Norgethistle Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: My Concern is that lack of a dedicated Fitness Coach - we seem to Flag later on in the Games - which tends to suggest heavy legs Our expectations are the Play Offs its as simple as that Its unlikely in any Season we will have the Cash to win the League outright - so it has to be Play Offs as a target Flagging earlier is also down to game management, knowing when to break the game up and slow it down instead of running about daft for 90 minutes especially if you’re chasing it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Duke Gekantawa said: He’s a better manager with the same group of players, certainly. However, we’re to see if he’s as good at recruitment as McCall (which was his main strength). I think we can only judge that at the End of the Season Doolan managed to scrape 4th on the last Day of last Season -with Results going in our favour - threw away a 3 Goal advantage with 19 minutes to go at Dingwall - so the Jury is still out Play offs are the target - we throw away leads too easily- which is a concern as its either fitness or squad character which is missing The next few games will be when Dools shows how good a Manager he is Recruitment in Football these days ( with limited budgets ) is a massive part of the Job - Lambie was never the best tactician ( or Coach ) but he could spot a Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 7 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: League table the day Ian McCall was sacked. 23 games played, 33 points, 5th place. 1.43 points per game. 42 goals scored. 38 goals against. League table after same number of games under Doolan: 23 games played, 38 points, 3rd place. 46 goals scored. 37 goals against. You cannot credibly argue that this season has gone less well in the League so far than last season. And if you try to you're not a serious person. Absolutely recent form is a bit naff and it is concerning that Morton are closing in a bit. But let's just remember that Ian McCall had us losing to part-time Cove Rangers and in-freefall Hamilton Academical. If Ian McCall had had us five points better off than he did at that point in the season he wouldn't have been sacked. As ever the chosen starting and ending point for comparisons are relevant …..the end of the season is the time to do that. so far doolan has completely failed to put together a decent defence ……there is little evidence to date that he has rectified that problem which was the same under McCall. are you suggesting that if doolan finishes the season 5 points worse off than he finished last season he should be sacked ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: My Concern is that lack of a dedicated Fitness Coach - we seem to Flag later on in the Games - which tends to suggest heavy legs Our expectations are the Play Offs its as simple as that Its unlikely in any Season we will have the Cash to win the League outright - so it has to be Play Offs as a target Your point on fitness is well made …..there is a concern we are not as fit as other teams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: Which, two thirds of the season in, Doolan is in and McCall was out. It’s quite simple really. Kris Doolan is a better football manager than Ian McCall. That’s a brave statement and far too early to make unless you havnt watched our last three games…l 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: Kris Doolan is a better football manager than Ian McCall. An utterly absurd take. McCall did credible jobs with basket cases in Clydebank & Morton, pushed Thistle for promotion with Airdrie, set Falkirk on their way to promotion, took Dundee United to a top-6 finish & a League Cup final, saved Queen of the South from relegation and built the best Ayr United side in a generation. Doolan took over McCall's side and had a purple patch in the play-offs before imploding in Dingwall. He is a rookie manager - I really want him to do well but the Jury is still out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 19 minutes ago, Winter of '63 said: An utterly absurd take. McCall did credible jobs with basket cases in Clydebank & Morton, pushed Thistle for promotion with Airdrie, set Falkirk on their way to promotion, took Dundee United to a top-6 finish & a League Cup final, saved Queen of the South from relegation and built the best Ayr United side in a generation. Doolan took over McCall's side and had a purple patch in the play-offs before imploding in Dingwall. He is a rookie manager - I really want him to do well but the Jury is still out. You omitted that Ian McCall also got us relegated was also part of the cartel that was miles over budget and almost put our Club back into administration I’ll stick with Dools just now , who is obviously still learning but the signs are promising in terms of what he is building , giving a pathway to players like Stanway , McKenzie, Diack etc and also getting the best out of Aiden Fitzpatrick Would never have happened if Ian McCall was still around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, javeajag said: As ever the chosen starting and ending point for comparisons are relevant …..the end of the season is the time to do that. so far doolan has completely failed to put together a decent defence ……there is little evidence to date that he has rectified that problem which was the same under McCall. are you suggesting that if doolan finishes the season 5 points worse off than he finished last season he should be sacked ? Think if Doolan had Docherty, Holt , Tiff and Turner in the ranks we would probably be in a better position than we are just now . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 59 minutes ago, javeajag said: As ever the chosen starting and ending point for comparisons are relevant …..the end of the season is the time to do that. That's impossible to do when McCall didn't manage for the full season. 59 minutes ago, javeajag said: so far doolan has completely failed to put together a decent defence ……there is little evidence to date that he has rectified that problem which was the same under McCall. I agree this is a shortcoming of the current squad he's assembled. But it's notable that we've conceded fewer goals at the same stage in the season as last year. Not many fewer. But fewer. And scored more. And won more points. 