Lenziejag Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 38 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: I’m not “supporting” them. As TJF explained on Monday morning, we were critical of their decision to overshadow Sunday’s game with the timing of the announcement. I still think they got that wrong. I’m simply saying that there’s a reasonable argument for relieving the management team of its duties at this point in the season: a respectable footballing argument that also makes sense financially given reasonable assumptions, in the context of Doolan being appointed interim manager. Let us not forget that the outgoing manager had presided over back-to-back home defeats against the two worst teams in the league, had openly “chucked it” on the league title itself (usually managers aren’t that candid to be fair) and his team was significantly underperforming league performance relative to what was widely accepted as being at least the second best resourced player budget in the league back in the summer. That budget may subsequently have been overtaken but I don’t see much evidence of a splurge by Ayr, Morton, QP or Dundee. Do you? I was commenting on here, as a fan, several days before McCall’s sacking that I thought people’s excuses about his squad carrying injuries was a sideshow. My view hasn’t changed: that the case for a change is finely balanced but that things were going stale and that, as long as the replacement doesn’t end up costing significantly more, a change is justifiable. It would have been much harder to justify bringing someone in externally, because that would have cost a lot more, and provided no guarantee of improved performance to pay for itself. The problem with this is that you don’t know the financial implications. Defeats happen. Hamilton have improved significantly since the turn of the year. If McCall was sacked for “chucking it”, then fine, why sack the other 3 too.He also said the cup game didn’t matter a jot. However, the performance didn’t reflect that. I see no benefit in making this decision now - financial or footballing wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 25 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: But despite all that - still one point off the Play Off Spot with a Third of the Season to Go - I have never seen a management Team sacked in a similar position One point off and on a very obvious downward trajectory. Ian McCall has form for starting a season strongly then fading away. His only notable exceptions to this in the last 15 years have been in the third tier. Managers get sacked all the time mid-season when the Club Board perceives a season target has become unachievable or unlikely to be achieved. McCall isn’t special here. 25 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: - changing Managers for a Board is one of the most risky decisions they can make and they only do it when all avenues have failed - to have this done by an Interim Board ? A Board is a Board is a Board. You know that as well as I do Jim. The fact that this one had to be assembled at short notice and is intended to be transitional doesn’t change that. You wouldn’t have said it shouldn’t be making any player budget decisions in January “because its only provisional”. McCall certainly wouldn’t have liked being told he couldn’t extend Hodson’s contract or bring in McAvoy on loan “because it’s an interim board” would he? Interim boards are temporary but they still need to be prepared to make footballing decisions during a football season. Scottish Football doesn’t stop because “Partick Thistle isnae ready”. If you have issues with temporary custodians taking these decisions while finding their feet mid-season take it up with the 7 people who resigned from the Board in December, forcing the new owners into the position of having to put something else in its place. 25 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: And to do it whilst still clearly in contention - with No Obvious replacement us well - very unusual to be polite We aren’t “still clearly in contention”. We are out of the race for first and at most “probably” still in contention for promotion. 25 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: So what would have happened if we beat Rangers ? Or was that not factored in ? Ask the Club Board. 25 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: What if Morton had been Beat ? Ask the Club Board. 25 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: It all seems poorly thought out - as for how it was executed - Words Fail me You’re angry because your mate is on the receiving end and you rate him as a manager more than other people do. That’s all this is here Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 13 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: The problem with this is that you don’t know the financial implications. Only in the sense that no one here has a crystal ball about the final league standings. An educated judgment has to be taken. People simply disagree about the balance there. In the sense of individual positions in the league we absolutely do know the financial implications because the prize money distribution is public domain information. 13 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: Defeats happen. In the entire existence of a 10 team, 36 game second tier, a team has been promoted with more than 10 league defeats in a season twice. We’ve already lost 10 games and there’s 1/3 of the season to go. Defeats to teams averaging a point a game or less, at home, is not the form of a promotion-chasing team. It’s the form of a team looking over its shoulder. 