Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
javeajag

Sena

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Are you for real , do you think Pates would have got his move to Dundee United and became an international player if Jackie Mac and Sid hadn’t coached him to be a defensive midfielder.

 

 

Yeah I think he would have went to Dundee United no problem.  Your memory is clearly hazy (no idea if that’s deliberate) but Paton was in the running for player of the year unde McCall on a couple of occasions.  First season alone was part of the squad finished second to st Johnstone and scored a cracking goal against them.  Was a mainstay of our team under McCall.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Getting away from the original question, improvement in players , we should be making our young players from the Academy better by coaching them and giving them a pathway to the first team , signing journeymen pros like Cammy Smith or Robbie Crawford surely can’t be our future.

I was actually pleased when we signed Smith because of what he had did for other clubs in the championship but agree he has been very disappointing and Crawford too.

more optimistic about the signings of Dowds and Milne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

Yeah I think he would have went to Dundee United no problem.  Your memory is clearly hazy (no idea if that’s deliberate) but Paton was in the running for player of the year unde McCall on a couple of occasions.  First season alone was part of the squad finished second to st Johnstone and scored a cracking goal against them.  Was a mainstay of our team under McCall.  

 

 

He would never have played international football as a full back or went to Dundee United either.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

He would never have played international football as a full back or went to Dundee United either.

Every chance he would.  Your just blinkered because you hate McCall 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

Every chance he would.  Your just blinkered because you hate McCall 

I don’t hate McCall , I just think at this moment we’re going nowhere under his tenure.

He’s been here almost 3 years now , got us relegated ( rightly or wrongly) , got us promoted although apart from the last 10 or so games in that league it wasn’t great .

Looking at that team since December it looks like there is going to be a rebuild again .

If you can tell me what kind of team McCall is building I would be interested.

Is it a team that play a pressing game , a team that plays on the counter - attack , a team that relies on pace to win games .

What system do we play 3 - 5 - 2  or 4-4-1-1

After the amount of transfer windows Ian McCall has had since he started , IMO  the stage we should be at is adding a couple of players to complete the jigsaw/ project 

If you’re honest we’re nowhere that just now .

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

We shouldn’t be writing off a 21 yr old player , if McCall was anywhere near a good coach his mindset would be to improve players.

Open question, if someone can tell me an improved player over the last few years that McCall has coached .

Time for a change , if you think of the improvement and influence that Jackie Mac and Simon Donnelly had at our Club when they started ATS , SOD’s , Paul Paton etc .

We need a manager/ coach of a similar standing to progress .

Plenty of players are released by clubs at 18, 19, 20 etc etc …..the issue is whether you believe they are good enough…..Sena is an unproven player at championship level…..I haven’t seen him at Montrose so I don’t know how well he’s done …..I’m going to make the assumption McCall and his staff have.

id love him to do well I should add.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Getting away from the original question, improvement in players , we should be making our young players from the Academy better by coaching them and giving them a pathway to the first team , signing journeymen pros like Cammy Smith or Robbie Crawford surely can’t be our future.

I’m not sure about the absolutism of your argument ……whilst I support an academy and the development of young players that can’t be the only source for players……Hamilton also sign players from other sources and one John lambic had some success by not having a youth policy ! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I’m not sure about the absolutism of your argument ……whilst I support an academy and the development of young players that can’t be the only source for players……Hamilton also sign players from other sources and one John lambic had some success by not having a youth policy ! 

Not the only source , but teams like Motherwell have a plan to bring youth through and that’s conveyed to their management team and part of their remit .

Your right in terms of terms it can’t just be that , teams like Motherwell have guys like Stephen O’Donnell to help nurture their young players coming through.

When Jackie Mac was starting out , there was experienced pros as well , Steven Craig etc 

At this moment as a Club I’m not really sure what our plan actually is .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not sure why people are getting so upset, manager says he isn’t up to par and can move on if he finds first team football. I’d give him a chance but we must have had people from our coaching staff watch his games for Alloa and they don’t see a future ? 
 

We have young player coming through I hope a few get a chance this season, it’s something that definitely needs to be used better because With out apparent Injury crisis There’s a few lads like Lyon’s, Ocholi and Owens. Who id have rather seen playing than certain people we had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

Yeah he did actually improve him he was a young lad at Queen’s Park before McCall signed him and turned him into one of the better defenders

One of our best completely one footed defenders? 

Not unrelated to this season's team imbalance where McKenna has the whole right wing to himself. McCall used to pair Paton as an orthodox right back, who rarely crossed the halfway line, with Twaddle, a natural wingback who spent as much of his time in the opposition's half. McCall does like a lopsided set up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything is relative in life and football managers are no exception. McCall has his faults but how does he compare to his competitors?