59 minutes ago, javeajag said: are you suggesting that if doolan finishes the season 5 points worse off than he finished last season he should be sacked ? No. I'm pointing out that he's doing better than McCall was doing at the same point last season. With a smaller budget and while being a less experienced manager. The reasons for McCall's dismissal have to be judged in the context we then found ourselves. My point is that if he had kept Thistle in the play-off positions, and not lost to a bunch of jobber part-timers and a Hamilton in freefall, the reasons given by the Club Board at the time for dismissing him would have not made sense. As it was, he took us out of the playoffs, something Doolan improved-upon, with a points-per-game performance drastically better than that of McCall's and better than that of any of the other teams in the division. He has not done as well with his own squad as he did with McCall's (that I readily grant) but he's still, objectively, doing better with his own squad than McCall was doing with his. So far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 37 minutes ago, Winter of '63 said: An utterly absurd take. McCall did credible jobs with basket cases in Clydebank & Morton, pushed Thistle for promotion with Airdrie, set Falkirk on their way to promotion, took Dundee United to a top-6 finish & a League Cup final, saved Queen of the South from relegation and built the best Ayr United side in a generation. Doolan took over McCall's side and had a purple patch in the play-offs before imploding in Dingwall. He is a rookie manager - I really want him to do well but the Jury is still out. Ian McCall isn't anything like as good a manager now as he was in the distant past. He's not even as good a manager as he was 2 or 3 years ago. In his prime, clearly he was a very good manager (especially with Falkirk, somewhat so with Ayr United, less so with Dundee United where he had a large budget). But he isn't anymore. Which is why he's plying his trade with the team sitting in 42nd position in the Scottish football pyramid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 44 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: Ian McCall isn't anything like as good a manager now as he was in the distant past. He's not even as good a manager as he was 2 or 3 years ago. In his prime, clearly he was a very good manager (especially with Falkirk, somewhat so with Ayr United, less so with Dundee United where he had a large budget). But he isn't anymore. Which is why he's plying his trade with the team sitting in 42nd position in the Scottish football pyramid. So how do you suddenly become a “ bad manager” your statement is simply nonsense Success as a Manager carries a massive amount of luck - even Alex Ferguson was sacked at St Mirren -and was very close to being sacked at Man Utd Success is a combination of having a Good Board - a well organised set up off the park - a reasonable budget - strength of opposition- and Players gelling that you sign Archie was against Morton to get promoted into the Premier ( who ran us close ) Lambie was against Airdrie who were quite literally going bankrupt and they ran us to the wire ( funny enough managed by McCall) thats called luck of who your up against We have far more stability than we did under previous Boards- and are not carrying the threat of going bust hanging over the Club - so Dools has a massive advantage this Season McCall has had a decent career as both a Player and a Manager - and he is doing a decent job at Clyde -with zero money - he keeps them up - other Clubs will notice - thats Football As for Track Record - who had heard of lawrance Shankland before McCall got him for Ayr - go ask Steven Dobie who he owed is Career in the English Premier to ? Or Owen Coyle who managed in the English Premier Go ask Davie Moyes if he rates Colly as a Manager - Go ask Ross Wilson if he was more than happy to give us Rangers loan players because of Colly With the exception of Shankland Ive met everyone of the aforementioned -and they hold McCall in High Regard Because a Wee Clique from Munns & Twitter don't like him personally - you have decided he is a Bad Manager ? I like Dools - he is a decent guy - but he has a long way to go before he could lace McCalls Boots McCall replaced Dick Campbell and Gary Caldwell - he left us in a far stronger position than when he found us on both occasion Dools was starting from a strong base after McCall - wonder how he would have been replacing Dick or Caldwell ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, jlsarmy said: You omitted that Ian McCall also got us relegated was also part of the cartel that was miles over budget and almost put our Club back into administration I’ll stick with Dools just now , who is obviously still learning but the signs are promising in terms of what he is building , giving a pathway to players like Stanway , McKenzie, Diack etc and also getting the best out of Aiden Fitzpatrick Would never have happened if Ian McCall was still around. McCall was not part of any Cartel who nearly took us under thats simply not true - he has zero say in Club Finances thats the Boards job He was brought back by David Beattie then it was the Jlo Board which had nothing to do with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiledjag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, jlsarmy said: You omitted that Ian McCall also got us relegated How/when did McColl get us relegated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Norgethistle said: Flagging earlier is also down to game management, knowing when to break the game up and slow it down instead of running about daft for 90 minutes especially if you’re chasing it So I take it you have never watched Barca ? They run ( at pace) for 90 minutes - there movement off the ball is constant - there fitness levels are that of a 10,000m Runner If your flagging earlier -its down to fitness - you lose pace -and you lose concentration because your in Oxygen Debt ( less Oxygen to the Calves -less Oxygen to the Brian ) - you then lose Goals as a result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 8 minutes ago, exiledjag said: How/when did McColl get us relegated? He didnt keep us up after he replaced Caldwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 13 hours ago, Fawlty Towers said: When Graham's contract extension was announced in December it made mention of a player coach role so that might change the dynamic. The former Chairnman stated that getting in to the play offs was the target this season so assuming the board have not changed their thinking on that 4th (or better) would be meeting the target set. I think the target was reset as 3rd and not getting past Ross County in the cup,at least financially, for the AGM forecasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 (edited) Ian McCall was a good manager for us, on both occasions, in my opionion. In 40 years of watching Jags we have often crashed from one bad manager to another, from one crisis to another, always heading in the wrong direction. Derek