Third Lanark Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 There are strongly held views on the current proposals ,most of them discuss the concept of Sporting Integrity so in order to hopefully open up the debate, its maybe worth looking at what we would like to see for our Club and Scottish Football going forward. Now much has been said about the concept of "Sporting Integrity" which is all very Corinthian however I have argued long before Newco that Im uncomfortable as a Thistle Fan standing in judgement - its a simple fact that during save the Jags we had a CVA -from memory we paid our Creditors 40 p in the £ ( we had to pay our Football debts 100% thats the SFA rules). Over the next few years we ran up a bill with HMRC of circa £230K - we then hit a cashflow crisis which was only solved when the current Directors stepped in. On two occasions in our recent History we have faced the possibility of adminstration - Companies have funded the excess of PTFC decisions - not the Directors who took the decisions - external Companies - many of them small businesses . Rangers and PTFC are different for one single reason ,our Creditors agreed a CVA theirs did not- thats it ,the difference in Sporting Integrity is approx 32 p in the £ in a CVA offer. Most people think Newco should enter Div 3 ,fair enough -but reality is we are discussing what level not if they should enter - Div 3 or Div 1 it makes no difference to PTFC - they enter Div 3 they walk the leagues back in SPL in three Seasons - being honest who cares. I have in various guises been responsible for putting bums on seats ,it gets harder by the year - simple reason ,nothing to play for - last Season four Clubs chasing second spot - no one cared ,flip that to a play off it becomes a completley different Season. So in short I dont accept that we have the moral upper ground ,I dont care one single jot where SEVCO play - I have not spoken to one single Rangers Fan who thinks they should play in Div 1 -nor do I care about increasing "Jackies Budget" I do however care about the long term future of PTFC - currently 50% of our Season Ticket holders are over 50 ( 25% over 65) Kids go Free has failed ,we are not a Family Club ,nor are we a Community Club - we are a Club slowly dying. If we want a Club we can be proud of not the irrelevance we have become we need to look at our future ,we cannot survive in the long term ,sure there will be a team called PTFC but a part time group of boys - not a viable Club with ambition. So if Fans demand we vote no due to "Sporting Integrity" then please remember we have 32 p in the £ greater integrity than Rangers - we dont get play offs we will be irrelevant in five years anyway. For the record these are not the views of onethistle nor the Club ,I currently do not know the Club views on Newco - they are the views of someone who is tired of our Club tearing itself apart ,first we had the Old Gaurd we get our finances under control - now we have Newco - big Newsflash I have three kids - none of them go to see PTFC ,in five years time 25% of our support will struggle to walk up South Drive as they will be over 70 and no one is replacing them.We couldnt get 2000 Jags Fans in the JHS for the whole of last Season. So lets have your views ,what would be the minimium you would expect to let Newco into Div 1 - if its no chance fair enough. Jim Alexander Jim, Most of your other points have been answered by fans who have given far more reasoned explanations than I could. What I will say is there has never been a better opportunity to increase our attendance by becoming the second biggest team in Scotland's largest city. Rangers are dead, newco is imploding they will have a considerably weakened support if they even manage to get into divison 3. Partick Thistle, Queens Park and other teams in the Greater Glasgow area can only increase their fanbase by gaining from a weakened or non existent newco. Plenty of kids everywhere in Glasgow are brought up to support Celtic or Rangers a severley weakened Newco or non existant newco are likely to push a number into supporting Glasgow's second biggest team which has the very potential to be Partick Thistle particularaly when they there is no Rangers/Newco or a weakened newco in divison 3. We are also the option of kids going for free. By helping Newco into divison 1 we are effectively giving them a helping hand to progress quickly to the SPL again and become Glasgow's biggest club and basically ensuring our younger fanbase will always be in a minority compared to a Rangers type/Newco fanbase. All for what to make a bit of money over the next season or two. The only team a strong newco helps is newco or Celtic it does Partick Thistle no favours. A weakened newco in divison 3 or no newco at all means we are the second biggest team in Scotlands largest city Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 A one time post, for old times sakes. I was up for this season. A few of us were buying season tickets, then Mr Beattie opened his mouth just to prove again that the people involved running this football club are clueless and out of touch. I have to say i am very disappointed with JJ. I've known him a long time and i think he's just plain wrong. His argument is a Thistle version of the Neil Doncaster one : do this or else it ends in oblivion. It's exactly the same as the Rangers argument: Partick Thistle before Scottish football. In short it's bullshit. It might also be useful to remind ourselves that in the last 40 years, we have only played around 6 seasons in the top league. Not because we've been cheated out of a second promotion place, but because we have been rotten. Despite being rotten, we still turn up. Being a Partick Thistle