What Would Make You Consider A Yes Vote For Newco

[lennythistle]

Well he started the OP by insulting the club and the fans by accusing us in our STJ period as being the same as RFC now. Our case was incompetence but involved nothing illegal, we paid off as much as we were able to our creditors.

 

We also took our punishment for that because we swiftly dropped down the leagues narrowly avoiding the third - nobody came running to help us stay in the SPL or the first - and you could argue that apart from a few miracle years under Lambie we continued and continue to suffer from that.

 

RFC as was cheated on tax - no, this is not like other clubs paying tax late, this was systematic tax dodging over many years. They refused to pay football debts - Rapid Vienna are still owed a million. The SFA's own report says what they did was just a little short of match fixing.

 

So the OP, comparing Thistle's position with all that comes over like one of the worse, in-denial RFC fans (no not accusing him of being one, just pointing out these are the exact kind of arguments they come out with). To be honest if he wanted to stir up more animosity towards the board's current stand, he could hardly have done it better.

 

Edit to add: if we'd failed to put the money together under STJ we'd have been gone - a dead duck like Third Lanark and nobody, nobody would have given a damn except the ex-supporters.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but Forfar helped. I'm sure they waived some money owed or agreed to delay in it involving Allan Morgan( VAT on his transfer comes to mind). Had they not, it could have finished us. I'll forever hold them in the highest regard for that.

 

Other than that, agree 100%.

[three jags]

the more the board come out with these non-statements like they have been doing the more it looks like they couldnt give a damn about the supporters. as for the drivel from JJ it's just embarrasing, no make that disgusting.

 

 

On page 10 of this thread and appears to be 1 for Newco in 1st ( JJ) and the rest against

 

if any of the board read or get fed info from this forum , this will be the time to tell if they care/listen about the support

 

Many other teams in the 1st and SPL have listened - hope we are not the exception

[yoda-jag]

I dont think there is a "right or wrong" I dont think there is such a thing as integrity in our game therefore Im not bothered about Newco ,so you see whats on offer

 

If the clubs reflect the views of 95% of the fans of all clubs, then integrity WILL be restored to the game.

 

Paying customers will see the game is not rigged purely in favour of two clubs, and consquently that the game may well be worth them parting with more of their cash (and on a more regular basis for many) in the knowledge that rules are followed, and when broken punishments are made appropriately the rules are excercised without fear or favour, and regardless of how big or small a club is. Do the opposite, and watch the whole game die within less than 5 years.

 

Can you not see that side of the argument Jim? You are an Engineer, so we know you ain't stupid.

 

 

 

No, but you're OP asked the question. Voting no will not change Scottish football from being a busted flush, you're bang on, but it will stop PTFC becoming one. I think the fans have spoken loudly, clearly and unanimously...if 90% on here think SFL3 it must be (at best) then Im pretty sure that figure aint gona change too dramatically when spread acroos the 2,500 regular attenders at Firhill. How many regular fans can we afford to sacrifice on the off chance that we might attract younger fans because we might have a chance of getting to a play-off that might get us promoted into a corupt SPL? 300? 400? More? I'd say 0, we cant afford to lose a single fan (or the following generations of that fan) never mind potentially 20% of the regulars. Voting no will ensure that doesn't happen. Simple.

 

I would not be at all surprised if we didn't get more than 3 figure attendances twice this coming season if newco are in same league as us.

 

Even if only half of those who say they will walk away from the game, do in fact do so (and i will be one of them should PTFC not vote no to newco in our league, and the rules being applied) - then extrapolated over our last seasons average attendances of those who were paying (excluding kids go free obviously), then 3 figure crowds will be the norm at Firhill.

 

 

 

I think this current situation and the choice(s) that we are being presented get to the very heart and soul of what Partick Thistle and being a Thistle supporter in a city dominated by the Old Filth is about. If anything, it should mean that our opposition to this should be taken for granted in a way that wouldn't be expected for many/some of the other teams. And yet, we're the ones sitting on the fence.

