Jags vs. Lichties, 23rd Sep

[fenski]

Wasn't there today and by the sounds of it, lucky miss.

On the goalkeepers, Mitchell is much better at distribution and does at least talk to his defence.

Hope to see some changes next week, otherwise it suggests the manager doesn't trust the likes of Williamson and Alston to do a job.

[partickthedog]

Cunning move to hide the highlights in the interviews section of JagZone!

[lady-isobel-barnett]

11 hours ago, fenski said:

Hope to see some changes next week, otherwise it suggests the manager doesn't trust the likes of Williamson and Alston to do a job.

Agree but at same time back of my mind nagging me that both players won't make a notable difference. By that I mean principally win balls in midfield. My gut feeling is having that deficiency means our defence is overexposed too often and when our other midfielders make errors on the ball we're more open to punishment. Natural reaction to spend less time on the ball and more time blootering the ball up the park. 

If we had a Rowson/Paton/Osman* type ball winner on the park we'd not only be plugging a gap thru the middle but such a player would also be covering many of the mistakes made at fullback.

 

*for clarity I could add Docherty. Just I thought he wasn't as capable as a defensive mid as those named. 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by lady-isobel-barnett

[Auld Jag]

12 hours ago, fenski said:

Wasn't there today and by the sounds of it, lucky miss.

On the goalkeepers, Mitchell is much better at distribution and does at least talk to his defence.

Hope to see some changes next week, otherwise it suggests the manager doesn't trust the likes of Williamson and Alston to do a job.

In my pre match comment on this thread i said the only change i would make from the Ayr game would be to bring Milne back. After yesterday i could not make a case for keeping any of yesterday's starting XI in next weeks team. The problem is that apart from Mitchell anyone else who comes in wont have had much time on the park.

[laukat]

Re-watched the goals.

First goal, I have no idea what MacKenzie is trying to do. However even after losing the ball there the goal is preventable. When it moves out to the other wing Stanway doesn't put any pressure on the cross but perhaps worst of all Bannigan is meant to pick up the Arbroath goalscorer but he turns his back and goes with an Abroath player that Neilson is able to deal with. On top of that Arbroath have another 2 players free at the edge of the 18 yard box. Only Muirhead and Neilson have picked up an Arbroath player and done their jobs.

Second goal. Its a reasonable defensive header from Milne but Fitzpatrick doesn't get in front of his man and Arbroath player has all the time he needs to execute the shot. We have conceded that type of goal too many times this year. Also worth noting that when the cross goes in Muirhead, MacKenzie and Milne are all in decent postions to deal with the cross or with the 2 Arbroath players in the vicinity. However Bannigan gets sucked in rather than passing his runner on and staying at the edge of the box to be in a position to get to Milne's header first.

The 3rd goal on face value looks like a breakaway and in part caused by our switch to 3 at the back to try and chase the game. However 2 things annoy me. First of all Bannigan goes for a header that looks fairly bread and bitter but he lets it hit off him rather than dealing with it. Secondly both Bannigan and Stanway go chasing the same player and neither get back to help the defence.

Stanway and MacKenzie were poor yesterday but they at least have the excuse of youth and in MacKenzie's case being played out of position.

No idea what the excuse is for Bannigan. Last time we played Bannigan as a CDM was in 2018/19 when Archie was last in charge. Even Archie realised he needed a better CDM but unfortunately for him he found a bigger dud in Brice Ntambwe.

Please, please , please can we learn a lesson quickly and look at a midfield that doesn't include Stuart Bannigan? Unless we sign someone on loan I'd much rather try Williamson as CDM, McInroy alongside him with Robinson in the advanced role.

[MarciaBlaine]

54 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Agree but at same time back of my mind nagging me that both players won't make a notable difference. By that I mean principally win balls in midfield. My gut feeling is having that deficiency means our defence is overexposed too often and when our other midfielders make errors on the ball we're more open to punishment. Natural reaction to spend less time on the ball and more time blootering the ball up the park. 

If we had a Rowson/Paton/Osman* type ball winner on the park we'd not only be plugging a gap thru the middle but such a player would also be covering many of the mistakes made at fullback.

 

*for clarity I could add Docherty. Just I thought he wasn't as capable as a defensive mid as those named. 

