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3 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

Thankfully I have never had to be in a courtroom in any capacity but if I had been accused of a crime and was found not guilty I would hope people accepted that and no stigma was attached to me. I am sure you would hope for the same.

Indeed, but these kind of things tend to longer with you.

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1 hour ago, Fawlty Towers said:

I am not in the legal profession so just go by what these days seem old fashioned ideas. A person is innocent until proven guilty and an accusation is not the same as being guilty. In my opinion the guy should just be allowed to get on with playing football without comments about shadows hanging over him being made and people making hint hint comments.

Someone is, for the purposes of criminal law, presumed innocent until proven guilty.

They don’t “become guilty” at the point of conviction. They either are or aren’t guilty from the moment they did or did not do the crime.

The presumption of innocence is also only about how the criminal justice system should treat an individual. It is not about how wider society should treat someone.

The David Goodwillie case is a very good example of this: the absence of a criminal conviction does not mean someone is innocent, or should face no social sanction.

I hope for everyone concerned’s sake that McKenna was subject to a false allegation.

But saying that he is presumed to be innocent until proven otherwise does not and should not, mean that we therefore assert or assume that the woman involved in the incident made a false allegation.

Women should not be disbelieved by default in these situations, and that, I’m afraid, is what equating an acquittal or absence of conviction with a false allegation would involve.

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52 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

Thankfully I have never had to be in a courtroom in any capacity but if I had been accused of a crime and was found not guilty I would hope people accepted that and no stigma was attached to me. I am sure you would hope for the same.

Obviously every accused person doesn’t want to be stigmatised for allegations of a crime on their part.

But that’s true regardless of whether they are guilty or not guilty or found guilty or found not guilty. No one likes being stigmatised for being associated with crimes, full stop.

Acquittal or non-conviction is not and never should be conflated with innocence, even though some acquitted people are innocent.

In the context of sexual offences this is especially true. They are a class of crime where the rate at which charges are brought relative to incidents perpetrated, and the conviction rates on going to trial, are far lower than most other crimes. This is because the standard of proof is more difficult to meet than for other crimes because of how the crime itself is defined and the difficulty proving the absence of consent without third party witnesses.

It is enough to say that McKenna has not been the subject of a criminal conviction, and that the allegations against him were not substantiated for the purposes of the University’s disciplinary proceedings.

This does not mean “he is innocent” (though he might be) and it does not mean “she made a false allegation” (though she might have).

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McCall quoted as saying ‘ McKenna is a great player plus he has a degree in political science which should serve him well. Hopefully the new Graham Gibson!

Edited by jags on tour

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8 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

That’s a good signing. We tried to sign him a couple of years ago. Young and highly rated, also relatively experienced for his age.

Maybe I'm missing something here. The lad's 22 year old so I'm a bit confused on the "relatively experienced" bit. And a  third tier club signing a player on a two year deal is if nothing else, noteworthy. 

I'm not myself a major critic of McCall. Personally I think he underestimated the problems he was inheriting and needs that bit more time to turn things about . So I still reckon he's well equipped ability wise to get us back on the right track. Not exactly sure if this signing underlines my confidence or not. Fingers crossed we're on a winner here.

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How unfortunate an incident that none of us will ever know the facts of becomes the main talking point. The internet really is a heap of shite sometimes.

It's none of our business.

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8 hours ago, fenski said:

How unfortunate an incident that none of us will ever know the facts of becomes the main talking point. The internet really is a heap of shite sometimes.

It's none of our business.

Didn’t you know we have a couple of posters who seem to think they know everything and can’t wait to pass us the font of their unending knowledge :smartass:

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9 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Maybe I'm missing something here. The lad's 22 year old so I'm a bit confused on the "relatively experienced" bit. And a  third tier club signing a player on a two year deal is if nothing else, noteworthy. 

I'm not myself a major critic of McCall. Personally I think he underestimated the problems he was inheriting and needs that bit more time to turn things about . So I still reckon he's well equipped ability wise to get us back on the right track. Not exactly sure if this signing underlines my confidence or not. Fingers crossed we're on a winner here.

I probably wasn’t very clear but McKenna particularly at his age now is the kind of player mccall has a great track record of at different clubs (probably not far off age of guts like Shankland was when he started to show under mccall what he could do)

If he had been 10 years or so older I’d be a bit more worried, mccall has struggled more with some of the signings eg McKinnon, Jim Hamilton, Martyn corrigan etc 

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Interesting conversation! 

It set me thinking about the former Dundee Utd, Blackburn, Aberdeen and  current Clyde player David Goodwillie and his pal  David Robertson (who retired from football).  Both players were accused of rape but following a police investigation the Crown Prosecution Service declined to prosecute for lack of evidence. The young woman concerned subsequently won a civil case. 

I am also a great believer in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. For example, the recent Alex Salmond case. While the details of his case showed him not to be the man I thought he was I was never convinced of his guilt. However the Goodwillie case set me in the opposite direction of being convinced of his guilt and a view that the CPS let everyone down by not prosecuting this individual! Although I have never really liked Clyde FC I lost all respect for them when they signed Goodwillie. I saw this as a purely opportunistic signing completely lacking all moral responsibility.  As soon as our League 1 status was confirmed I thought of the prospect of Goodwillie coming to Firhill and considered it to be abhorrent. 

So there I am. I consider an individual who has not even been prosecuted guilty of a criminal act. I still believe in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty" but not in Goodwillie' s case. 

Pity we are powerless to prevent him playing at Firfill. 

