The Jags Foundation

[fifexile]

1 hour ago, Mr Bunny said:

How does the member numbering work? I've recently joined and I'm 1654?  Just curious, I'm chuffed to see we can definitely commit the £10,000 a month.

Think they said before that they don't reuse numbers if the membership lapses

[Jaggernaut]

3 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Over and above that, the only type of income TJF has at the moment that counts towards the VAT limit is the sale of Thistle Pins.

 

Pin money?:

"a small sum of money for spending on inessentials"

Let's hope we can do better than that!

[Woodstock Jag]

2 hours ago, Mr Bunny said:

How does the member numbering work? I've recently joined and I'm 1654?  Just curious, I'm chuffed to see we can definitely commit the £10,000 a month.

So the numbers are (mostly) automated.

Whenever someone completes the sign-up form, it allocates a new number. By default, it doesn't re-use a number of a lapsed member. Sometimes there are bugs which cause numbers to be skipped too. If someone lapses and rejoins, we reactivate their original membership number, but that then leaves their new number vacant.

So essentially, your number doesn't tell you very much about how many members we have. The highest membership number right now is 1805, but we have only 1567 active members.

Either way, monthly revenue now exceeds our fundraising target, but we also need a buffer to cover operating expenses and to enable us to do things over and above the Club pledge (like hosting members events, working capital for Thistle Pins, sponsoring the women's team, helping Jags For Good/PT Charitable Trust etc.

We also want to be able to provide more support to the Club around the time of the transfer windows, but that will depend on building a prudent buffer first. The more folk pledge, the easier that is to do.

[madcapmilkdrinker]

Does TJF have access to PTFC’s databases of season ticket holders etc? A rich membership seam to mine there. (Acknowledging that Europe’s data and privacy laws are way more stringent than in Australia.)

[Bobbyhouston]

32 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

So the numbers are (mostly) automated.

Whenever someone completes the sign-up form, it allocates a new number. By default, it doesn't re-use a number of a lapsed member. Sometimes there are bugs which cause numbers to be skipped too. If someone lapses and rejoins, we reactivate their original membership number, but that then leaves their new number vacant.

So essentially, your number doesn't tell you very much about how many members we have. The highest membership number right now is 1805, but we have only 1567 active members.

Either way, monthly revenue now exceeds our fundraising target, but we also need a buffer to cover operating expenses and to enable us to do things over and above the Club pledge (like hosting members events, working capital for Thistle Pins, sponsoring the women's team, helping Jags For Good/PT Charitable Trust etc.

We also want to be able to provide more support to the Club around the time of the transfer windows, but that will depend on building a prudent buffer first. The more folk pledge, the easier that is to do.

That’s one way of losing members, simply if they want to play they need to be self funded 

[Garscube Road End 2]

4 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

Thanks WJ. Although, there isn’t much TJF can do about it, I wonder if there is someone in the treasury arguing that all of the donation should be vatable. If it doesn’t suit the Tories to do it, you can bet it will suit Labour if they win. 

Why drag politics into this?

[Lenziejag]

5 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

As I say, there are literally thousands of membership organisations that operate on this model for VAT purposes, and have done so for decades.

I am sure there are. It was just an observation that, as it stands, only £1 of each donation is counted towards the VAT limit. That could change at any time at the whim of the government, whatever the colour, and that could affect the amount of money that is available to go to the club.

[Lenziejag]

57 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

Why drag politics into this?

I wasn’t dragging politics into. I was pointing out that a change in VAT law could change the amount of money that TJF had available to distribute. Might be worth having a look to see if there are alternatives in case that happens ? If time and resources allow.

[Garscube Road End 2]

Of course you did. By the mere mention of 2 political parties.

[Lenziejag]

33 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

Of course you did. By the mere mention of 2 political parties.

Ok. The point was,as I said,that if the law is changed to make the whole donation vatable, that makes a huge difference to TJF’s ability to keep its commitment to the club.

[Garscube Road End 2]

18 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Ok. The point was,as I said,that if the law is changed to make the whole donation vatable, that makes a huge difference to TJF’s ability to keep its commitment to the club.

Fair enough.

[CotterJag]

Feel like I've missed something here.

What are these 'Thistle Pins' that people keep mentioning?

[East Kent Jag II]

On 7/6/2023 at 4:20 PM, Lenziejag said:

Ok. The point was,as I said,that if the law is changed to make the whole donation vatable, that makes a huge difference to TJF’s ability to keep its commitment to the club.

