously worried about turning 50.

[Willjag]

If nothing else, this thread has got me seriously worried about turning 50.

Again???

[stillresigned]

Why don't we just go the whole hog and introduce a levy on our gate receipts to go towards re-establishing the mighty Rangers in the position the media and their fans have become accustomed to?

[Auld Jag]

When this lot were called Rangers they were nothing but trouble and now the newco are just the same.At best they should be starting in the 3rd.Also our media has been shown up for what they are as well,they just suck up to Celtic and newco,where was the mention of TV contracts being ripped up when the 2 of them wanted to chase the EPL £ all the media said it would be the best thing to happen now we cant survive without them and also surely they cant be called the old firm any more.Nobody that has anything to do with PTFC should forget how we were shafted with the double SPL vote,they didnt care how that effected us.

[Jordanhill Jag]

i'm not saying for a second you are wrong in any of your facts. you're clearly closer to things than everyone else so i'd openly accept them all as 100% correct. no doubt none of those facts are presented to chris jack when he comes in for his caramel wafer and cup of tea and chat with the chairman who tells him that everything is rosy. maybe chris could put your facts to the chairman next week when he's in?

 

until two weeks ago i wasn't aware we needed a solution. jackie had pulled together what looked like a squad that would be more than capable of challenging for and maybe even winning the league. i was quite excited for the first time in many seasons. i knew of quite a few people who were too and they were going to buy season tickets for the first time. our chairman and board and even you (!) were telling us all how well we were finally being run, that we were making a profit, just a small one but a profit nonetheless. we had launched an initiative called one thistle that was taking on greater responsibilities. communication with the club and fans was going to be sorted for the better. our club sponsor had come back and we were a truly special club in scotland.

 

and then this ugly scenario appears and everything seems to be torn up and we're facing death at the door. if we don't accept this proposal then we'll die. if we take the crumbs from the poisonous leftovers from the top table because they don't want them we've only ourselves to blame.

 

of course, as i said before, maybe you (and presumably David Beattie going on his silence) are spot on. but to be honest, its toxic. it doesn't feel right. and i'm sure you have faced situations in your life when they don't feel right. this is one of them for me.

 

Julie Ann - two weeks ago I asked for an analysis of our Season Ticket Holders by age - something not previously done onejohnlambie carried this out - whilst we always knew our fan base was age-ing the numbers shocked me - further analysis was carried out on the other aspects mentioned - they were non existant- I have given timescales of five years hardly saying we are deaths door - to address the issue we need to attract younger fans aged 12 -20 our current set up will not attract them - no matter how hard onethistle work, we have to have more than we have at present.

 

I think the Club is a well run business but a poorly run Football Club ,in the past I think we were poor on both fronts and are now in a position where people like me are prepared to ignore blatent cheating in order that we can rebuild the Club - this was never going to be a popular stance but if we are to have decisions we have to have reasoned debate ,we have to face the reality of our decisions - my dream is to have fans run PTFC - in future they may have to trade off principle for the longer term future - they will have to make difficult decisions - this is the purpose of the thread - I will not change the general concensus I will however ensure people face up to our current position otherwise we are as well sitting back and letting someone else run our Club into the ground as we did in the past- this is and I know it seems strange an attempt to get fans into a real debate not " we hate the OF" - if we dont have play offs how do we attract 12 -20 year olds

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

Playoffs are an absolutely key issue for me, our league is a joke without them. However, they have been a key issue for the first division for 15 years, if we're only getting them if we bend over backwards to accommodate Newco then I for one have absolutely no interest. You might be willing to sell your soul for playoffs Jim, but I have no interest in selling the soul of our club for anything. Without the integrity and independence that have made me proud to be a Thistle fan all my life, we are nothing.

[Trotter]

 

if we dont have play offs how do we attract 12 -20 year olds

 

2 thoughts to his.

 

1) If we do how does that attract them? The assumption is PTFC are involved in them every year I guess?

 

2) & this is a totally daft and unrealistic suggestion, but the SFL clubs vote to keep Sevco out & there is no more Govan Rangers. Do you think their 12-20 fan base walk away altogether? Where could they go as an alternative?

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

Also Jim I think you underestimate the feeling of younger fans on this issue. I'm not quite in the U20 age bracket any more and was just old enough to appreciate the severity of Save the Jags at the time but for the younger fans this is probably the biggest single issue our club has faced in their time supporting the club. The fans most likely to be alienated by this are the real core support, the ones who have bought completely into everything Partick Thistle stand for.

