lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Third Lanark said: Players have looked short of fitness even when we were a form team in October so there may have been merit in what Graham said about lack of fitness sessions etc during training One of our constant failings has been our inability to see a game out comfortably. Back then fortunately our ceding of possession and deep defending was often compensated by excellent back line defending from Ashcroft & O'Reilly. It's commonly accepted that the team constantly chasing the ball will tire ahead of team that has the lion's share of possession. Not arguing that we were equally as fit as our opponents, just pointing out a contributing factor. Turn that on its head. If you've a team that's forever giving away possession whether thru long punts out of defence, poor joiny up stuff from its midfield or a tendency to defend too deep, then that team really needs to be fitter than its opponents. Edited February 24 by lady-isobel-barnett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 Why has the team's lack of fitness suddenly become apparent to so many punters here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy McD Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 20 minutes ago, eljaggo said: Why has the team's lack of fitness suddenly become apparent to so many punters here? It's not been a sudden reaction, it's been apparent for a few months, every team in the league that we play all seam to be much faster , quicker, than us...all the guys that sit around me are of the same option... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 Why then, was it rarely mentioned on here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 3 minutes ago, eljaggo said: Why then, was it rarely mentioned on here? It has been, often in reference to Fitzy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 4 minutes ago, eljaggo said: Why then, was it rarely mentioned on here? Mentioned several times along with players looking disinterested. The captain also raised it in an interview after the game on saturday too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 6 minutes ago, eljaggo said: Why then, was it rarely mentioned on here? It has been mentioned regularly since the start of the season 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 2 hours ago, Duke Gekantawa said: Hindsight of course informs us that would have been the correct decision. However, it would have been harsh based on our overall form and position at that stage (those two consecutive losses followed on from two consecutive wins)- it still could have been turned around at that stage (we even won the next game). The run where his position became untenable to most began 5 games ago really. And even then, there were perfectly valid arguments for sticking by him (we were/are still 4th and in the promotion hunt). It's not exactly Peter Grant at the Pars (or even Caldwell). I really don't think his status as legend gave him any leaway in the end. I think that there is a quite reasonable argument to the effect that Kris Doolan's legendary status led to him being removed somewhat earlier than might otherwise have been the case. I think that I commented last week (and the same theme was echoed on the Draw Lose or Draw podcast) that I was relieved that the decision was taken when it was, before matters perhaps took a more ugly turn. I do not think that many people whether board members and/or fans would have wanted a scenario to transpire especially at Firhill where fans were shouting in forceful terms for Doolan's departure. With another manager (take for example Gary Caldwell) there would perhaps be less worry about a nasty shout fest developing, and the board might be willing to dig in and batten down the hatches for a while longer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Gekantawa Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 30 minutes ago, partickthedog said: I think that there is a quite reasonable argument to the effect that Kris Doolan's legendary status led to him being removed somewhat earlier than might otherwise have been the case. I think that I commented last week (and the same theme was echoed on the Draw Lose or Draw podcast) that I was relieved that the decision was taken when it was, before matters perhaps took a more ugly turn. I do not think that many people whether board members and/or fans would have wanted a scenario to transpire especially at Firhill where fans were shouting in forceful terms for Doolan's departure. With another manager (take for example Gary Caldwell) there would perhaps be less worry about a nasty shout fest developing, and the board might be willing to dig in and batten down the hatches for a while longer. That did indeed happen at the end of Archie’s tenure, sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, Jimmy McD said: It's not been a sudden reaction, it's been apparent for a few months, every team in the league that we play all seam to be much faster , quicker, than us...all the guys that sit around me are of the same option... I'm not sure it's a fitness issue. Teams are indeed faster and quicker, because we have been playing painfully slowly with all the passing from side to side and backwards without getting forward by even an inch at times, and too often even going back. This means that the forwards have nothing to run around for, because the ball isn't coming in their direction. No movement up front, so the midfielders hold onto the ball, and as they're getting no service (until the inevitable worthless punt), the forwards simply wait or walk around, and so the vicious circle goes. And then when opponents rob us of the ball and make a beeline for our goal, our midfielders are slow as hell to turn and to even try to chase them because they've been at walking pace and need to start from being immobile. The opponents have too often built up enough speed to slice through our final defensive line, who've been left exposed by the midfielders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 55 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said: I'm not sure it's a fitness issue. Teams are indeed faster and quicker, because we have been playing painfully slowly with all the passing from side to side and backwards without getting forward by even an inch at times, and too often even going back. This means that the forwards have nothing to run around for, because the ball isn't coming in their direction. No movement up front, so the midfielders hold onto the ball, and as they're getting no service (until the inevitable worthless punt), the forwards simply wait or walk around, and so the vicious circle