The bulk of the payment is a freely given donation, for no return. It is outside the scope of the tax, as there is no supply of goods, or services  for a consideration. It would not make any difference  to the sum the club would receive- only where the cash comes from. The current standard rate is 20%, so 20/ 120 would be the VAT output tax payable  by TJF. The club use the cash ( less TJF output tax) for making taxable supplies (VAT being chargeable on the club's income from entrance charges, etc) so the VAT charged by TJF is recoverable by the club as PTFC input tax, as the TJF cash is fully used by the club in the furtherance of making taxable supplies, as outlined above. Any (extremely unlikely) change to the Exempt Schedule to the VAT Act wouldn’t in reality make any difference.  Indeed TJF would be in the position of recovering VAT on their "standard rated" membership fees. There would of course be more complex bookkeeping needed by TJF.  Unlikely to happen.  The charity sector is very good in lobbying for the Exempt Schedule not to change.

Edited July 10, 2023 by East Kent Jag II
Addition in bold.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, CotterJag said:

Feel like I've missed something here.

What are these 'Thistle Pins' that people keep mentioning?

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/news/thistle-pins/

[scotty]

45 minutes ago, East Kent Jag II said:

It would not make any difference  to the sum the club would receive- only where the cash comes from. The current standard rate is 20%, so 20/ 120 would be the VAT output tax payable  by TJF. The club use the cash ( less TJF output tax) for making taxable supplies (VAT being chargeable on the club's income from entrance charges, etc) so the VAT charged by TJF is recoverable by the club as PTFC input tax, as the TJF cash is fully used by the club in the furtherance of making taxable supplies, as outlined above. Any (extremely unlikely) change to the Exempt Schedule to the VAT Act wouldn’t in reality make any difference.  Indeed TJF would be in the position of recovering VAT on their "standard rated" membership fees. There would of course be more complex bookkeeping needed by TJF.  Unlikely to happen.  The charity sector is very good in lobbying for the Exempt Schedule not to change.

Sounds a bit like the offside rule!

[Lenziejag]

47 minutes ago, East Kent Jag II said:

It would not make any difference  to the sum the club would receive- only where the cash comes from. The current standard rate is 20%, so 20/ 120 would be the VAT output tax payable  by TJF. The club use the cash ( less TJF output tax) for making taxable supplies (VAT being chargeable on the club's income from entrance charges, etc) so the VAT charged by TJF is recoverable by the club as PTFC input tax, as the TJF cash is fully used by the club in the furtherance of making taxable supplies, as outlined above. Any (extremely unlikely) change to the Exempt Schedule to the VAT Act wouldn’t in reality make any difference.  Indeed TJF would be in the position of recovering VAT on their "standard rated" membership fees. There would of course be more complex bookkeeping needed by TJF.  Unlikely to happen.  The charity sector is very good in lobbying for the Exempt Schedule not to change.

That’s good.

[partickthedog]

1 hour ago, East Kent Jag II said:

It would not make any difference  to the sum the club would receive- only where the cash comes from. The current standard rate is 20%, so 20/ 120 would be the VAT output tax payable  by TJF. The club use the cash ( less TJF output tax) for making taxable supplies (VAT being chargeable on the club's income from entrance charges, etc) so the VAT charged by TJF is recoverable by the club as PTFC input tax, as the TJF cash is fully used by the club in the furtherance of making taxable supplies, as outlined above. Any (extremely unlikely) change to the Exempt Schedule to the VAT Act wouldn’t in reality make any difference.  Indeed TJF would be in the position of recovering VAT on their "standard rated" membership fees. There would of course be more complex bookkeeping needed by TJF.  Unlikely to happen.  The charity sector is very good in lobbying for the Exempt Schedule not to change.

Nothing against your post. I keep thinking that I ought to be able to understand VAT, but I never can!

[Woodstock Jag]

5 hours ago, madcapmilkdrinker said:

Does TJF have access to PTFC’s databases of season ticket holders etc? A rich membership seam to mine there. (Acknowledging that Europe’s data and privacy laws are way more stringent than in Australia.)

Short answer is no. GDPR prevents this, as consent given to contact season ticket holders in relation to their purchase of a season ticket doesn't then transfer to consent to be contacted by third parties, without separate consent.

[East Kent Jag II]

9 minutes ago, partickthedog said:

Nothing against your post. I keep thinking that I ought to be able to understand VAT, but I never can!

"VATis a simple tax." Anthony Barber, Chancellor of the Exchequer on April Fools Day 1973. 😄

[Woodstock Jag]

3 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

I am sure there are. It was just an observation that, as it stands, only £1 of each donation is counted towards the VAT limit. That could change at any time at the whim of the government, whatever the colour, and that could affect the amount of money that is available to go to the club.