13 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: Hamilton have improved significantly since the turn of the year. If McCall was sacked for “chucking it”, then fine, why sack the other 3 too.He also said the cup game didn’t matter a jot. However, the performance didn’t reflect that. I see no benefit in making this decision now - financial or footballing wise. And that’s fine. You’re entitled to those opinions. They, the Club Board, clearly disagree with you. But their decision isn’t wild. It’s well within the range of decisions any board would have considered taking given where we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibble Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 26 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: Only in the sense that no one here has a crystal ball about the final league standings. An educated judgment has to be taken. People simply disagree about the balance there. In the sense of individual positions in the league we absolutely do know the financial implications because the prize money distribution is public domain information. In the entire existence of a 10 team, 36 game second tier, a team has been promoted with more than 10 league defeats in a season twice. We’ve already lost 10 games and there’s 1/3 of the season to go. Defeats to teams averaging a point a game or less, at home, is not the form of a promotion-chasing team. It’s the form of a team looking over its shoulder. And that’s fine. You’re entitled to those opinions. They, the Club Board, clearly disagree with you. But their decision isn’t wild. It’s well within the range of decisions any board would have considered taking given where we are. Of course the board are within their rights to make the decision but I think the (very inexperienced interim) board have made a wrong decision and I fear the worst for the rest of the season but hope I’m wrong . Interestingly the more experienced boards of raith rovers and ICT despite having had very poor runs chose to stick with their managers. The championship is a crazy league- win 3 games in a row and your back in it. Ask yourself do you really think Doolan has a better chance of doing that with a group of players many of whom will be very cheesed off 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Col Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 12 minutes ago, dibble said: Of course the board are within their rights to make the decision but I think the (very inexperienced interim) board have made a wrong decision and I fear the worst for the rest of the season but hope I’m wrong . Interestingly the more experienced boards of raith rovers and ICT despite having had very poor runs chose to stick with their managers. The championship is a crazy league- win 3 games in a row and your back in it. Ask yourself do you really think Doolan has a better chance of doing that with a group of players many of whom will be very cheesed off Why will they be cheesed off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanieD Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 It would be nice to hope that the new team management will have a more auspicious start to their tenure than the new board has had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibble Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Big Col said: Why will they be cheesed off? Many of them have been signed and have previously played under McCall and I would imagine are very loyal not to mention many are out of contract at end of the season and may have thoughts on where next rather than playing under a first time manager who is only an interim . Edited February 15, 2023 by dibble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 16 minutes ago, dibble said: Many of them have been signed and have previously played under McCall and I would imagine are very loyal not to mention many are out of contract at end of the season and may have thoughts on where next rather than playing under a first time manager who is only an interim . Every football team changes manager from time to time. The players are professional and will want to play to enhance their chances of getting contract extensions. I think you are doing a disservice to Doolan to assume there will be a mass exodus. He is a club legend and has his coaching badges. He is also Thistle through & through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hosie Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Words Fail me Having made multiple posts, albeit pretty much all saying the same thing, words clearly don't fail you. 😂 Edited February 15, 2023 by Tom Hosie 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: One point off and on a very obvious downward trajectory. Ian McCall has form for starting a season strongly then fading away. His only notable exceptions to this in the last 15 years have been in the third tier. Managers get sacked all the time mid-season when the Club Board perceives a season target has become unachievable or unlikely to be achieved. McCall isn’t special here. A Board is a Board is a Board. You know that as well as I do Jim. The fact that this one had to be assembled at short notice and is intended to be transitional doesn’t change that. You wouldn’t have said it shouldn’t be making any player budget decisions in January “because its only provisional”. McCall certainly wouldn’t have liked being told he couldn’t extend Hodson’s contract or bring in McAvoy on loan “because it’s an interim board” would he? Interim boards are temporary but they still need to be prepared to make footballing decisions during a football season. Scottish Football doesn’t stop because “Partick Thistle isnae ready”. If you have issues with temporary custodians taking these decisions while finding their feet mid-season take it up with the 7 people who resigned from the Board in December, forcing the new owners into the position of having to put something else in its place. We aren’t “still clearly in contention”. We are out of the race for first and at most “probably” still in contention for promotion. Ask the Club Board. Ask the Club Board. You’re angry because your mate is on the