 

That's not about a disagremeent on a point of judgement, It's failing to distinguish the baby from the bathwater, and is utterly shameful

 

100% in agreement.

[Mr Bunny]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Forfar helped. I'm sure they waived some money owed or agreed to delay in it involving Allan Morgan( VAT on his transfer comes to mind). Had they not, it could have finished us. I'll forever hold them in the highest regard for that.

 

Other than that, agree 100%.

 

Aplogies for that - to Forfar more than anyone on here.

[yoda-jag]

Fan ownership/fan control would definitely be up there with what I want from the club and in that respect an interesting article on BBC site this morning.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/18657039

 

But that's not goin to happen imminently.

 

What is happening imminently is this Rangers/Sevco nonsense.

 

This isn't about revenge for me. It's about getting the best deal for PTFC specifically & Scottish Football in general.

 

Newco in 1st division is what the SPL want. They're offering 30 pieces of silver for SFL member clubs to bend their rules so that they get to keep their SKY money and keep face with their fans.

 

SFL want more money for its member clubs and promotion/relegation opportunities to top league.

 

But let's face facts, play offs over two games with the 2nd bottom SPL club. How often will 1st division club come out on top?

 

One off games in the cup between SFL1 & SPL clubs are producing less shocks as the SPL clubs have more money & resources at the moment.

 

How long will it take SFL clubs to catch up? & how long before the SPL renegotiate the deal that SFL clubs either get the money or the play offs? Self Preservation League for a reason.

 

What I want is the end of the SPL. A level playing field as far as TV/sponsorship money being distributed amongst member clubs. In terms of gate receipts RFC (or Newco) & CFC will always be ahead of the game but even they're struggling to fill their stadia. IMO the only way fans will come back to football in general is when they start to see competition.

 

A Newco RFC having to start at the bottom is a challenge for them. It will be a challenge for PTFC when they meet in whatever league.

 

Parachute them into SFL1 and they get a leg up with the drop down money/TV money/30 pieces of silver & they're gone in a season. In a couple more seasons the loophole that has opened for SFL clubs will be knotted shut!

 

Let them start in Div 3 and they have to do it properly (integrity) and you know what if it helps blood a few Scottish youngsters that became stars in the national team then it's another plus for me. It also strengthens the other clubs hands when league reconstruction is being asked for again- & it will be- as the SPL clubs know without RFC the SKY deal goes shortly after.

 

SFL clubs are being left with someone else's problem. If they don't want to know because their fans will revolt then why should I/we as PTFC fans be different?

 

So, to turn the question round, what does yes vote achieve apart from a bit of extra income & play offs?

 

Well he started the OP by insulting the club and the fans by accusing us in our STJ period as being the same as RFC now. Our case was incompetence but involved nothing illegal, we paid off as much as we were able to our creditors.

 

We also took our punishment for that because we swiftly dropped down the leagues narrowly avoiding the third - nobody came running to help us stay in the SPL or the first - and you could argue that apart from a few miracle years under Lambie we continued and continue to suffer from that.

 

RFC as was cheated on tax - no, this is not like other clubs paying tax late, this was systematic tax dodging over many years. They refused to pay football debts - Rapid Vienna are still owed a million. The SFA's own report says what they did was just a little short of match fixing.

 

So the OP, comparing Thistle's position with all that comes over like one of the worse, in-denial RFC fans (no not accusing him of being one, just pointing out these are the exact kind of arguments they come out with). To be honest if he wanted to stir up more animosity towards the board's current stand, he could hardly have done it better.

 

Edit to add: if we'd failed to put the money together under STJ we'd have been gone - a dead duck like Third Lanark and nobody, nobody would have given a damn except the ex-supporters.

 

Two excellent posts which get to the nub of the matter with regards this thread, which is a huge bag of wrong from one poster i am sad to say.