fan has never been and never will be about winning things.It's not about play off places. It's not about the SPL. It's certainly not about the lure of a top six finish. It's about going along to support your team with your friends and family and passing the torch It's about experiencing the lows and savouring the limited highs. You know when things started to go wrong? When we started talking about business plans. And marketing plans. And strategy documents. When we started listening to ars*holes like Souness and Murray. Clowns like Doncaster and Lex Gold. This is about doing the right thing. For Scottish football. In these types of situations, i think it makes sense to imagine 5 or 10 years ahead. Then look back to now. How do Partick Thistle fans want to be thought of? Which side are we on? I'd rather Partick Thistle played in the juniors than signed up to Newco in SFL1. Furthermore, anyone in an official/unofficial capacity at Firhill who is pushing the newco thing should resign immediately. They aren't fit to hold the position. One Thistle? I would say this thread proves we are at one. I think Football has no integrity whatsoever , voting No gets a warm feeling for all of 5 minutes and we return to the same mundane first Division of meaningless games - so Im accepting the reality - Im not pretending on any level that the people running Football or are involved in it give a toss about it,Rangers are the worst example but Im pretty sure Clubs up and down the Country will not stand up to close scrutiny. I have pointed out our own misdeameanours in the recent past ,sure its not to the scale of Rangers but it in my opinion certianly doesnt give us the moral higher ground. Figures of 100% are against it are dangerous - we dont know that ,statements like the majority will walk away - we dont know that - what we do no is that reasoned debate isnt going to happen ,looking at pros and cons of whats on offer isnt going to happen ,balancing up the potential benefits isnt going to happen,looking at the downside of a no vote ,what we do know is that anyone pointing out that there may be potential for change will be shouted down I have long argued for fans running there Club ,I have been polite and put forward a reasoned arguement in response I have recieved not one solid proposal as to how to increase our fan base , you have asked for resignations ,onethistle was an idea - it has met stiff resistance and is has struggled to establish itself, so there is nothing to resign from. It is a real struggle to get people to do work for the Club ,but as soon as we have something to protest about and stand on our moral high horse we have lots of time and energy. Our Club has been run into the ground - a small group included yourself have fought this so I accept you have the right to challenge my stance , but where was everyone else when we emptied the stands ,where was everyone else when we ran up massive debts ,where was everyone else as the lifeblood was squeezed from us.But Newco appear and we all suddenly get some moral fibre I have fought this on every level ,I have put far too much time ,money and effort in over the years - to this day I put more money into PTFC than any sitting Director - onethistle is going no where simple fact ,neither is the Club so we can have our protests ,our no vote ,people can even have a pop at me and demand I "resign" fine ,then what ,please tell me there is a plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One t in Scotland Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) Rangers and PTFC are different for one single reason ,our Creditors agreed a CVA theirs did not- thats it ,the difference in Sporting Integrity is approx 32 p in the £ in a CVA offer. HMRC killed off the CVA as a result of systematic tax evasion. Plus I don't recall PTFC entering a formal CVA process. Edited June 30, 2012 by One t in Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 What is Onethistle? One minute you're making it a more enjoyable match day experience for fans, the next canvassing views for BOD re newco then you're back to the match day experience shout! Why did the group get mentioned in club statement last week? How will the group go ahead canvassing opinions of the 2000 (your number) fans? Surely this isn't it? It's not 100% but well over 90% wouldn't you say? Do you still genuinely believe that majority of fans are bluffing re season ticket money/pay at gate money? You obviously have some contact with the board so I'd abhor you to tell Mr Beattie that other fans groups are talking about boycotting PTFC over this stance as well as his own fans turning their back on the club. Maybe it's the master plan re Propco, I don't know. Whaf I do know is that I've had enough of being fobbed off with nonsensical statements saying nothing to discuss. 7 other SFL1 clubs don't feel that way so why do PTFC custodians feel thaf is thd case. Fans want answers & they're getting drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I think Football has no integrity whatsoever , voting No gets a warm feeling for all of 5 minutes and we return to the same mundane first Division of meaningless games - so Im accepting the reality - Im not pretending on any level that the people running Football or are involved in it give a toss about it,Rangers are the worst example but Im pretty sure Clubs up and down the Country will not stand up to close scrutiny. I have pointed out our own misdeameanours in the recent past ,sure its not to the scale of Rangers but it in my opinion certianly doesnt give us the moral higher ground. Figures of 100% are against it are dangerous - we dont know that ,statements like the majority will walk away - we dont know that - what we