 

Muirhead has at times played as a defensive DM and I think he could do that job. But he's one of very few CBs, our other main area of deficiency.

[Lenziejag]

6 minutes ago, MarciaBlaine said:

Muirhead has at times played as a defensive DM and I think he could do that job. But he's one of very few CBs, our other main area of deficiency.

I had thought of Muirhead and maybe if he actually wins some tackles in midfield it would relieve some of the pressure on the defence.

[laukat]

2 minutes ago, MarciaBlaine said:

Muirhead has at times played as a defensive DM and I think he could do that job. But he's one of very few CBs, our other main area of deficiency.

I think we tried Neilson in there against Airdrie but at the point he came on we had a midfield Alston, Bannigan and Neilson with Wasiri playing as left centre back. So perhaps playing Muirhead in there might work if we played Neilson at left centre back and Wasirie on his preferred right side.

However I think the stats tell us something. We've started Willamson twice in the championship. At home to Raith and away to Airdrie. At the point he is subbed off In both games we are leading them.

Williamson seems to have been dropped since the Hearts game. Not sure if that was injury or related to his Hearts performance but if it was the latter then there were worse that day that him.

Since then it could be argued as Stanway came in, took his chance and we have won most games. However that ignores a couple of factors. Since Stanway came in we have played some of the weakest teams in the league, we lost to QoS at home and the reason we won some games wasn't a stronger midfield but largely the form of Lawless. 

It also goes the evidence of our own eyes. The evidence is our midfield is poor and getting worse not better. Any midfield selection that starts with who is going to play alongside Bannigan is to my mind doomed to fail.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

35 minutes ago, MarciaBlaine said:

Muirhead has at times played as a defensive DM and I think he could do that job. But he's one of very few CBs, our other main area of deficiency.

Seen him play there and he's not too comfortable. For what it's worth that would leave two young centrebacks at the back. If it comes to it perhaps Neilson or Ngwenya could play defensive mid? The former has the mobility, the latter a crunching tackle. Of course their parent clubs may be a bit miffed if played out of position but a case of "needs must" would be an overriding factor.

[Jaggernaut]

Well, that was a pile of crap, resulting in a deserved defeat.

Sneddon: stands and holds the ball for around 15 seconds almost every time (is that allowed?), and then what?.... Rolls it out two yards to a defender. So slow that the sense of lack of urgency or enthusiasm spreads.

Same goes for Neilson and Muirhead, in their own third of the pitch: pass sideways to you, pass sideways back to me. Repeat. Occasionally pass back to the keeper, who'll then join in. Eventually, punt it, possession lost.

Many players do a good job of turning and back-passing when it's clear that they are in trouble. But for Bannigan that's his preferred option every single time. His speciality is running urgently towards our player who has the ball, getting a pass from him, then trying to pass it right back to him when the original player now has a marker right on him. If he doesn't do that, it's then a back-pass to somebody or another safety-first-sideways pass that contributes nothing towards any attack. It's actually woeful to watch time after time.

We got overrun in midfield from start to finish yesterday. Arbroath were worthy winners.

[dl1971]

2 hours ago, laukat said:

Re-watched the goals.

First goal, I have no idea what MacKenzie is trying to do. However even after losing the ball there the goal is preventable. When it moves out to the other wing Stanway doesn't put any pressure on the cross but perhaps worst of all Bannigan is meant to pick up the Arbroath goalscorer but he turns his back and goes with an Abroath player that Neilson is able to deal with. On top of that Arbroath have another 2 players free at the edge of the 18 yard box. Only Muirhead and Neilson have picked up an Arbroath player and done their jobs.

Second goal. Its a reasonable defensive header from Milne but Fitzpatrick doesn't get in front of his man and Arbroath player has all the time he needs to execute the shot. We have conceded that type of goal too many times this year. Also worth noting that when the cross goes in Muirhead, MacKenzie and Milne are all in decent postions to deal with the cross or with the 2 Arbroath players in the vicinity. However Bannigan gets sucked in rather than passing his runner on and staying at the edge of the box to be in a position to get to Milne's header first.