 

If anything i believe this thread has further strengthened the resolve and unity of the Thistle support. A clear message to the Beattie and rest of the board and their "every avenue" canvassing of opinion. Ignore us, and you will kill the club, but you can then can cash in on your Propco nice little retirement earner within next few years. Splendid.

Just don't choke on your succulent lamb.

Edited June 30, 2012 by yoda-jag

[GrantB]

I really hope all Jim is doing here is playing devil's advocate.

 

Rarely, if ever, since those dark days of STJ, have I seen the Thistle support so united behind a cause. I really hope that if any good can come of this situation, this unity can be used for the betterment of the club (assuming the BoD take the strength of feeling on board and do the right thing)

[lennythistle]

I really hope all Jim is doing here is playing devil's advocate.

 

Rarely, if ever, since those dark days of STJ, have I seen the Thistle support so united behind a cause. I really hope that if any good can come of this situation, this unity can be used for the betterment of the club (assuming the BoD take the strength of feeling on board and do the right thing)

 

I agree completely. My facebook page has been filled with new friend requests over the last few weeks following this matter. All are fellow Jags fans and have got to know me a bit better and understand me as a person by reading my views on this issue and of my love for the jags.

 

I do feel something really really good could come out of this......if the NO vote is cast.

[Lindau]

Well he started the OP by insulting the club and the fans by accusing us in our STJ period as being the same as RFC now. Our case was incompetence but involved nothing illegal, we paid off as much as we were able to our creditors.

 

We also took our punishment for that because we swiftly dropped down the leagues narrowly avoiding the third - nobody came running to help us stay in the SPL or the first - and you could argue that apart from a few miracle years under Lambie we continued and continue to suffer from that.

 

RFC as was cheated on tax - no, this is not like other clubs paying tax late, this was systematic tax dodging over many years. They refused to pay football debts - Rapid Vienna are still owed a million. The SFA's own report says what they did was just a little short of match fixing.

 

So the OP, comparing Thistle's position with all that comes over like one of the worse, in-denial RFC fans (no not accusing him of being one, just pointing out these are the exact kind of arguments they come out with). To be honest if he wanted to stir up more animosity towards the board's current stand, he could hardly have done it better.

 

Edit to add: if we'd failed to put the money together under STJ we'd have been gone - a dead duck like Third Lanark and nobody, nobody would have given a damn except the ex-supporters.

 

Top stuff Mr B!

[Junior]

I really hope all Jim is doing here is playing devil's advocate.

 

Rarely, if ever, since those dark days of STJ, have I seen the Thistle support so united behind a cause. I really hope that if any good can come of this situation, this unity can be used for the betterment of the club (assuming the BoD take the strength of feeling on board and do the right thing)

 

Ive been thinking that since I saw Jim's first post.

 

Spark a debate by putting the position that no one wants to happen out there and see what people say. What its done is unite everyone under one banner , so then that can be used to ask people what they will do to assist the club once this decision is made.

 

Whats should be more of a concern for the club is if the figure of 300 is accurate , can they afford for ecen 1/3 of those fans to walk away ? As much as attracting new fans should be paramount for the club retaining existing fans should be equally important

[Trotter]

Whats should be more of a concern for the club is if the figure of 300 is accurate , can they afford for ecen 1/3 of those fans to walk away ? As much as attracting new fans should be paramount for the club retaining existing fans should be equally important

 

Spot on!

[little_miss_jag]

Theres is 11 pages of this thread and I have skimmed through them however the question of the thread is

"What Would Make You Consider A Yes Vote For Newco"

 

So let me give my answer.

 

Simply nothing. It's not about who did what when or how much we got p in £ when.

 

Just now It's about a club who cheated, got found out and now no longer exist. In their place a new club called "Sevco", with no history and no actual proof they also wont do the same as the club they replaced. The question is what happens to this "Sevco"?

 

A few points from your post Jim and again I do respect your view on this mess but I wont pretend to agree.