do no is that reasoned debate isnt going to happen ,looking at pros and cons of whats on offer isnt going to happen ,balancing up the potential benefits isnt going to happen,looking at the downside of a no vote ,what we do know is that anyone pointing out that there may be potential for change will be shouted down I have long argued for fans running there Club ,I have been polite and put forward a reasoned arguement in response I have recieved not one solid proposal as to how to increase our fan base , you have asked for resignations ,onethistle was an idea - it has met stiff resistance and is has struggled to establish itself, so there is nothing to resign from. It is a real struggle to get people to do work for the Club ,but as soon as we have something to protest about and stand on our moral high horse we have lots of time and energy. Our Club has been run into the ground - a small group included yourself have fought this so I accept you have the right to challenge my stance , but where was everyone else when we emptied the stands ,where was everyone else when we ran up massive debts ,where was everyone else as the lifeblood was squeezed from us.But Newco appear and we all suddenly get some moral fibre I have fought this on every level ,I have put far too much time ,money and effort in over the years - to this day I put more money into PTFC than any sitting Director - onethistle is going no where simple fact ,neither is the Club so we can have our protests ,our no vote ,people can even have a pop at me and demand I "resign" fine ,then what ,please tell me there is a plan. Its not a proposal Jim but I would say theres a pretty solid chance that a disappeared or severley weakened Rangers/Newco will lead to an increase in our attendance. A helping lift to Newco to the first and possibly SPL will definetly not. Basically a non existant Rangers or as near to it as we can get only strengthens Partick Thistle's pulling power at the risk of continuall repeating myself (which I have a habit of doing) a Rangers/Newco on their way back up to the top can only lead to Thistle being the at most Glasgow's third team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cup Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Hamilton have joined forces with the other SFL clubs to say NO to NEWCO entering Div 1 Frankly our club is becoming an embarrassment It became and embarrassment when Beattie open his gob to say that Thistle wanted Rangers in the 1st division. So far the only clubs that have come out for Newco Rangers are Thistle and Cowdenbeath, who's director is Donald Findlay. We keep good company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) What is Onethistle? One minute you're making it a more enjoyable match day experience for fans, the next canvassing views for BOD re newco then you're back to the match day experience shout! Why did the group get mentioned in club statement last week? How will the group go ahead canvassing opinions of the 2000 (your number) fans? Surely this isn't it? It's not 100% but well over 90% wouldn't you say? Do you still genuinely believe that majority of fans are bluffing re season ticket money/pay at gate money? You obviously have some contact with the board so I'd abhor you to tell Mr Beattie that other fans groups are talking about boycotting PTFC over this stance as well as his own fans turning their back on the club. Maybe it's the master plan re Propco, I don't know. Whaf I do know is that I've had enough of being fobbed off with nonsensical statements saying nothing to discuss. 7 other SFL1 clubs don't feel that way so why do PTFC custodians feel thaf is thd case. Fans want answers & they're getting drivel. Since members of onethistle had a wider basis of contact than the official Club Communications system then using them to assist canvassing opinion made sense - nothing more nothing less. Im stating my own opinion on this thread ,Im allowed that just like every Thistle fan. The Board are well aware of threatened boycotts ,the figure of 300 e mails has been mentioned .Many fans will be unhappy if we vote yes but that shouldnt be taken that they will all walk away - people support Clubs for varying reasons - Rangers Newco is not the core issue for all fans including myself. From the statement PTFC like the vast majority of other SFL Clubs will attend the meeting on Tuesday then see whats being discussed ,on this the Club are in line with most Clubs in the SFL - only five have said they will vote no if it gets to a vote - I have argued we consider the proposals on there merits - posters are 100% against this ,fine campiagn for a no vote that is your right. Its also my right to argue to look a bit further than the simplistic arguement. Edited June 30, 2012 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMCF Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Firstly we should all take a moment here to recall our common purpose. We all support Partick Thistle and dare anyone to come between us as a family. Secondly a word of appreciation for JJ in that he has stimulated great debate about out future and stated his case, as always, fearlessly. Jim you will always be entitled to your opinion and I would fight people with a blunt butter knife to ensure that continues. It's encouraging that old friends appear albeit in an alien disguise, you sly Monkey. Aye, but here's the thing. For all our blustering debate I still fear that the ba' will be taken away from us all, those who have spoken out and those keeping their council quiet. Beware of the SPL 2 Party. By invitation only. And top of their guest list will be The Team Formerly Known As Rangers. Other potential "guests" will be told, accept the invite or you will