 

For too long, clubs in Scotland have been guilty of valuing the TV money over all else, believing the fans would not desert them, that the fans could be treated like dirt and would keep coming back. I would have thought you of all people would appreciate the error of this approach, however PTFC seem to be hugely behind the curve in failing to appreciate that the severity of this issue is so huge that TV money in the grand scheme of things means **** all.

 

I read a reply from Turnbull Hutton to an e-mail from a Raith fan on P&B. He said "I would rather be playing junior football than surrender to blackmail." A breath of fresh air in this whole fiasco, and a lead the board would be well advised to follow.

[Julie Ann]

Julie Ann - two weeks ago I asked for an analysis of our Season Ticket Holders by age - something not previously done onejohnlambie carried this out - whilst we always knew our fan base was age-ing the numbers shocked me - further analysis was carried out on the other aspects mentioned - they were non existant- I have given timescales of five years hardly saying we are deaths door - to address the issue we need to attract younger fans aged 12 -20 our current set up will not attract them - no matter how hard onethistle work, we have to have more than we have at present.

 

I think the Club is a well run business but a poorly run Football Club ,in the past I think we were poor on both fronts and are now in a position where people like me are prepared to ignore blatent cheating in order that we can rebuild the Club - this was never going to be a popular stance but if we are to have decisions we have to have reasoned debate ,we have to face the reality of our decisions - my dream is to have fans run PTFC - in future they may have to trade off principle for the longer term future - they will have to make difficult decisions - this is the purpose of the thread - I will not change the general concensus I will however ensure people face up to our current position otherwise we are as well sitting back and letting someone else run our Club into the ground as we did in the past- this is and I know it seems strange an attempt to get fans into a real debate not " we hate the OF" - if we dont have play offs how do we attract 12 -20 year olds

 

i think everyone who is on here will be 100% in agreement with that. shame that your former colleagues in the boardroom seem to disagree. by the time the proposals are presented/debated/whatevered to/by the sfl members's reps we'll have three weeks before the season begins. knowing how long it takes anything to get organised, coupled with the sfl/sfa/spl requiring a decision within days, if not hours, from them being presented with the plans then i'd put it to you that there will be no consultation carried out at all.

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

One last post on this issue and I'm done for the evening.

 

We have all spent varying amounts of years believing that the rules in Scottish football were not applied fairly, that there was an inherent bias towards the Old Firm. Nonetheless, we have all continued showing up week in, week out to support the club we are proud to love, that stand proudly as an alternative to the OF.

 

Imagine concrete evidence was produced to prove that our belief over all those years was right, that the rules are different for the Old Firm? I would have a hard enough time continuing to have any interest in Scottish football if that were the case, but if my club continued to stand against such biases and special interests I would have enough pride in them to show them loyalty in the face of such corruption.

 

Now imagine, not only is there concrete evidence of such corruption, but that my club, the club I have loved since we beat Airdrie 1-0 on the opening day of season 92/93, were actively involved in permitting such corruption, all for the price of a few shiny coins and league reconstruction that is being pursued incidentally to, rather than because of, the good of Scottish football. Why would I ever feel the same loyalty to that club again?

[Auld Jag]

Playoffs are an absolutely key issue for me, our league is a joke without them. However, they have been a key issue for the first division for 15 years, if we're only getting them if we bend over backwards to accommodate Newco then I for one have absolutely no interest. You might be willing to sell your soul for playoffs Jim, but I have no interest in selling the soul of our club for anything. Without the integrity and independence that have made me proud to be a Thistle fan all my life, we are nothing.

Couldnt agree more.The SFL clubs must get more,imo we will never get another chance like this.Lets get back to bigger leagues and only playing each oter twice a season.We are only getting this because the SPL clubs want to say to ther fans we said no to newco.But if this goes ahead they will be back in a seasonThey dont want to lose fans why should we? Do we want to kill our club off to save newco?No way. Edited June 29, 2012 by Auld Jag

[marcojag]

To answer the question there is nothing that the SPL/SFL/SFA could offer that would make me consider accepting a vote for newco to enter the First Division. I understand Jim's ambition for the club, which I share, but where is the ambition in accepting that we are essentially there to prop up the established SPL clubs while potentially ruining any chance we have of promotion next season?

 

Let's not pretend these proposals are anything but an attempt to save SPL clubs. Maybe if they hadn't been driven by greed in setting up the SPL in the first place, and had been willing to distribute money more evenly throughout Scottish football, they wouldn't be looking at taking such a substantial hit with the loss of Rangers and SKY. Let them reap what they sow.