 

 

I have in various guises been responsible for putting bums on seats ,it gets harder by the year - simple reason ,nothing to play for - last Season four Clubs chasing second spot - no one cared ,flip that to a play off it becomes a completley different Season.

So if Fans demand we vote no due to "Sporting Integrity" then please remember we have 32 p in the £ greater integrity than Rangers - we dont get play offs we will be irrelevant in five years anyway.

 

But I guess the real question here is how much do you want to sell your basic values and principles in order to get something we have wanted for years? We all wants play offs, league reconstruction and a bit more competitiveness in the game. I agree. What I do NOT agree with is selling ourselves so cheaply in order to get that.

The club statement reads "If the price is right we will certainly consider it". Just say NO why is that so hard for the club to do?

 

This should not be about money, this should not be about how we can can use the situation to our advantage and it is not about "revenge" or "getting the upper hand". It is about doing what is right.

 

I do however care about the long term future of PTFC - currently 50% of our Season Ticket holders are over 50 ( 25% over 65) Kids go Free has failed ,we are not a Family Club ,nor are we a Community Club - we are a Club slowly dying.

 

I care about the long term future of our club. I love ptfc - I love walking up the hill amongst jags fans. I love sitting in the shed among like minded people. I don't want the club to die. But if our club say yes, then the club is dead. We may get more money and more to play for but we have essentially put a noose around our neck and that is when the slow death begins anyway. Why? Simple - we are the club that said yes. Once SEVCO have gone and we have half the fan base we did and hardly any away support because we were the club that said "YES"- how long can the club live off the "money" made from the 1 season SEVCO were in DIV 1? The noose will get tighter and we will die.

 

Instead this is about doing for once what is right. It might not make much fnancial sense and it might not be the best option for PTFC as a business but as a business it needs to listen to it's customers. It's customers say no to SEVCO. Is it worth the gamble not to listen?

 

I feel Jim you are saying that by fans saying"NO" we will the kill the club but infact by saying "yes" Beatie does that all by himself.

 

If we want a Club we can be proud of not the irrelevance we have become we need to look at our future ,we cannot survive in the long term ,sure there will be a team called PTFC but a part time group of boys - not a viable Club with ambition.

 

Could you say you would be proud if PTFC said "YES" to Sevco in div 1? I am disgusted just now that we cannot say no, never mind if we did say "yes". I am anything but "PROUD"right now to say I support the Jags!

 

"Its not financial - its a big empty stadium full of OId Men - I have stated clearly Im willing to trade principle for a JHS with young guys and kids singing Thistle Songs chasing a play off spot through the Season - thats it I would vote yes for the chance to see this ,just the chance is good enough for me - Im too ******* old for principles.

I skimmed the thread and seen this. There is your problem - how about stop seeing football as a bloody man's game. There are plenty girls and woman who go along and fill the seats on the JHS. I am sure "jagette" would have you believe she the 1st girl ever to grace a football stadium EVER but believe it or not some of us have actually been going for years. Your too old for principles - then I would say walk away - we should not be "selling" ourself to cheaply.

 

To answer the question of the post - Lets not be cheap, lets keep our principles and and for the good of the game say NO! We will and cannot be "wooed" over by promises of league reconstruction, promises of play offs, more money, a fairer game overall instead we need to keep our basic values, principles and keep sporting integrity in the game and stop being bullied to do whatever or wherever the money takes us.

 

We need to stand up, be united and say "yes" to sporting Intergrity and "NO" to SEVCO!

[bell]

I actually used to support that team that used to play in blue when I was a wean, but stopped when I saw sense around the age of 16. I was sickened by the sectarianism, bogotry, stupidity and pointlessness of the Old Firm, and decided to switch to an honest club with no such problems. As I had family connections to Maryhill, for the last 12 years it's been Thistle.

 

If the BoD vote to allow Newco into SFL1, then I won't be back to Firhill while they're running it.