I assume (hope) in the case of this new signing the Board and Management have done their 'due diligence'! 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

Interesting conversation! 

It set me thinking about the former Dundee Utd, Blackburn, Aberdeen and  current Clyde player David Goodwillie and his pal  David Robertson (who retired from football).  Both players were accused of rape but following a police investigation the Crown Prosecution Service declined to prosecute for lack of evidence. The young woman concerned subsequently won a civil case. 

I am also a great believer in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. For example, the recent Alex Salmond case. While the details of his case showed him not to be the man I thought he was I was never convinced of his guilt. However the Goodwillie case set me in the opposite direction of being convinced of his guilt and a view that the CPS let everyone down by not prosecuting this individual! Although I have never really liked Clyde FC I lost all respect for them when they signed Goodwillie. I saw this as a purely opportunistic signing completely lacking all moral responsibility.  As soon as our League 1 status was confirmed I thought of the prospect of Goodwillie coming to Firhill and considered it to be abhorrent. 

So there I am. I consider an individual who has not even been prosecuted guilty of a criminal act. I still believe in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty" but not in Goodwillie' s case. 

Pity we are powerless to prevent him playing at Firfill. 

I assume (hope) in the case of this new signing the Board and Management have done their 'due diligence'! 

 

 

 

I don’t think clyde did themselves any favours by then additionally signing Ally Love, whom I’m sure was convicted of racially abusing someone too

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17 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

I don’t think clyde did themselves any favours by then additionally signing Ally Love, whom I’m sure was convicted of racially abusing someone too

He was, but it was after Clyde had signed him. It was either his debut or certainly not long after signing, that he did it. 

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2 hours ago, exiledjag said:

Interesting conversation! 

It set me thinking about the former Dundee Utd, Blackburn, Aberdeen and  current Clyde player David Goodwillie and his pal  David Robertson (who retired from football).  Both players were accused of rape but following a police investigation the Crown Prosecution Service declined to prosecute for lack of evidence. The young woman concerned subsequently won a civil case. 

I am also a great believer in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. For example, the recent Alex Salmond case. While the details of his case showed him not to be the man I thought he was I was never convinced of his guilt. However the Goodwillie case set me in the opposite direction of being convinced of his guilt and a view that the CPS let everyone down by not prosecuting this individual! Although I have never really liked Clyde FC I lost all respect for them when they signed Goodwillie. I saw this as a purely opportunistic signing completely lacking all moral responsibility.  As soon as our League 1 status was confirmed I thought of the prospect of Goodwillie coming to Firhill and considered it to be abhorrent. 

So there I am. I consider an individual who has not even been prosecuted guilty of a criminal act. I still believe in the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty" but not in Goodwillie' s case. 

Pity we are powerless to prevent him playing at Firfill. 

I assume (hope) in the case of this new signing the Board and Management have done their 'due diligence'! 

 

 

 

we played Clyde at home in the League Cup last year so I'm sure he's already played against us at Firhill

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19 minutes ago, jaggy said:

we played Clyde at home in the League Cup last year so I'm sure he's already played against us at Firhill

He did play in that game.

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2 hours ago, CGJags said:

He was, but it was after Clyde had signed him. It was either his debut or certainly not long after signing, that he did it. 

Yeah but they have given him a new contract yet again I see

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Came to see if anyone knew anything about the new singing, what his actual preferred position is, as he is just listed as a defender with no specifics. Also what to expect and if he is of any use on the pitch regardless of any previous unproven allegations off the pitch which shouldn’t be the main topic straight from the off imo. Also liked his interview, saying all the right things that fans want to hear.

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This article explains what I am driving at about the presumption of innocence better than I did.

To deploy it outside of the court room (especially in the context of sexual harassment or assault) diminishes the principle both in the court room and beyond it.

 

Edited by Woodstock Jag

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28 minutes ago, HeWearsNumber9 said:

Came to see if anyone knew anything about the new singing, what his actual preferred position is, as he is just listed as a defender with no specifics. Also what to expect and if he is of any use on the pitch regardless of any previous unproven allegations off the pitch which shouldn’t be the main topic straight from the off imo. Also liked his interview, saying all the right things that fans want to hear.

Yes he does say all the right things, but i have heard far to many players old and new going on about us being a big club etc. The place to do the talking is on the pitch and getting results.

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1 hour ago, Auld Jag said:

Yes he does say all the right things, but i have heard far to many players old and new going on about us being a big club etc. The place to do the talking is on the pitch and getting results.

100% spot on :thumbsup2:

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3 hours ago, jaggy said:

we played Clyde at home in the League Cup last year so I'm sure he's already played against us at Firhill

Didn't know that so thanks for pointing this out. 

Will alter my comment to 'pity he has already played as Firhill and hope he never gets the opportunity to do so again'.

As far as Clyde are concerned regarding Love & Goodwillie, they were exploiting the circumstances to sign players they wouldn't normally have been able to afford and who wouldn't normally have signed for them! 

They have absolutely no moral compass! 

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19 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

 

Acquittal or non-conviction is not and never should be conflated with innocence, even though some acquitted people are innocent.

With the greatest of respect, that is complete b0llocks. 

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21 hours ago, Garscube Road End said:

Let's say it is a cloud hanging over him, innocent or not.

You seem to have misspelt "smear" there.

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3 hours ago, HeWearsNumber9 said:

Came to see if anyone knew anything about the new singing,...that fans want to hear.

This is such a common auto, er, "correction" that perhaps we should make use of it and insist that all new signings have to give a rendering of a song on signing. :D

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