This season in the championship the only teams in front of us are ICT, Arbroath and Kilmarnock. I don't think anyone wants Dick Campbell back or seriously believes Dodds is better than McCall. Arguably McInness is a better manager but he's also out of price range. Below us in the championship there is McGlynn (now at Falkirk), Imrie, Taylor, Bullen, Hughes and Gibson. Only Imrie has shown any potential but then again he has only been in post a few months 

In the premiership you have McGhee, Davidson, Martindale, Robinson, Goodwin, Alexander, Mackay, McCourt and  Neilson. (I'll leave out the managers of the 2 arse cheeks as they are totally unaffordable) Looking at those names which is clearly a better bet than McCall? Neilson, maybe Martindale, possibly Goodwin and then after that it looks slim pickings to me.

In the leagues below us the managers with potential are Petrie, Murray, Thomson and Hartley. Hartley and Murray have been tried at a higher level and been found wanting. Petrie seems to have hit a ceiling with Montrose and Thomson has had the advantage of a big cheque book. So no obvious candidate there.

Then we are onto taking someone currently out of work. Not many names there that would be definitely better and most are out of work because they have tried and failed on more than one occasion. Jack Ross is the name most clubs would fancy but can't afford and we most definetly can't afford.

That leaves taking a chance on someone wanting to cut their teeth. If we were to go for a Scott Brown type then I fear we are more likely to repeat the Derek Johnstone experience than the Jackie McNamara experience.

This has to be one of the worst era's for managerial talent in recent memory. There just aren't any real alternatives. As a club we really need to look at how grow our own.  Brian Graham could be that guy in a couple of years but he's not ready just now and if he does become the next manager it will be in part down to McCall in the same way McNamara was ready to step up last time. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2022 at 10:55 AM, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Ok I'll accept that's a fair point and I apologise to BH for my wording re off the field issues. I also accept that BH has every right to gloat over Sena being deemed surplus to requirements. In retrospect I should just have ignored his/her post. 

On the subject of Sena I feel it's unfortunate his strongest position is also the position where we already have two certain starters in Docherty and Bannigan. Having had a successful loan spell at Alloa, where he's been playing virtually every game, Sena probably needs to move on to ensure adequate game time for further development. Unlike BH I don't consider that means the player is in any way a dud.

Agree with this. Perhaps though Bannigan and Docherty shouldn't be certain starters!

Re Sena. He has never struck me as a future star and to be honest I always felt quite neutral about him. If he stays at Firhill I think  he would make the bench but not get much game time. Suspect its in his own interest to leave for the reasons stated by IMC. I will say though that any time I have seen him I have never doubted his commitment to the Jersey and the team and that is a big point for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, laukat said:

Everything is relative in life and football managers are no exception. McCall has his faults but how does he compare to his competitors?

This season in the championship the only teams in front of us are ICT, Arbroath and Kilmarnock. I don't think anyone wants Dick Campbell back or seriously believes Dodds is better than McCall. Arguably McInness is a better manager but he's also out of price range. Below us in the championship there is McGlynn (now at Falkirk), Imrie, Taylor, Bullen, Hughes and Gibson. Only Imrie has shown any potential but then again he has only been in post a few months 

In the premiership you have McGhee, Davidson, Martindale, Robinson, Goodwin, Alexander, Mackay, McCourt and  Neilson. (I'll leave out the managers of the 2 arse cheeks as they are totally unaffordable) Looking at those names which is clearly a better bet than McCall? Neilson, maybe Martindale, possibly Goodwin and then after that it looks slim pickings to me.

In the leagues below us the managers with potential are Petrie, Murray, Thomson and Hartley. Hartley and Murray have been tried at a higher level and been found wanting. Petrie seems to have hit a ceiling with Montrose and Thomson has had the advantage of a big cheque book. So no obvious candidate there.

Then we are onto taking someone currently out of work. Not many names there that would be definitely better and most are out of work because they have tried and failed on more than one occasion. Jack Ross is the name most clubs would fancy but can't afford and we most definetly can't afford.

That leaves taking a chance on someone wanting to cut their teeth. If we were to go for a Scott Brown type then I fear we are more likely to repeat the Derek Johnstone experience than the Jackie McNamara experience.

This has to be one of the worst era's for managerial talent in recent memory. There just aren't any real alternatives. As a club we really need to look at how grow our own.  Brian Graham could be that guy in a couple of years but he's not ready just now and if he does become the next manager it will be in part down to McCall in the same way McNamara was ready to step up last time. 

 

I think that you have summarised exactly why we do need to go for a "Scott Brown type". Just going down the tried and tested route we are only ever going to get someone who has failed at another club. You know as soon as they join that it is only ever going to end (as it will eventually with McCall) in a sacking or resignation, probably costing the club financially.  Anyone with any good track record would be out of our price range or looking at a Premier League club rather than us.

The other advantage of someone like Scott Brown, or Andrew Considine if he has done his badges, or another ex player is that they could be a player manager and thus cover 2 roles with one salary. Obviously he would need an experienced assistant, but as we already have 2 of them, that could be another salary saved. If they turn out to be a success, they are likely to move to bigger and better things bringing in cash.

For what it's worth, my preferred option last time would have been Kenny Miller (like Brown another of my least favorite Scotland players) for precisely those reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, javeajag said:

Ah remember all those extolling the abilities of John Hughes …..