Johnstone, Billy Lamont, Sandy Clark, Murdo MacLeod, Tommy Bryce, John McVeigh, Gerry Collins, Gerry Britton and Derek Whyte, Dick Campell, Gary Caldwell. John Lambie reversed the trend twice and is obviously a club legend. I would argue that Ian McCall is the one other person in that time who reversed the trend. Again, twice. He never completed the job like Lambie did, and is unsurprisingly (correctly) not held in the same esteem. But he stabilised the results and definitely set the foundations for the subsequent success of McMamara and Archie. And now we're moaning about sitting third in the table and arguing about whether Doolan has improved the team, just a few years after McCall took us on while desperately trying to stay in this league. It's all nuance though. If you're going to argue about whether someone is great or crap you're never going to come to a decent conclusion. Edited February 26 by allyo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 8 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: That's impossible to do when McCall didn't manage for the full season. This entire thread you have been making comparisons between the two…it’s far too early to judge doolan as a manager but if he doesn’t sort out our defence he won’t be here much longer 8 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: I agree this is a shortcoming of the current squad he's assembled. But it's notable that we've conceded fewer goals at the same stage in the season as last year. Not many fewer. But fewer. And scored more. And won more points. That’s very very poor……we are conceding 1.66 goals a game and our defence is a shambles …..you just can’t say what is obvious ……there has been no meaningful improvement in our defensive performance since doolan took over as manager that is the simple fact. in his post match interview he said after every defeat and setback we always bounce back……which is why we have conceded 9 goals in our last three goames and not won any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl1971 Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 Once again a bit of perspective for those getting over excited by our one league defeat....in 2024! We are still in third, albeit I agree we are not great defensively, offset by scoring plenty to a degree. We trounced RC a mere 3 weeks ago and ran Livingstone close. Two PL teams remember. I'm bored with the attempted comparisons between McCall and Doolan. We all know the background why certain posters bring that up ( always in periods of adversity of course.... ). No reason why we can't make the play offs, but if we don't that would be failure in my eyes. Equally if we make it that's success, this season for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lenziejag said: I think the target was reset as 3rd and not getting past Ross County in the cup,at least financially, for the AGM forecasts. McCall was sacked for not being in a position to get us promoted This was a target set by a previous Board - the New Board for some strange reason knowing the Finances from the previous Board they had inherited-took the bizarre decision- that the previous Boards logic and targets were realistic regards Football- knowing nothing of the previous discussions ( which seemed a bit too convenient in my view) It was then leaked out that McCall had a large player budget ( we have no idea of this was true or not ) it was then leaked out that “ how he spoke to the press” was an issue - there was a drip drip drip of attacks on McCall from “ influential fans” who seem to have a lot of say & a lot of knowledge on the running of PTFC the Nett Result was a desperation to sack him - and a dislike by certain groups which exists to this day - there were those involved in the decision who had there own Agenda - nothing to do with McCall's performance as a Manager they got the guy to give a rousing speech to supporters in hospitality as Directors stood and watched - known he had been sacked- why would you do that ? Anyone involved in the whole affair should be no where near the Club Managers get sacked - that's Football but the whole petty minded vendetta stinks to high heaven and says a lot of the Bowling Club Culture of Fan Ownership Edited February 26 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 5 minutes ago, dl1971 said: Once again a bit of perspective for those getting over excited by our one league defeat....in 2024! We are still in third, albeit I agree we are not great defensively, offset by scoring plenty to a degree. We trounced RC a mere 3 weeks ago and ran Livingstone close. Two PL teams remember. I'm bored with the attempted comparisons between McCall and Doolan. We all know the background why certain posters bring that up ( always in periods of adversity of course.... ). No reason why we can't make the play offs, but if we don't that would be failure in my eyes. Equally if we make it that's success, this season for me. If you care to check I questioned the fact we did not have a Fitness Coach - I didn't compare McCall to Doolan - others did that - I responded as the statement made was nonsense And my original statement on fitness still stands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 10 hours ago, jlsarmy said: Think if Doolan had Docherty, Holt , Tiff and Turner in the ranks we would probably be in a better position than we are just now . I actually think that Brownlie is as big a miss. During the run in he was very solid at left centre back when Holt had to move to left back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: If you care to check I questioned the fact we did not have a Fitness Coach - I didn't compare McCall to Doolan - others did that - I responded as the statement made was nonsense And my original statement on fitness still stands On 2/24/2024 at 9:45 AM, jagfox said: We only have Doolan, Paul McDonald, a fitness guy and KA as coaches in the backroom team. Seems a bit light compared to other clubs? Can one (or both) of you clarify? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 30 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: I actually think that Brownlie is as big a miss. During the run in he was very solid at left centre back when Holt had to move to left back. I agree. Slow as a carthorse on the ground, but commanding at set-pieces. We don't have that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 58 minutes ago, scotty said: Can one (or both) of you clarify? OK - a dedicated Fitness Coach will not be “ a Football Guy” they wont have any Football Coaching Skills whatsoever and likely to come from a different Sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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