receiving end and you rate him as a manager more than other people do. That’s all this is here Jim. Ok - So I have this right I have questioned the fact that the current Board are willing to accept targets and player budgets set by the previous Board to sack the Management Team - whilst simultaneously questioning other aspects of the previous Budgets I have questioned the fact that the measurement of failure is one point outside the Play Off Spot with a Third of the Season to go - which is highly unusual I have questioned the fact that an interim inexperienced Board seem in a great rush to make decisions on dismissing the Management Team whilst most Boards would exercise caution I have questioned the fact that our Plan B is a Rookie Manager and that finances are unlikely to allow anything beyond this I have questioned the fact that according to the Press the dismissal decision was already made without factoring in either the Rangers Result being a Win or Morton getting beat My sole Motivation is that Im angry that because Ian McCall is a Friend -and therefore all aforementioned Questions have no substance ( despite other posters expressing similar concerns ) Yet my Friendship with Ian McCall isnt a secret - Ive actually known him from when he played in Hong Kong when I worked there I admire your spirited defence of all of the decisions -and your faith that they are all correct without question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G13 jag Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 22 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Doesnt detract from the fact that a point off a play off spot with a third of the Season to go is deemed a sackable offence and that replacement with someone with zero experience is deemed a better option As Ive said we miss out on a Play Off Spot -the Board Resigns The present board should not be in place. I’m repeating myself - but the ceo was involved with the board and ptfc trust, the chair was involved with everything, the 2 ptfc trust board members were there because of the previous board. Why have us fans allowed this to continue? We had them . We should have demanded the removal of the entire berated. This present board have no right to make these decisions 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 15, 2023 Report Share Posted February 15, 2023 30 minutes ago, G13 jag said: The present board should not be in place. I’m repeating myself - but the ceo was involved with the board and ptfc trust, the chair was involved with everything, the 2 ptfc trust board members were there because of the previous board. Why have us fans allowed this to continue? We had them . We should have demanded the removal of the entire berated. This present board have no right to make these decisions I'm curious as to who you think should have been appointed as Directors in December if not people chosen by the majority shareholder? There was no functioning fan ownership model in early December 2022. There was no mechanism in place for the fans to exert democratic control over the PTFC Trust. They did not even have a contact list of their existing beneficiaries. Who were they supposed to appoint, exactly, and who were they supposed to reach out to, when 7 of the 8 board members had just stormed off in a petulant huff over a fan protest and some awkward questions about the annual accounts they'd just signed off? This interim board, as was explained at the outset, was specifically assembled to provide breathing space up to the end of the season to allow essential business decisions (footballing and financial) to continue to be taken. This was an inescapable arrangement while the ownership situation was worked on by the Trust's Short-Life Working Group. The Working Group was, let's not forget, a broad cross-section of fans which met in their spare time, between Christmas and New Year, to develop proposals. Those proposals have had to be considered and fed-back on by the Trust, and the fans were given an update to that effect less than a month ago, indicating that the next major staging post would be mid-February. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 7 hours ago, javeajag said: Interim board led by interim chairman appoints interim manager …. It’s all a bit interim Get interim, Jags! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 4 hours ago, sandy said: Every football team changes manager from time to time. The players are professional and will want to play to enhance their chances of getting contract extensions. I think you are doing a disservice to Doolan to assume there will be a mass exodus. He is a club legend and has his coaching badges. He is also Thistle through & through. Yes, but how good is the Doolmeister at creating and handling a high-pressure Powerpoint presentation? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcapmilkdrinker Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 All I know is that the events of the weekend finally made me join TJF. It’s the only way forward for a club like ours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Ok - So I have this right I have questioned the fact that the current Board are willing to accept targets and player budgets set by the previous Board to sack the Management Team - whilst simultaneously questioning other aspects of the previous Budgets I have questioned the fact that the measurement of failure is one point outside the Play Off Spot with a Third of the Season to go - which is highly unusual I have questioned the fact that an interim inexperienced Board seem in a great rush to make decisions on dismissing the Management Team whilst most Boards would exercise caution I have questioned the fact that our Plan B is a Rookie Manager and that finances are unlikely to allow anything beyond this I have questioned the fact that according to the Press the dismissal decision was already made without