I don't remember that. In my mind Hughes is the "Boris Johnson" of Scottish Football. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I think that you have summarised exactly why we do need to go for a "Scott Brown type". Just going down the tried and tested route we are only ever going to get someone who has failed at another club. You know as soon as they join that it is only ever going to end (as it will eventually with McCall) in a sacking or resignation, probably costing the club financially.  Anyone with any good track record would be out of our price range or looking at a Premier League club rather than us.

The other advantage of someone like Scott Brown, or Andrew Considine if he has done his badges, or another ex player is that they could be a player manager and thus cover 2 roles with one salary. Obviously he would need an experienced assistant, but as we already have 2 of them, that could be another salary saved. If they turn out to be a success, they are likely to move to bigger and better things bringing in cash.

For what it's worth, my preferred option last time would have been Kenny Miller (like Brown another of my least favorite Scotland players) for precisely those reasons.

I think Kenny Miller shows the problem in going for an experienced pro. Miller's work ethic as 40 year old playing for us what second to none and with the playing career he had you would think he would be a solid bet to be a decent manager. However he's had a short lived failed attempt at Livi and struggled badly as part of the management team at Falkirk.

Its a big ask for an ex-pro to come in with no experience and hit the ground running. To my mind they have a better chance when they are on the coaching staff and get promoted from within or started at a lower level and worked their way up. 

To me Championship level is too high for most to jump in as they struggle with budget management, contract management, coaching and first team performance whereas at a part-time club they have time during the week to fit in other activities around limited training slots.

Nowadays when a large club appoints an ex-pro its usually as first team coach rather than manager. They then either put in a director of football or chief exec to deal with player contracts, budgets etc which at least attempts to lessen the load. However for a club like Thistle and any other Championship club we can't afford a Director of football without it impacting massively on the playing budget. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

I don't remember that. In my mind Hughes is the "Boris Johnson" of Scottish Football. 

McGhee with his love of publicity must be “Nadine Dorries” 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I think that you have summarised exactly why we do need to go for a "Scott Brown type". Just going down the tried and tested route we are only ever going to get someone who has failed at another club. You know as soon as they join that it is only ever going to end (as it will eventually with McCall) in a sacking or resignation, probably costing the club financially.  Anyone with any good track record would be out of our price range or looking at a Premier League club rather than us.

The other advantage of someone like Scott Brown, or Andrew Considine if he has done his badges, or another ex player is that they could be a player manager and thus cover 2 roles with one salary. Obviously he would need an experienced assistant, but as we already have 2 of them, that could be another salary saved. If they turn out to be a success, they are likely to move to bigger and better things bringing in cash.

For what it's worth, my preferred option last time would have been Kenny Miller (like Brown another of my least favorite Scotland players) for precisely those reasons.

"Player-Manager" instantly makes me think of pie-filled, obese Derek Johnstone and a totally out of shape  and out-of-ideas Murder McLeod, not to mention insignificant (as a player and a manager) Tommy Bryce.

No thank you; you're either a player, or a manager! 

Now, Davie McParland never went with the pretence of thinking he was still a player.......

Edited by Jaggernaut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

"Player-Manager" instantly makes me think of pie-filled, obese Derek Johnstone and a totally out of shape  and out-of-ideas Murder McLeod, not to mention insignificant (as a player and a manager) Tommy Bryce.

No thank you; you're either a player, or a manager! 

Now, Davie McParland never went with the pretence of thinking he was still a player.......

Archibald was technically a player-manager at first- although I don't think he ever picked himself for the first team again

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, laukat said:

I think Kenny Miller shows the problem in going for an experienced pro. Miller's work ethic as 40 year old playing for us what second to none and with the playing career he had you would think he would be a solid bet to be a decent manager. However he's had a short lived failed attempt at Livi and struggled badly as part of the management team at Falkirk.

Its a big ask for an ex-pro to come in with no experience and hit the ground running. To my mind they have a better chance when they are on the coaching staff and get promoted from within or started at a lower level and worked their way up. 

To me Championship level is too high for most to jump in as they struggle with budget management, contract management, coaching and first team performance whereas at a part-time club they have time during the week to fit in other activities around limited training slots.

Nowadays when a large club appoints an ex-pro its usually as first team coach rather than manager. They then either put in a director of football or chief exec to deal with player contracts, budgets etc which at least attempts to lessen the load. However for a club like Thistle and any other Championship club we can't afford a Director of football without it impacting massively on the playing budget. 

Weren't Britton and Whyte joint player managers or 1st team player coaches?  Either way it didn't work out well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Player Manager can work, but like any appointment, it has to be the right man. Kenny Dalgleish at Liverpool is a good example of one that did work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

Archibald was technically a player-manager at first- although I don't think he ever picked himself for the first team again

Correct 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, fifexile said:

Weren't Britton and Whyte joint player managers or 1st team player coaches?  Either way it didn't work out well. 

If I recall correctly they were joint managers but neither had really done any coaching prior to us appointing them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×