goes. And then when opponents rob us of the ball and make a beeline for our goal, our midfielders are slow as hell to turn and to even try to chase them because they've been at walking pace and need to start from being immobile. The opponents have too often built up enough speed to slice through our final defensive line, who've been left exposed by the midfielders. I think that there is something in that. I suspect that fitness can be measured in many different ways, all of which are equally valid, but for different purposes. I find it hard to believe that professional footballers coached full-time by professional coaches will not be fit by some metrics, but maybe these are not the metrics really needed. For example you could measure fitness by how many times in a row you can run up Cleveden Hill dragging a tractor tyre behind you. Or it may be something to do with these devices players wear which churn out numerous statistics about ground covered, number of sprints etc. I think what Jaggernaut and I are looking for is that mental freshness which means that you are sharp and on your toes, ready to move and react quickly and effectively to whatever the opposition throw at you and/or the opportunities that suddenly present themselves. It is not that the players noticeably tire so that they perform worse towards the end of the game than they do at the beginning. It is more that they are equally poor, stodgy, and slow of thought and action throughout the game. Let us hope that whatever "fitness" Brian Graham and Mark Wilson want to improve produces a more dynamic and initiative taking performance from first to final whistle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watties wallies Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 Just a thought but is part of the fitness issue maybe that the players have been overcoached listened to a couple of Everton players at the weekend being asked what is the difference Moyes has brought to the team. Response was that there was less on tactics and more on the players playing to their strengths watching thistle this year, as others have commented we are too slow moving the ball forward giving opposing teams plenty of time to organise there is no goal threat coming from our midfield in open play passing the ball about midfield then on to wingers then cross into Bg or usually knock it about in midfield then the big hoof up the park Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 4 hours ago, eljaggo said: Why has the team's lack of fitness suddenly become apparent to so many punters here? It's not sudden at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 4 minutes ago, watties wallies said: Just a thought but is part of the fitness issue maybe that the players have been overcoached listened to a couple of Everton players at the weekend being asked what is the difference Moyes has brought to the team. Response was that there was less on tactics and more on the players playing to their strengths watching thistle this year, as others have commented we are too slow moving the ball forward giving opposing teams plenty of time to organise there is no goal threat coming from our midfield in open play passing the ball about midfield then on to wingers then cross into Bg or usually knock it about in midfield then the big hoof up the park I think there's a lot of truth in that. Caldwell was a wonderfully enthusiastic manager but he seemed to have a million and one ideas which various tactics that maybe works at Man City but won't work with a Scottish Championship team. Its not always ability that limits how far players will go sometimes its their ability to absorb and translate the managers tactics onto the field. When Doolan came in he had initial success by making a small formation change and moving McCalls team from a 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1 and then we really took off when injury forced him to play 4-4-2. However since that point he seemed to have over coached. This season he started to mess about with having wingers drop deep and fullbacks go high without any real reason, our defending from corner kicks seemed to be part zonal and part man to man. Our set pieces appeared to be mainly floaty balls in for big men to attack but no real movement from anyone to try and move the opposition defence about. On Saturday I thought the first half was a more back to basics approach any ball lose balls in midfield put it in behind the fullbacks and turn the Airdrie defence matched with a high press to hem Airdrie in and it was working up until we ran out of gas in midfield to get up and press their back 4. Key part is I think Graham and Wilson got that basic instructions and the fitness to run and press the opposition are at this level the key components of how to win games. Anything more complicated just confuses more basic players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 13 minutes ago, watties wallies said: Just a thought but is part of the fitness issue maybe that the players have been overcoached listened to a couple of Everton players at the weekend being asked what is the difference Moyes has brought to the team. Response was that there was less on tactics and more on the players playing to their strengths watching thistle this year, as others have commented we are too slow moving the ball forward giving opposing teams plenty of time to organise there is no goal threat coming from our midfield in open play passing the ball about midfield then on to wingers then cross into Bg or usually knock it about in midfield then the big hoof up the park Also reading an interview with Pep and one of the issues he faces is that his style, since Barcelona days, is to keep possession and move opponents out of position while maintaining your own. Basically his teams were better at that than anyone else. He now faces teams like Brighton and Bournemouth who attack with chaos. Quick turnovers and break with pace and in numbers before his defence can recover their positions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarciaBlaine Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, partickthedog said: I think that there is something in that. I suspect that fitness can be measured in many different ways, all of which are equally valid, but for different purposes. I find it hard to believe that professional footballers coached full-time by professional coaches will not be fit by some metrics, but maybe these are not the metrics really needed. For example you could measure fitness by how many times in a row you can run up Cleveden Hill dragging a tractor tyre behind you. Or it may be something to do with these devices players wear