 

3 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

I wasn’t dragging politics into. I was pointing out that a change in VAT law could change the amount of money that TJF had available to distribute. Might be worth having a look to see if there are alternatives in case that happens ? If time and resources allow.

 

2 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

Ok. The point was,as I said,that if the law is changed to make the whole donation vatable, that makes a huge difference to TJF’s ability to keep its commitment to the club.

If it provides you with any comfort here, we took extensive advice from a VAT specialist earlier this year specifically with a view to ensuring our structure was as well protected as possible against VAT registration.

VAT registration would have a negative impact on the revenue TJF could raise (since 20% of our VATtable transactions would be owed in VAT). However, as East Kent Jag correctly points out, we would also be able to recover VAT on any VATtable goods and services we buy (e.g. Thistle Pins acquisition, VAT on hire of venues for events etc).

It is extremely unlikely that either (a) entirely voluntary donations given by members to members organisations or (b) entirely voluntary donations from limited companies to other limited companies will come to be regarded as VATtable transactions any time soon. Such changes would utterly decimate the voluntary and charitable sector, and probably wouldn't raise the Treasury much additional money.

[partickthedog]

5 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

So the numbers are (mostly) automated.

Whenever someone completes the sign-up form, it allocates a new number. By default, it doesn't re-use a number of a lapsed member. Sometimes there are bugs which cause numbers to be skipped too. If someone lapses and rejoins, we reactivate their original membership number, but that then leaves their new number vacant.

So essentially, your number doesn't tell you very much about how many members we have. The highest membership number right now is 1805, but we have only 1567 active members.

Either way, monthly revenue now exceeds our fundraising target, but we also need a buffer to cover operating expenses and to enable us to do things over and above the Club pledge (like hosting members events, working capital for Thistle Pins, sponsoring the women's team, helping Jags For Good/PT Charitable Trust etc.

We also want to be able to provide more support to the Club around the time of the transfer windows, but that will depend on building a prudent buffer first. The more folk pledge, the easier that is to do.

I think that there are no limits to WJ's membership number ambitions.

I have just signed up for a Kingsley Pin. I was asked to enter my TJF membership number, which I did, all 3 digits. I was told that there were still 1997 spaces (i.e. for more numbers) available. How many zillions of potential TJF members is that? TJF members could reach to the Andromeda Galaxy and back again.

[Woodstock Jag]

11 minutes ago, partickthedog said:

I think that there are no limits to WJ's membership number ambitions.

I have just signed up for a Kingsley Pin. I was asked to enter my TJF membership number, which I did, all 3 digits. I was told that there were still 1997 spaces (i.e. for more numbers) available. How many zillions of potential TJF members is that? TJF members could reach to the Andromeda Galaxy and back again.

I can neither confirm nor deny that TJF has held hostage the ghost John Lambie tickets from the Ayr first leg.

[Lenziejag]

15 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

 

 

If it provides you with any comfort here, we took extensive advice from a VAT specialist earlier this year specifically with a view to ensuring our structure was as well protected as possible against VAT registration.

VAT registration would have a negative impact on the revenue TJF could raise (since 20% of our VATtable transactions would be owed in VAT). However, as East Kent Jag correctly points out, we would also be able to recover VAT on any VATtable goods and services we buy (e.g. Thistle Pins acquisition, VAT on hire of venues for events etc).

It is extremely unlikely that either (a) entirely voluntary donations given by members to members organisations or (b) entirely voluntary donations from limited companies to other limited companies will come to be regarded as VATtable transactions any time soon. Such changes would utterly decimate the voluntary and charitable sector, and probably wouldn't raise the Treasury much additional money.

I am sure TJF did all the things you said. However, I don’t have as much faith as you or East Kent Jag that unlikely things won’t happen. 
 

[CotterJag]

2 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/news/thistle-pins/

Very good. Cheers

[CotterJag]

1 hour ago, partickthedog said:

I think that there are no limits to WJ's membership number ambitions.

I have just signed up for a Kingsley Pin. I was asked to enter my TJF membership number, which I did, all 3 digits. I was told that there were still 1997 spaces (i.e. for more numbers) available. How many zillions of potential TJF members is that? TJF members could reach to the Andromeda Galaxy and back again.

Maybe we could fill some of those extra spaces by having an unofficial alliance with another PTFC that seem to share some of our values. Portland Timbers FC.

Unlike one of our near neighbours, they list integrity as a goal of theirs. An exchange trip to Oregon for the Thistle youth academy etc. It's all a dream.

https://www.timbers.com/club/ptfc-way/

Found them while searching for Thistle videos on Youtube