The 3rd goal on face value looks like a breakaway and in part caused by our switch to 3 at the back to try and chase the game. However 2 things annoy me. First of all Bannigan goes for a header that looks fairly bread and bitter but he lets it hit off him rather than dealing with it. Secondly both Bannigan and Stanway go chasing the same player and neither get back to help the defence.

Stanway and MacKenzie were poor yesterday but they at least have the excuse of youth and in MacKenzie's case being played out of position.

No idea what the excuse is for Bannigan. Last time we played Bannigan as a CDM was in 2018/19 when Archie was last in charge. Even Archie realised he needed a better CDM but unfortunately for him he found a bigger dud in Brice Ntambwe.

Please, please , please can we learn a lesson quickly and look at a midfield that doesn't include Stuart Bannigan? Unless we sign someone on loan I'd much rather try Williamson as CDM, McInroy alongside him with Robinson in the advanced role.

I'm getting a vibe you don't like bannigan.....I suspect you have mentioned it before. Fair enough but the entire midfield were gash yesterday. If we still had docherty I'd have no problem with bannigan getting benched ( maybe he will next week ) but I'm not overly confident that any of our midfield are really that great. That said I never get too over excited when we get beat or indeed when we win. It has served me well over 50 years.....

[javeajag]

What was the point of signing Alston , Macdonald and Williamson ? If they didn’t get on the park yesterday they never will. A waste of money when we are crying out for another centre back and defensive midfielder 

[MarciaBlaine]

In terms of what we could have done better yesterday:

• Distribution from Sneddon was slow and poor...
• ...though that was not entirely his fault I think. I was crying out for the full backs in particular to spread out and move up the pitch every time, but they didn't (presumably under instruction). That in turn, even it it hadn't provided an out-ball, would have opened up the centre of the pitch for a throw/pass.
• Also real failures of movement, in the midfield particularly, to show a bit of movement and display their availability for a pass. Because of the above but also more generally, we were so often forced into a lumped long ball, which is the one single thing you should never do to Arbroath. They eat that stuff up for breakfast, every single time.
• Our press was abysmal, especially compared to Arbroath who snapped at our heels all day. Time and again we had a man on every player but we were 3-5 yards away from him. We really lost the game through poor play without the ball, imo. Look, Arbroath are never going to be littered with players who'll dribble past you when you get touch-tight. They will look for a quick simple pass and then run fast towards your goal. Giving them space to do that is bonkers.

Edited September 24, 2023 by MarciaBlaine

[jlsarmy]

2 hours ago, javeajag said:

What was the point of signing Alston , Macdonald and Williamson ? If they didn’t get on the park yesterday they never will. A waste of money when we are crying out for another centre back and defensive midfielder 

Dools probably didn’t want to change a winning team, next week I see Robinson starting instead of Stanway , Ngwenya for Zander .

I would also give give Wes McDonald a shot instead of Aiden who must frustrate everyone, 4 or 5 cameos yesterday, the rest of the time he jogged around the park giving no support to Harry Milne .at all .

[Stephen1876]

Is there any indication of how long McMillan and Williams are out for? 

[MarciaBlaine]

1 hour ago, Stephen1876 said:

Is there any indication of how long McMillan and Williams are out for? 

McMillan back next week according to the pre-game Jagzone interview. I don't think Williams is injured, just dropped.

[Third Lanark]

3 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Dools probably didn’t want to change a winning team, next week I see Robinson starting instead of Stanway , Ngwenya for Zander .

I would also give give Wes McDonald a shot instead of Aiden who must frustrate everyone, 4 or 5 cameos yesterday, the rest of the time he jogged around the park giving no support to Harry Milne .at all .

Almost every post of yours regardless of whether we win or lose seems to contain a dig at Fitzpatrick.  Not great at the weekend certainly but there was far worse than him and been far worse than him in the games where you seem to single him out

[jlsarmy]

18 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

Almost every post of yours regardless of whether we win or lose seems to contain a dig at Fitzpatrick.  Not great at the weekend certainly but there was far worse than him and been far worse than him in the games where you seem to single him out

If you watched the game on Saturday, he never covered Harry Milne which meant it negated Milne going forward 

Our best moments in the game came from Aiden  no doubt about that but when you’re trying to get back in the game you’ve got to work hard , he doesn’t do that .