find that it is YOUR club (and in this I include not just Thistle but Morton, Raith, Falkirk etc. ) who are the ones being effectively relegated to the lower levels. Someone stated earlier that there is no morality in football. If SPL2 comes to pass, as a re-entry vehicle for TTFKAR, this will for me be a prime example of it. Will it force me to walk away, the thought of having to play with the unacceptable face of Scottish Football or alternatively participating In the Scottish Football Regional Super League (West) along with Albion Rovers and Annan? Wherever they are playing in Red and Yellow, I will follow Thistle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Jings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 But to boil this down in the end to mob rule is insulting and misguided. I agree. Is it reasoned debate to dismiss those who disagree with you as a "mob"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Since members of onethistle had a wider basis of contact than the official Club Communications system then using them to assist canvassing opinion made sense - nothing more nothing less. Im stating my own opinion on this thread ,Im allowed that just like every Thistle fan. The Board are well aware of threatened boycotts ,the figure of 300 e mails has been mentioned .Many fans will be unhappy if we vote yes but that shouldnt be taken that they will all walk away - people support Clubs for varying reasons - Rangers Newco is not the core issue for all fans including myself. From the statement PTFC like the vast majority of other SFL Clubs will attend the meeting on Tuesday then see whats being discussed ,on this the Club are in line with most Clubs in the SFL - only five have said they will vote no if it gets to a vote - I have argued we consider the proposals on there merits - posters are 100% against this ,fine campiagn for a no vote that is your right. Its also my right to argue to look a bit further than mob rule. No, but how we vote when it comes to how we deal with the 'Newco situation' is vitally important...as far as I can see EVERYTHING hinges on that. In the face of everything else, why vote YES? It's not gona get passed anyway, too many clubs will oppose it, so why are we even considering voting YES when all it will achieve is the alienation of our own fans, and of the club in the eyes of fans of other SFL clubs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 You are right corrected and my apologies - difficult being in a bar brawl when the opposition is team handed Or maybe it's just that you are wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I agree. Is it reasoned debate to dismiss those who disagree with you as a "mob"? I have corrected this and apologise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 John Lambie Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I take it there is no vote at the next meeting? If that is the case, will the club officially announce its stance before the vote (whenever it is, it can't be that far away). If there turns out to be a vote at the next meeting, a 'we were caught on the hop & had to make a quick dcision' response will not sit well with the majority of supporters. In relation to gauging the opinion of the supporters, it's impossible to get the views of 2,000 but possible to get the views of most of our current season ticket holders, something I am willing to do should it be requested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Or maybe it's just that you are wrong! I dont think there is a "right or wrong" I dont think there is such a thing as integrity in our game therefore Im not bothered about Newco ,so you see whats on offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellow Traveller Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 You are right corrected and my apologies - difficult being in a bar brawl when the opposition is team handed Cheers. Removed my response. Fighting amongst ourselves is not going to help anything. Been down that road way too many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 No, but how we vote when it comes to how we deal with the 'Newco situation' is vitally important...as far as I can see EVERYTHING hinges on that. In the face of everything else, why vote YES? It's not gona get passed anyway, too many clubs will oppose it, so why are we even considering voting YES when all it will achieve is the alienation of our own fans, and of the club in the eyes of fans of other SFL clubs? But no one has said we are considering voting yes - we have not indicated this ,I have started a debate to ensure all arguements are on the table ,in a healthy democracy thats important - Scottish Football was a busted flush long before Newco lets stop pretending ,voting no will not change this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Mob rule.....dear God that is an insult!!!! Mob rule...thats the SPL/SFA for you. Thats NEWCO for you. Please dont insult hard working, lifetime jags followers that have pumped their hard earned money into the club with that crap. You have went down in my estimation with that comment. What you are seeing here is true jags fans standing up for what is right. If you want to see mob rules check into You Tube and listen to Bomber Browns rally outside Ibrox a few days ago. Unbelievable!