 

The "full details" the BoD are waiting for won't be around any time soon, as the SFL letter about the matter is full of conjecture, scaremongering and lies. The facts are, at the current time, that the fans are against any new-start club entering the league in the first division, and a paltry bribe from the SPL is not nearly enough to justify us in overlooking cheating. That's what it is: cheating. If the BoD vote yes, they're condoning cheating and that is when we lose the 'moral highground'.

[weebaldie]

Is it possible that the club/board are reluctant to issue a NO statement because of past favours from oldco that we the fans are unaware of, for example, the terms for the loan players we've had or even financial help?

 

Another issue could be the fear factor. Firhill is nearer to Ibrox than any other senior club and we are a minority support even in the club's locality of Maryhill and the rest of the west end. We're not like Dunfermline or Kirkcaldy where the majority probably do support their local teams. Even there, we are already aware of threats made to Raith's Starks Park and staff.

 

From a personal safety aspect, assuming sevco do end up in the SFL3 and the season kicks off 'normally', will it no longer be advisable to travel to Firhill/St George's X on the subway when sevco are at home while wearing a PT (or any other non-sevco club for that matter) top or scarf?

 

These points are not excuses, just speculation about why the board members don't want to raise their heads above the parapet and announce a NO vote.

[McKennan]

I really hope all Jim is doing here is playing devil's advocate.

 

 

Running with the hares, hunting with the hounds is more his style.

[McKennan]

Is it possible that the club/board are reluctant to issue a NO statement because of past favours from oldco that we the fans are unaware of, for example, the terms for the loan players we've had or even financial help?

 

That factor has never stopped former boards dumping on the supporter's trust in its various incarnations after goodwill gestures and donations.

 

I think Rangers 'oldco' has more on its plate than Thistle telling it to do one.

[Trotter]

Is it possible that the club/board are reluctant to issue a NO statement because of past favours from oldco that we the fans are unaware of, for example, the terms for the loan players we've had or even financial help?

 

Another issue could be the fear factor. Firhill is nearer to Ibrox than any other senior club and we are a minority support even in the club's locality of Maryhill and the rest of the west end. We're not like Dunfermline or Kirkcaldy where the majority probably do support their local teams. Even there, we are already aware of threats made to Raith's Starks Park and staff.

 

From a personal safety aspect, assuming sevco do end up in the SFL3 and the season kicks off 'normally', will it no longer be advisable to travel to Firhill/St George's X on the subway when sevco are at home while wearing a PT (or any other non-sevco club for that matter) top or scarf?

 

These points are not excuses, just speculation about why the board members don't want to raise their heads above the parapet and announce a NO vote.

 

No chance.

 

Beattie wants an invite to SPL or SPL2. No other motives behind the lack of sensible comment IMO.

 

Why issue a statement saying about onethistle last weekend if any of that was the case?

Edited June 30, 2012 by Trotter

[bell]

Is it possible that the club/board are reluctant to issue a NO statement because of past favours from oldco that we the fans are unaware of, for example, the terms for the loan players we've had or even financial help?

Hope not. Newco has no business connection to RFC(ia), so if that were the case, we have no obligation to Green. Why should we do him a favour when Newco hasn't done anything ever?

[Mr Bunny]

Another thing to be considered is whether Newco (or Blueco, whatever) are going to be stable. Not only is it unsure what players and monies they'll have - there are still various investigations underway/about to start which could have an effect on who owns the ex-RFC assets and which could result in court cases with various guys suing each other.

 

Plus many of their fans may decide to boycott (how ironic for RFC fans) away games in revenge against the rest of Scottish football - add this to home fans staying away if they get in to Div 1.

 

This means not only is Newco very likely not going to be as big a cash cow as they hope, it could also be a ticking time bomb which causes massive disruption mid-season. Not saying how likely this is - it may not be very likely since legal investigations tend to take time and they might be able to get through a season before it all blows up but it is definitley something that should be considered along with all the other factors.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Mr Bunny

[gettingjaggy]

There is your problem - how about stop seeing football as a bloody man's game. There are plenty girls and woman who go along and fill the seats on the JHS. I am sure "jagette" would have you believe she the 1st girl ever to grace a football stadium EVER but believe it or not some of us have actually been going for years.