Everyone knows the ability Aiden has but there is more to football than that, if you look at the other side of the pitch with McMillan and Lawless you can see how hard they work with and without the ball .

It’s all about opinions .

 

 

[Emsca]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:37 PM, Garscube Road End 2 said:

Is Doolan a young McCall?

Is your answer to every bad result to sack the manager ?

Doolan is a young manager in his first full season - he is learning and will undoubtedly make mistakes . He is clearly intelligent and will get better . As supporters ( the clue is in the word) we should be getting behind him and the team - not using every opportunity to snipe and make smart arsed remarks .

I am all for constructive criticism but comments like “ we’re not very good “ are completely unhelpful.

 

[javeajag]

14 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Dools probably didn’t want to change a winning team, next week I see Robinson starting instead of Stanway , Ngwenya for Zander .

I would also give give Wes McDonald a shot instead of Aiden who must frustrate everyone, 4 or 5 cameos yesterday, the rest of the time he jogged around the park giving no support to Harry Milne .at all .

Agreed

[javeajag]

10 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

Almost every post of yours regardless of whether we win or lose seems to contain a dig at Fitzpatrick.  Not great at the weekend certainly but there was far worse than him and been far worse than him in the games where you seem to single him out

If had the technical know how I would take the game on Saturday and show you numerous examples of where Aidan and Zander having lost the ball or our play has broken down simply jog back …..it’s a decided feature of how they play it seems 

[javeajag]

2 hours ago, Emsca said:

Doolan is a young manager in his first full season - he is learning and will undoubtedly make mistakes . He is clearly intelligent and will get better

The key is learning and we shall see eg not playing Zander at right back would show learning from mistakes.

there is a great human assumption that people learn from mistakes , it’s not automatic and often people don’t learn from experience.

this is a big season to see if Dools can reflect on what’s working or not and change things.

[laukat]

Regarding Fitzpatrick. He was probably the best of the attacking trio on Saturday and looked like the only one that worried Arbroath when he was on the ball.

However I thought we learned from last season that Aiden struggles defensively in a 4-2-3-1 but does pretty well in a 4-4-2? Also think we don't get the best from Milne in a 4-2-3-1 as the gap between Fitzpatrick and Milne doesn't allow Milne to overlap or Fitzpatrick to easily drop in front of Milne when we lose the ball.

Last season under Doolan we were undoubtedly at our best when we went 4-4-2 and played Tiffoney through the middle. This season we have the players to do that again but because Bannigan needs to play we need another 2 midfielders to compensate.

I would like to see us try the following:

                  Sneddon/Mitchell

McMillan-Muirhead-Neilson-Milne

Lawless-Williamson-McInroy-Fitzpatrick

                  Graham-Robinson

 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Earlier last season there was reason to criticise Fitzpatrick's work rate. Perhaps lack of fitness/effort was a reason he rarely started? Now he starts every game and has played 90 min every league game bar one (a tactical substitution). Now in my mind if he's not doing the work set out for him on a continuous basis then Aiden's either disregarding instruction and the manager's letting him off or the manager isn't finding a chronic fault with the player. My point really being that continual criticism of a player not giving 100% is continual criticism of the manager. In fact I would say the manager would be far more to blame than the player. Throw in the captain for good measure as he's clearly not captaining the side if the player closest to him is not playing to order. If you blame Fitzpatrick then Doolan and Graham are equally if not even more to blame.

Personally I don't think that's the case. Said before our last line defence is unprotected. A defensive mid would cover for attacking fullbacks (eg Paton for SOD & ATS) not so much attacking wide players.  You can argue that by not having the luxury of a defensive midfielder then Lawless & Fitzpatrick should do more defensively. Merit in that but I feel that's a tactical matter rather than personal responsibility. And that brings you back to criticism of the manager rather than the player.  

 

[Lenziejag]

16 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Dools probably didn’t want to change a winning team, next week I see Robinson starting instead of Stanway , Ngwenya for Zander .

I would also give give Wes McDonald a shot instead of Aiden who must frustrate everyone, 4 or 5 cameos yesterday, the rest of the time he jogged around the park giving no support to Harry Milne .at all .

The 4 or 5 cameos from Fitzpatrick was more than anyone else managed in the game. Harry doesn’t look interested this season for some reason.