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) Since members of onethistle had a wider basis of contact than the official Club Communications system then using them to assist canvassing opinion made sense - nothing more nothing less. Im stating my own opinion on this thread ,Im allowed that just like every Thistle fan. The Board are well aware of threatened boycotts ,the figure of 300 e mails has been mentioned .Many fans will be unhappy if we vote yes but that shouldnt be taken that they will all walk away - people support Clubs for varying reasons - Rangers Newco is not the core issue for all fans including myself. From the statement PTFC like the vast majority of other SFL Clubs will attend the meeting on Tuesday then see whats being discussed ,on this the Club are in line with most Clubs in the SFL - only five have said they will vote no if it gets to a vote - I have argued we consider the proposals on there merits - posters are 100% against this ,fine campiagn for a no vote that is your right. Its also my right to argue to look a bit further than mob rule. So, if we go back to the wait & see what happens on Tuesday route, do you know if after that the BOD will canvass the support for their opinions as was suggested in last Saturday's statement or was that just a sound byte to silence the masses at that point? I don't know you personally but I do know through talking with others and reading the forum in its previous guises over the years you are a dyed in the wool PTFC fan. Your opinion differs from mine over this, fine. Healthy, reasoned debate is what makes the democracy we all live in. However, I'm genuinely concerned that the majority will not be listened to over this issue & despite what has been said in the last few club statements, the decision has been made. See Michelle Evans thread & Chris Jack's quotes attributed to David Beattie (which Chris Jack stands by as not being misquoted). Edited to add: I see the poster I quoted has removed his mob rule comment so I've done same in my response. Edited June 30, 2012 by Trotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Mob rule.....dear God that is an insult!!!! Mob rule...thats the SPL/SFA for you. Thats NEWCO for you. Please dont insult hard working, lifetime jags followers that have pumped their hard earned money into the club with that crap. You have went down in my estimation with that comment. What you are seeing here is true jags fans standing up for what is right. If you want to see mob rules check into You Tube and listen to Bomber Browns rally outside Ibrox a few days ago. Unbelievable!! Look I corrected it and apologised within 2 mins - what else do you want me to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Mob rule? Like the present SPL set up who have set this up? Shafted PTFC as you will know more about than i do do with being privy to being in the inner sanctum of the boardroom at one point. Or mob rule as in custodians of the club who, it seems with their statements, are not in touch with their core support? So, if we go back to the wait & see what happens on Tuesday route, do you know if after that the BOD will canvass the support for their opinions as was suggested in last Saturday's statement or was that just a sound byte to silence the masses at that point? I don't know you personally but I do know through talking with others and reading the forum in its previous guises over the years you are a dyed in the wool PTFC fan. Your opinion differs from mine over this, fine. Healthy, reasoned debate is what makes the democracy we all live in. However, I'm genuinely concerned that the majority will not be listened to over this issue & despite what has been said in the last few club statements, the decision has been made. See Michelle Evans thread & Chris Jack's quotes attributed to David Beattie (which Chris Jack stands by as not being misquoted). I corrected and apologised ref mob rule in 60 secs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 But no one has said we are considering voting yes - we have not indicated this ,I have started a debate to ensure all arguements are on the table ,in a healthy democracy thats important - Scottish Football was a busted flush long before Newco lets stop pretending ,voting no will not change this No, but you're OP asked the question. Voting no will not change Scottish football from being a busted flush, you're bang on, but it will stop PTFC becoming one. I think the fans have spoken loudly, clearly and unanimously...if 90% on here think SFL3 it must be (at best) then Im pretty sure that figure aint gona change too dramatically when spread acroos the 2,500 regular attenders at Firhill. How many regular fans can we afford to sacrifice on the off chance that we might attract younger fans because we might have a chance of getting to a play-off that might get us promoted into a corupt SPL? 300? 400? More? I'd say 0, we cant afford to lose a single fan (or the following generations of that fan) never mind potentially 20% of the regulars. Voting no will ensure that doesn't happen. Simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 To be fair to JJ, I think he's making us aware of all sides of the argument by asking what if... There are few people that are more Thistle-minded than Jim and he has put a huge amount of energy, time and money into the Club over the years. That said, it's still a no from me to the idea of newco anywhere near SFL1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) Look I corrected it and apologised within 2 mins - what else do you want me to do I responded the minute I saw it, so what do you want me to do about it? Feelings are running high and I better take a time out before I get barred from the site!! The more I read your comments the more I feel that this is board driven....only my opinion! Edited June 30, 2012 by Lindau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I corrected and apologised ref mob rule in 60 secs I know. Was too slow typing my response Removed comments from mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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