which churn out numerous statistics about ground covered, number of sprints etc. I think what Jaggernaut and I are looking for is that mental freshness which means that you are sharp and on your toes, ready to move and react quickly and effectively to whatever the opposition throw at you and/or the opportunities that suddenly present themselves. It is not that the players noticeably tire so that they perform worse towards the end of the game than they do at the beginning. It is more that they are equally poor, stodgy, and slow of thought and action throughout the game. Let us hope that whatever "fitness" Brian Graham and Mark Wilson want to improve produces a more dynamic and initiative taking performance from first to final whistle. Yep, it's the oldest saw (and cheapest shot) for a new manager to say the team isn't fit. What he invariably means is that they have the wrong type or model of fitness for what he now wants the team to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 7 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said: .... teams like Brighton and Bournemouth who attack with chaos. Quick turnovers and break with pace and in numbers before his defence can recover their positions That's the kind of football I enjoy watching. McParland's young team in a nutshell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 10 hours ago, Jaggernaut said: That's the kind of football I enjoy watching. McParland's young team in a nutshell! Likewise, but you don't need to go back so far. The team of 12/13 does it for me. In fact a game against Airdrie epitomises that kind of football. 7-0 with I think 6 different scorers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: Likewise, but you don't need to go back so far. The team of 12/13 does it for me. In fact a game against Airdrie epitomises that kind of football. 7-0 with I think 6 different scorers. Yes, that team also came into my mind. Yon match against Dunfermline when we scored 5 being another example of the brilliant attacking moves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 (edited) 21 hours ago, partickthedog said: I think that there is something in that. I suspect that fitness can be measured in many different ways, all of which are equally valid, but for different purposes. I find it hard to believe that professional footballers coached full-time by professional coaches will not be fit by some metrics, but maybe these are not the metrics really needed. For example you could measure fitness by how many times in a row you can run up Cleveden Hill dragging a tractor tyre behind you. Or it may be something to do with these devices players wear which churn out numerous statistics about ground covered, number of sprints etc. I think what Jaggernaut and I are looking for is that mental freshness which means that you are sharp and on your toes, ready to move and react quickly and effectively to whatever the opposition throw at you and/or the opportunities that suddenly present themselves. It is not that the players noticeably tire so that they perform worse towards the end of the game than they do at the beginning. It is more that they are equally poor, stodgy, and slow of thought and action throughout the game. Let us hope that whatever "fitness" Brian Graham and Mark Wilson want to improve produces a more dynamic and initiative taking performance from first to final whistle. Well Cleveden Hill & Tyres create Olympic Medalists & European Champions - so maybe a bit less " devices" a bit more actual hard work on fitness If your not fit your Mental & Physical reaction time will be slower ( as there is less oxygen getting pumped to the Brain & Legs ) & get worse as the game progresses simply due to Oxygen depletion As for blaming Doolan on fitness - the Players have a responsibility to work on there own fitness - its the one thing that is easily fixable - the fact that they are not - speaks volumes as to the Squad we have signed & the culture that exists on multiple levels Edited February 25 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 19 hours ago, MarciaBlaine said: Yep, it's the oldest saw (and cheapest shot) for a new manager to say the team isn't fit. What he invariably means is that they have the wrong type or model of fitness for what he now wants the team to do. Or that they just aren't fit ? I'm not really understanding why what he said was a surprise to anyone ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 Didn’t mccall invest in the technology that measured players distances etc during games? there is not much new these days in football but some clubs actually weight players weekly , give them diet guidelines and monitor them etc wonder what our sports scientists are actually doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Or that they just aren't fit ? I'm not really understanding why what he said was a surprise to anyone ? Possibly because his team mates maybe think that he has thrown them under a bridge, could have been done privately in my opinion. It also provides conjecture about his relationship with Kris Doolan and his “ influence “ in the dressing room Putting himself on a pedestal, disregarding his own sending offs , missed penalties which didn’t help Kris Doolan in the slightest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 17 minutes ago, javeajag said: Didn’t mccall invest in the technology that measured players distances etc during games? there is not much new these days in football but some clubs actually weight players weekly , give them diet guidelines and monitor them etc wonder what our sports scientists are actually doing I thought that was Archibald, though i have to say towards the end of his reign in the championship i was thinking at the time the players then looked unfit and uninterested. Also same with McCall, where again Brian Graham was one of the players too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 15 minutes ago, jlsarmy said: Possibly because his team mates maybe think that he has thrown them under a bridge, could have been done privately in my opinion. It also provides conjecture about his relationship with Kris Doolan and his “ influence “ in the dressing room Putting himself on a pedestal, disregarding his own sending offs , missed penalties which didn’t help Kris Doolan in the slightest. Fully agree it should have been done privately - and it wont help his cause trying to get the best out of them - but every manager makes out Players are not fit when they take over - its an easy out And Yes - it says a lot about his own actions - a Captain is supposed to lead - not act like a petulant child 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.