 

Ouch!

[Exiled AusJag]

Bell made a very good point about why he supports the Jags. My brother and myself were pointed towards Thistle by our dad when we were both young, firstly, because we could walk to Firhill, and secondly, as I was told by my dad in later years, that he didn't want either of us supporting a sectarian club.

 

Due to my location, I can't stop going to Firhill if there's a yes vote, but as I said on another thread, after liquidation, the old club doesn't exist.

 

ANY newco must apply through the proper channels as a matter of integrity, and entry to the SFL, if granted, must be at the lowest level, with no exceptions! Third Lanark were never given the option that's being made available now, and they were a well supported club. Why should anyone else be given preferential treatment?

 

In the short term, from what I've read, there seems to be a polorisation of anger from the support from the oldco, but if a newco fails in a bit for SFL entry, then their fan base could dissipate. Don't forget, it's drawn from all over Scotland, and it used to amaze me when I was on the supporters bus to away games, seeing buses heading INTO glasgow with OF suppoters, therefore lowering the support for their home town teams. Hopefully they would filter away to their local clubs, which would not tolerate any sectarianism, and with a bit of luck, could be the start of the road to recoveray AWAY from sectarianism, and more bums on seats at other clubs.

 

It's wishful thinking, I know, but even if a proportion of the non fanatical support who regularly go to their games were to switch, eventually go to their local clubs, then football will benefit.

[Blackpool Jags]

What would it take for me to accept a vote for Hunnewco into the second tier? Literally nothing.

 

Over 90% of the h uns I know don't expect or want anything other than a new start in Div 3. Christ, if it's good enough for them...

[Lindau]

David (Lesley) Beattie makes his point clear on TV

 

 

[little_miss_jag]

Ouch!

 

Yeah sorry if that was harsh but does piss me of! Some of us are there for the football and it really does ruin the credibility of women at football when a girls organisation does a "fitty award". Anyways many more things piss me of about Scottish football such a newco, not enough veggy options at grounds and the fact we can't stand at games. This one is way down that list!

 

 

No to newco I believe is the theme of this thread! !

[La Scimmia Rossa]

We've moved beyond the whole Newco thing now. It's clear that PArtick Thistle fans have a decision to make regardless of the outcome. For many it seems it's too late. If the club come and and say "no" now, it will be welcome but will look like too little too late.

 

 

The chairman of Partick Thistle has no credibility with the fans. The OneThistle group can forget making any meaningful difference. Sadly for Jim A, i think his reputation is shot now too.

[Third Lanark]

I dont disagree and for many the principle is utmost which I respect ,we need younger fans - integrity isnt big with modern teenagers - the buzz of a play off ,larger crowds ,better atmosphere , young guys singing in the JHS - FFS singing in the JHS - I would sell my Granny to hear the JHS singing again ,honest to God Greig Im sick of failure - the Blazers can fawn over visiting Directors or Hospitality and pretend we are a Football Club - I couldnt care less - I want a stadium full of Kids, Teenagers singing Jags Songs and a big banner in the New Shed when the OF come visiting say YOUR NOT THE OPPONENTS - YOUR THE ENEMY for this Im willing to ditch principles.

 

Nice to see the Blog back and a bit of anger - missed it mate

Jim there are already Rangers fans disgusted with their club and talking about bringing their kids to Firhill and following Thistle. Again I must repeat the sooner we are Glasgow's second team the more this will happen. It will not happen by cosying up to Rangers newco and getting them on a fast track back to the SPL quite the opposite will happen it will be back to Glasgow's big 2 again and we are likely to be a considerable less well off support ourselves as we will face boycott from away supporters and many of our own sickened by Beattie and the clubs stance