 

I understand the need to increase the number of young fans for the club's long term future but the SFL Proposal is a short term fix. I don't have any optimism that playoffs alone will have young fans flocking to Firhill. I'd much rather we took a longer term, strategic look at how we can improve the age distribution of our fanbase. Not my area of expertise but should we not be looking in the immediate future at exploring ways of attracting and retaining more say 20-40 year old fans as they will still have a fair number of years of attending games. Thereafter we can then look at the 12-20 year old age group which to me is likely to be the most problematic.

 

I'm not in the age bracket Jim is targeting but, at 26, would still like to think I have a few years of torture suporting Thistle left. However, if the club votes to support a newco entry to the First Division I will not be back at Firhill and I never thought I'd say that.

[Z88]

I don't see how a trade-off allowing a Newco Rangers into SFL1 in return for an SPL play-off place and a small improvemnt in tv money addresses PTFC's longer term problems of an ageing support. Are we any different in that respect to any other club in Scotland apart from the Old Firm (can we still use that term?). As has been said before on here Newco is a new football club and the due process of applying for any vacancy in the SFL via division 3 should be followed. It' s not a question of moral high ground -it's just about the rules being applied fairly.

 

[McKennan]

Hopefully there's more to the club canvassing the opinion of fans on this matter than a thread on this website.

 

The question in the OP of 'what will it take?' strikes me as an attempt to normalise the idea of Thistle backing a Rangers newco in SFL 1 in much the same way as newspapers such as the Daily Record have managed to normalise the idea of Rangers past and present as a victim of its own greed and folly. As such it is therefore entitled to leniency, forgiveness and understanding.

 

I'll answer the question in the OP in the way others have: I expect a Rangers newco to arrive in SFL1 after it has applied for membership of the Scottish Football League and worked its way through SFL 3 and SFL 2 to get to SFL 1.

 

Given the harsh economics of football I expect our lords and masters to want their newco in SFL1 straight away. They're impatient and the silence is, as has been stated elsewhere, deafening. It's Rangers. I can't see them getting their knickers in a twist over Albion Rovers.

 

Normalisation of the idea of Thistle backing a newco Rangers in SFL 1 - get ready for the volume to go up to 10.

[GrantB]

Jim, you are talking about lifelong Jags fans, Jags fans with young children, who are talking about chucking it for good if we are seen to be siding with this evil (and make no mistake, that is what they are).

 

I'm 42, my wee girl is 9 in a couple of weeks and wants a Jags strip for her birthday. Nothing will make me prouder than seeing her wearing the colours but if we vote for NewCo, it's over.

 

When is the penny going to drop?

[Capital Jag]

I don't get how asking what people would accept to allow the Sevcos into SFL 1 has become about the age profile of the fan base. You've always been a reasonable communicator Jim but this has gone awry. When you ask a question leave the goalposts where they are.

 

In the spirit of your original question: I can't accept the different pace proposed for the different changes. The ONLY way I would accept the Sevcos in Div 1 this August would be if there only were 2 divisions. To make that palatable they would need to be large - 19/20 teams each with at least 3 up and down AND play offs for next 3-4 places. The pyramid at bottom of Div2 would have to come in at same time and The newco would have to apply for the privilege.

 

On the basis that war and negotiations are best waged from a position of strength I'd also suggest that these changes be accompanied by - as minimum - more equitable shares of gate money, tv money, sponsorship money AND a voting system that has at least some resemblance to democracy. If the OF don't like all that what are they going to do?. The boot is on the other foot right now. Let's keep it that way.

 

Frankly, I don't trust the OF and SPL. Either it all changes now - or all change is postponed and the Sevcos have to apply for Div 3 and follow the rules. If the rest of Scottish football accepts scraps from the table despite being in a position of strength then I am absolutely convinced that no other changes will be implemented at the end of next season. I would go as far a to wonder whether the scraps might even be taken back.

 

In the spirit of the moving goalposts : IMHO - the only way to raise the number of bams on seats is success. I may have been naive for decades BUT without the belief - no matter how naive - that the Jags might have a chance to compete some day the whole set up becomes a fiasco.

 

This is the problem. My emotional ties to the PTFC name are strong BUT I have a brain too. If there is no point, no prospect of ever competing I am out. I will be sad but I will be out.

 

Finally - getting back to communications - statement 3 by the board tonight was awful. Who is advising them on PR? When you are in a hole you stop digging. That was just amateurish and embarrassing.

[GrantB]

I honestly cannot believe we are willing to sell ourselves like a cheap tart for the prospect of having the lowest form of humanity at our stadium twice next season bringing with them their songs of hate about 300 year old wars in a foreign country.

 

This is not what Partick Thistle FC stand for.