factoring in either the Rangers Result being a Win or Morton getting beat My sole Motivation is that Im angry that because Ian McCall is a Friend -and therefore all aforementioned Questions have no substance ( despite other posters expressing similar concerns ) Yet my Friendship with Ian McCall isnt a secret - Ive actually known him from when he played in Hong Kong when I worked there I admire your spirited defence of all of the decisions -and your faith that they are all correct without question You do like to point out inconsistencies and contradictions, so there maybe something that you have not noticed If the decision was already made before the Rangers and Morton games, then the one point outside the play off spot is totally irrelevant to the decision. I would also question how you know that the board was "in a great rush". For all we know they might have been mulling over this for several weeks. We have no evidence one way or the other on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 11 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: Only in the sense that no one here has a crystal ball about the final league standings. An educated judgment has to be taken. People simply disagree about the balance there. In the sense of individual positions in the league we absolutely do know the financial implications because the prize money distribution is public domain information. In the entire existence of a 10 team, 36 game second tier, a team has been promoted with more than 10 league defeats in a season twice. We’ve already lost 10 games and there’s 1/3 of the season to go. Defeats to teams averaging a point a game or less, at home, is not the form of a promotion-chasing team. It’s the form of a team looking over its shoulder. And that’s fine. You’re entitled to those opinions. They, the Club Board, clearly disagree with you. But their decision isn’t wild. It’s well within the range of decisions any board would have considered taking given where we are. We are obviously not going to agree. It’s a fair point regarding games lost - although I guess you are talking about winning the league ? Managers are usually changed mid season to improve their current position. What is it about Doolan that you think will bring this about ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: We are obviously not going to agree. It’s a fair point regarding games lost - although I guess you are talking about winning the league ? Managers are usually changed mid season to improve their current position. What is it about Doolan that you think will bring this about ? Can we turn it around. If the board have decided that Ian McCall needs to be relieved of 1st team duties (you may or maynot agree with that decision, but that is a separate question) who do you appoint as an interim coach ? There aren't many options. Doolan, Graham, Britton, Paul McDonald or Arthur are the only ones that come to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 8 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: I'm curious as to who you think should have been appointed as Directors in December if not people chosen by the majority shareholder? There was no functioning fan ownership model in early December 2022. There was no mechanism in place for the fans to exert democratic control over the PTFC Trust. They did not even have a contact list of their existing beneficiaries. Who were they supposed to appoint, exactly, and who were they supposed to reach out to, when 7 of the 8 board members had just stormed off in a petulant huff over a fan protest and some awkward questions about the annual accounts they'd just signed off? This interim board, as was explained at the outset, was specifically assembled to provide breathing space up to the end of the season to allow essential business decisions (footballing and financial) to continue to be taken. This was an inescapable arrangement while the ownership situation was worked on by the Trust's Short-Life Working Group. The Working Group was, let's not forget, a broad cross-section of fans which met in their spare time, between Christmas and New Year, to develop proposals. Those proposals have had to be considered and fed-back on by the Trust, and the fans were given an update to that effect less than a month ago, indicating that the next major staging post would be mid-February. TJF and the working group should be absolutely raging at how this was done, but all you have done,maybe personally, is defend their decision. As I said previously - I am mystified. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCall Out Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 9 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Ok - So I have this right I have questioned the fact that the current Board are willing to accept targets and player budgets set by the previous Board to sack the Management Team - whilst simultaneously questioning other aspects of the previous Budgets I have questioned the fact that the measurement of failure is one point outside the Play Off Spot with a Third of the Season to go - which is highly unusual I have questioned the fact that an interim inexperienced Board seem in a great rush to make decisions on dismissing the Management Team whilst most Boards would exercise caution I have questioned the fact that our Plan B is a Rookie Manager and that finances are unlikely to allow anything beyond this I have questioned the fact that according to the Press the dismissal decision was already made without factoring in either the Rangers Result being a Win or Morton getting beat My sole Motivation is that Im angry that because Ian McCall is a Friend -and therefore all aforementioned Questions have no substance ( despite other posters expressing similar concerns ) Yet my Friendship with Ian McCall isnt a secret - Ive actually known him from when he played in Hong Kong when I worked there I admire your