Ayr v Thistle Tue 27th Feb

[Third Lanark]

14 hours ago, laukat said:

Just watched the goals again (I don't know why I do it to myself)

First one Fitzpatrick gets shown up by McAllister. That is quite an achievement

Second one I don't know what Bannigan is marking he just seems to be guarding the corner of the box. McInroy doesn't follow his runner.

Third one. Muirhead just lets his man run off him and Stewart has had a flap at a ball he's never getting

Fourth one. Milne plays a fairless aimless pass infield when he could have sent it down the line and asked Ayr to defend it. McBeth stands on the ball, Neilson backs off too far and then Stewart has a wee lie down.

Apart from McBeth standing on the ball I think I've seen these all before. McBeth and perhaps Neilson have an excuse as they are relatively inexperienced but all the others making mistakes are experienced pro's

Last season Fitzpatrick looked a much better player playing in a 4-4-2 with Holt playing as an orthodox leftback. I'm not convinced the combination of Milne and Fitzpatrick works. 

Bannigan is after a wee purple patch reverting to his norm. Muirhead is really out of form. McInroy has ability but to me looks not fully committed. 

I think we really need to solidify the team so I think we should be looking at something like this for United

Mitchell

McMillan-Williams-Neilson-Milne

Lawless-McBeth-Robinson-Ngwenya

                  Graham-Fitzpatrick

When was Bannigans purple patch apart from Ross County in the cup?

[partickthedog]

27 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I’d rather win 1-0 than lose 4-3.

 I am sure that we will all agree with that!

The more interesting question is as to whether one would prefer to lose 1-0 or 4-3. It is of course a given that all of us want to win, and none of us wants to lose. However, if loss it has to be, then (as long as we have not thrown away a 3 goal lead!) I am in the camp of preferring to lose 4-3 than 1-0. I suspect many posters will take the opposite view, and that is fair enough!

[laukat]

21 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

When was Bannigans purple patch apart from Ross County in the cup?

In my opinion and I'm not his biggest fan, I thought we was pretty good from the Arbroath game to the Livi game. Since then he's went back to his norm.

Either way he should be by now someone that is no longer an automatic pick. Bad enough this season had been Bannigan plus 2 others in midfield but if this season is about transition we need to we phasing him out by this point to ensure next season he's backup

[dl1971]

As others have said our options are sadly limited in terms of making us better defensively. Maybe worth moving Milne into midfield and ngwenga to left back. I'm also thinking mcbeth ( I've read the comments ) may be worth a go at centre back. Final point....the entire team are responsible for defensive weaknesses, from front to back. Our failure is collective, not individually. To pin the blame on one player is nonsense. 

[Jaggernaut]

Just watched highlights. Although I've been critical of both central defenders of late, I can't attribute special blame for any of those for goals. The problem is unfortunately more widespread, and in need of serious attention. And as for the goalie, honestly, he's blameless for all four, and he had at least one excellent stop that he shouldn't have needed to make if the defence had worked properly. Don't moan about "commanding his box`' when all he has is a shambolic situation in front of him.

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Take your point. I'll turn it on its head if only to try to be positive. These last three games we've scored 9 goals. The expected downside when bringing in a defensive mid is that we'd drop off attack wise. I doubt many of us are anything but pleased with our scoring rate and also very few didn't recognise that we were weak defensively in midfield. Doolan conceded that much.

I wasn't at Inverness so I've only see McBeth start the last two games plus a couple of cameo appearances. I've actually thought he's been decent but that's of course ignoring the facts. I can't argue with that tho' I can point out that a weakness at losing goals from set pieces is a largely a collective failing and not any more or less the fault of a defensive midfielder. 

Just a feeling but I reckon basic teamwork is more the problem than individual failings if you exclude the goalkeeping. Gotta get that sorted before we can really judge McBeth, who I sense isn't going to be a major part of the problem.

We have been scoring all season. In the first 13 games since the league started up to the end of October, we scored 22 and conceded 25. In the next 13 up to the Airdrie game we scored 28 and conceded 16. You can see why I am struggling to see what needed fixed. He maybe thought bringing in McBeth would improve us again, but it hasn’t. So, let’s get back to what was working best and for me, unfortunately that means dropping McBeth.

 

[Dick Dastardly]

1 hour ago, Third Lanark said:

I’ve never at any point called for him to be sacked. It’s still okay to be infuriated at several of the mistakes he has made, some financially costly without calling for him to be sacked 

If you can’t be infuriated supporting the Jags then you’re supporting the wrong team.

[Third Lanark]

21 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

If you can’t be infuriated supporting the Jags then you’re supporting the wrong team.

I know mate

irs just so annoying throwing away that money and we did throw it away after being 2-0 down

While there will be a decent crowd at this Saturdays game and against raith and Morton I can’t help but think they would be absolutely bumper crowds and very useful for the income if it was not for our appalling results recently.  Again we have completely thrown away the chance of bumper crowds as opposed to them being fairly decent 

The club truly has been masters of completely throwing away the chance of a lot of additional revenue in 2024

[Jordanhill Jag]

9 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

The option is give him a bit of time, like McCall was given, even after a relegation 

Well that's not the Board Strategy 

McCall was given a target of Promotion Outright by Winning the League by the Jlo Board - few week as after replacing the Jlo Board the New Board judged this to be a written in stone target - and the Manager was fired for not being in a position to achieve the Jlo Target ( you and WJ both from TJF have argued this was the correct thing to do ) 

Dools was brought in to achieve this Target of Winning the League - he failed scraped into the Playoffs - missed promotion - now so we are clear his Target was Promotion by Winning the League - so he failed on that + failed on Promotion 

This Season his Target is finishing 3rd - he drops out of Play Off Contention then the Board have to apply there own rules - McCall was fired for not achieving a Jlo Target - Dools cannot get a third chance of achieving the Board Targets - otherwise people may conclude the sacking of McCall was not for simply Football reasons ? 

So you cant argue one decision is Right - then Argue you should change the measurement parameters set by the Board 

Now - if your saying the Parameters are wrong - they were applied unfairly - they are too draconian - that's fine - you remove those who have set unreasonable Parameters at Board Level 

Which one would you like it to be - Sack Dools - Replace Directors - you cant have it both ways   

Members of TJF Board cant argue McCalls Sacking was 100% correct-  and then argue that Dools is OK not to meet Board Targets   

 

  

[ChiThistle]

3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Members of TJF Board cant argue McCalls Sacking was 100% correct-  and then argue that Dools is OK not to meet Board Targets

Who says that target is the only parameter they have, though?  It may be the only parameter they’ve PUBLICIZED…..but they likely have others.

Every board seems to set a target, but it would be silly for it to be the only metric.  But do they have to share the other metrics with shareholders/stakeholders?  I’d argue they don’t.  That puts us back in the “fan owned vs fan run” argument.

And one difference I think we are overlooking between the McCall and Doolan situations…..wasn’t McCall given extra funds to make that promotion push that didn’t happen?  Which turned out to be funds we really couldn’t afford?  Doolan, to my knowledge, has received no such funding of any significance due to our financial situation.

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

This is increasingly coming across as a very bitter vendetta against the current board/manager and a blind defence of the previous manager. Most of your last post there is not even worth engaging with it's so baseless. You are now dragging down every thread you appear in with your incessant arguments which detract from the sensible points you do have (which are in there somewhere). 

[Norgethistle]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

 

Dools was brought in to achieve this Target of Winning the League - he failed scraped into the Playoffs - missed promotion - now so we are clear his Target was Promotion by Winning the League - so he failed on that + failed on Promotion 

 

  

Sorry you’re making this up now.

 

You have an agenda against certain board members and a big chip on your shoulder over your friend McCall getting let go last year. 
 

I’m off this thread as it’s pointless 

 

 

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

This Season his Target is finishing 3rd

What’s the source for this assertion ?

[Fawlty Towers]

19 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

For the most part, they run losses underwritten by soft loans, other forms of debt, or regular investment from benefactors.

Dundee lost over £800k in 2021-22 and posted substantial six-figure losses last season too.

Dundee United have consistently posted seven figure losses in recent seasons.

Raith Rovers saw heavy reliance on benefactors in recent seasons, and only made profits when on good cup runs. Their new investors say they have drastically improved their position. We shall have to wait and see if this is off the back of a decent league campaign or something more.

Morton lost six figure sums in both of the last two seasons despite big Old Firm Cup ties away from home.

Queen's Park are burning through the multi-million proceeds of selling the national stadium.

Ayr United have been underwritten by various benefactors in recent seasons.

Inverness lost over £800k last year and is relying on land redevelopment projects to remain viable.

Dunfermline has lost the best part of £1 million in the last two seasons.

Arbroath are a part-time football team.

Cove Rangers are a part-time team and got relegated.

Airdrieonians are half a million pounds in debt.

Hamilton had a massive cash legacy from a youth set-up and squandered it on Nigerian Princes. And got relegated.

All of these teams in the 2nd tier this year or last. Which of these teams do you suggest we emulate?

 

Managed to lose over £1M last season.

https://dafc.co.uk/club-update-annual-accounts-2022-23-season/

[Fawlty Towers]

15 minutes ago, javeajag said:

What’s the source for this assertion ?

To give Jim's fingers a well earned rest I will answer this one.

The report from the club after the AGM stated the budgeted for loss was based on finishing in the playoffs and not getting past Ross County in the cup.

[scotty]

19 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

To give Jim's fingers a well earned rest I will answer this one.

The report from the club after the AGM stated the budgeted for loss was based on finishing in the playoffs and not getting past Ross County in the cup.

Do clubs actually benefit much financially from the play-offs? I seem to recall something about the gate money being split between the clubs and the SPFL. I do realise that the prize money is greater the higher up we finish.