spirited defence of all of the decisions -and your faith that they are all correct without question Maybe he can get a job out there. Should be far enough away. Shame he never played on Mars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said: You do like to point out inconsistencies and contradictions, so there maybe something that you have not noticed If the decision was already made before the Rangers and Morton games, then the one point outside the play off spot is totally irrelevant to the decision. I would also question how you know that the board was "in a great rush". For all we know they might have been mulling over this for several weeks. We have no evidence one way or the other on that. OK - I will try and explain The Management Team were sacked for not meeting the Targets set by the Previous Board as they had the Budget to do so That Target as confirmed by AR was second place ( which makes sense given QP & Dundee strengths ) - The Budget was set assuming a second place finish - Woodstock Jag has emphasised that by missing Second Place it means we are £280K down - all of this makes perfect sense However it is therefore accepted that we were not going up as Automatic First - WJ emphasizes that Dools may drag us into a second place spot - with the reward of £280K so its worth the risk of sacking the Management Team ( as there target of Second Place and associated revenue was in most likliehood being missed ) All Makes Sense However as AR pointed out - the Rangers Revenue ( which I believe is in the region of £275K ) negates not getting second place financially - so by the Cup Run -the Management Team offset the loss of Second Place Income- in there start of Season Target which there Player Budget was based on So we are then left ( as it was always targeted ) with promotion via a Play Off Spot - Now we were one point away from it - third of the Season to go - couple of wins - we are in the Mix - couple of losses you review the Management Team ( we have three crucial games coming up ) was there a chance of a Post Rangers Game Bounce - possibly So applying reasonable logic - the sacking of the Management Team is at best odd -at this Juncture But here is my Main Concern - despite the £275K income the Club still faces " significant financial challenges " so without the Rangers Game - where did that leave us - TJF have issued a statement going to great lengths regards why they wanted Due Diligence ( which seems to be sensible given the recent statement ) The Key Objective of any Board is to keep the Lights on - however the energy and emphasise on removing the Management Team- seems at odds with the "significant financial challenges " Now Due Diligence would have flagged up any issues ? But lets talk about getting Beat by Hamilton Accies & Cove because thats the key issue Oh and that Im Mates with Ian McCall 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 35 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: Can we turn it around. If the board have decided that Ian McCall needs to be relieved of 1st team duties (you may or maynot agree with that decision, but that is a separate question) who do you appoint as an interim coach ? There aren't many options. Doolan, Graham, Britton, Paul McDonald or Arthur are the only ones that come to mind Kenny Arthur is Working his Notice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 33 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: TJF and the working group should be absolutely raging at how this was done, but all you have done,maybe personally, is defend their decision. As I said previously - I am mystified. It would be beneficial to @Woodstock Jag and, indeed, all of us, if TJF had a separate members account here for their official communications. At the moment it seems as though the lines between TJF and personal comments are blurred. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Kenny Arthur is Working his Notice But probably wasn't when the need for an interim coach was known. Either way, There were not many options for an interim coach, so picking Doolan is far from illogical under the circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted February 16, 2023 Report Share Posted February 16, 2023 46 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: We are obviously not going to agree. It’s a fair point regarding games lost - although I guess you are talking about winning the league ? No I am talking about promotion by whatever means. The only teams to have gained promotion with as many or more defeats than us are Dundee and Dunfermline. Only a small handful have been in the top 4 with more than 12 defeats (I think it’s fewer than 5 times in over 20 years). 46 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: Managers are usually changed mid season to improve their current position. What is it about Doolan that you think will bring this about ? A freshened change of approach, impeccable professionalism, an experienced coach and a very intelligent guy. Zero ego. That’s a temperament that I think could succeed, and if it doesn’t, I don’t think we’ll lose out much. Because my own view is that McCall wouldn’t have got us into the playoffs, or at best would have got us in 4th and we would have lost to the team in 3rd. On that rationale Doolan loses us, probably at worst, a five figure sum if the team craters to 8th, and I reckon he’ll probably have us finishing 6th at worst. And I’m reminded that McNamara as a young manager was also given the reins part way through a season and started to build something pretty special. If Doolan does anything other than make a total hash of it this is a great opportunity for him and for us. If he does make a hash of it, then fair enough, the sceptics have called it right. These calls are what Club Boards have to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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