[Fawlty Towers]

Just now, scotty said:

Do clubs actually benefit much financially from the play-offs? I seem to recall something about the gate money being split between the clubs and the SPFL. I do realise that the prize money is greater the higher up we finish.

I believe at our level there is a large amount of the gate receipts which end up with the SPFL but when reading Dunfermline's report on their accounts they indicated they actually lost out by winning the league as they had budgeted for play off games so don't know if it is different for the bottom two leagues.

[javeajag]

28 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

To give Jim's fingers a well earned rest I will answer this one.

The report from the club after the AGM stated the budgeted for loss was based on finishing in the playoffs and not getting past Ross County in the cup.

Thanks for that ….its a financial budgeting statement which is not the same as the manager will be sacked if we don’t finish third ( which would be daft anyway ) statement.

[Woodstock Jag]

40 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Thanks for that ….its a financial budgeting statement which is not the same as the manager will be sacked if we don’t finish third ( which would be daft anyway ) statement.

Correct.

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Sorry you’re making this up now.

 

You have an agenda against certain board members and a big chip on your shoulder over your friend McCall getting let go last year. 
 

I’m off this thread as it’s pointless 

 

 

I've made absolutely zero up - that's complete and utter tripe 

Every Target stated for the Two Managers was put out by the Board from there various announcements 

There is No Agenda or "Chip on my Shoulder " Ive pointed out that the Board introduced a dismissal process based on certain Targets being missed - you & WJ argued very strongly that they were justified in doing this regards McCall ( fair enough ) 

NOW your arguing that despite missing the Boards Targets - Dools should be kept on 

So either Dools goes OR the Dismissal Strategy of Firing Managers is wrong 

Your Running away because you don't want to upset the Board Members-  after all TJF and the Board are pretty much the one thing these days & how dare anyone criticise the Board Members      

 

 

[Woodstock Jag]

3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Well that's not the Board Strategy 

McCall was given a target of Promotion Outright by Winning the League by the Jlo Board - few week as after replacing the Jlo Board the New Board judged this to be a written in stone target - and the Manager was fired for not being in a position to achieve the Jlo Target ( you and WJ both from TJF have argued this was the correct thing to do ) 

I'll stop you right there. At absolutely no point did the New Board state, or even imply that the target was "Promotion Outright by Winning the League".

They said that the target was promotion.

Not to win the league outright.

So you're just talking rubbish.

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, Fawlty Towers said:

To give Jim's fingers a well earned rest I will answer this one.

The report from the club after the AGM stated the budgeted for loss was based on finishing in the playoffs and not getting past Ross County in the cup.

Thanks FT  It was the Poster Lenzie Jag who stated that the target was third so some confusion  - so Dools has No Target - Nothing to measure him against - however if we miss the Playoffs it has a Financial Implication - just as missing promotion last Season as stated by the Board had a Financial implication 

So by Logic -you sack one Manager for not hitting Targets - You Sack the other One   

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

I'll stop you right there. At absolutely no point did the New Board state, or even imply that the target was "Promotion Outright by Winning the League".

They said that the target was promotion.

Not to win the league outright.

So you're just talking rubbish.

They Quoted the Growing Gap Between the League Leaders & where Thistle were sitting when they dismissed McCall - we were one point off the Play Off Spot Mid Feb - so still in contention 

So No - Im not talking Rubbish   

[Woodstock Jag]

4 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

I've made absolutely zero up - that's complete and utter tripe 

Every Target stated for the Two Managers was put out by the Board from there various announcements 

There is No Agenda or "Chip on my Shoulder " Ive pointed out that the Board introduced a dismissal process based on certain Targets being missed - you & WJ argued very strongly that they were justified in doing this regards McCall ( fair enough ) 

NOW your arguing that despite missing the Boards Targets - Dools should be kept on 

So either Dools goes OR the Dismissal Strategy of Firing Managers is wrong 

Your Running away because you don't want to upset the Board Members-  after all TJF and the Board are pretty much the one thing these days & how dare anyone criticise the Board Members      

Utter nonsense.

The footballing justification given for relieving McCall of his duties was that a change of manager was more likely to secure promotion. The concerns about the likelihood of having a chance to achieve this were heightened by McCall overseeing the Club fall out of the play-off places, which would leave it completely ineligible for promotion at the end of the season.

Doolan was hired to improve the league position and did so, securing a play-off spot. He failed to win promotion, but no one said that was the condition of his employment.

At the moment, Kris Doolan's side is in the play-offs, which meets the target set by the current board, and actually exceeds the position on which budgeting assumptions are now made at the Club.

So you're wrong about literally everything.

[Jordanhill Jag]

56 minutes ago, scotty said:

Do clubs actually benefit much financially from the play-offs? I seem to recall something about the gate money being split between the clubs and the SPFL. I do realise that the prize money is greater the higher up we finish.

Yes - Your correct