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a f kincaid

Ayr away Friday night.

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2 hours ago, admin said:

Given that you were quick to rush to various football forums to post the video complete with a now much repeated 'amusing' comment (while the game was still in progress I believe) without any attempt to try and establish some kind of context for Foster's behaviour

"Various football forums" - Two.

But also "Given that"... then... what, exactly?

The context for his behaviour was in the original video, including the 10 or so seconds before Foster even reached the touchline, let alone the terraces. It shows that Foster and other players were facing generic abuse and criticism. Things like "you're a ******* embarrassment" "you don't deserve the playoffs" and "you're ******* terrible". All pretty "tame" fare, whether or not it is to your taste.

There was no evidence to support any suggestion of sectarian language or abuse (or indeed anything specific or untoward targeted at Foster or his family). Indeed the remark that prompts Foster to look up and go mental, as the videos (plural) show, was "get a grip you, you ******* idiot".

Any sectarianism is inappropriate and unacceptable. In this case, however, it doesn't provide "context" to Foster's actions. Because there is no evidence that it happened before he acted.

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have made next to no comment on the personal abuse that Foster received, other than to describe it as being the "tame end of offensive" , have made no more than passing reference until pressed to the sectarian abuse, have made reference to Foster being some kind of ambassador, erroneously claiming that he was part of the Women's Team coaching staff, it's not an illogical conclusion to come to that you consider Foster's behaviour as being the primary issue here.

Except I explicitly condemned the second video (just not on here, elsewhere) as, and I quote, "sectarian guff" and "bang out of order". I don't need to set out my views that sectarianism is wrong in every single setting. This isn't Virtue Signal Thursday.

Edit to add: in fact it turns out I even did condemn the sectarianism on here when reports of it first surfaced along with the video in which it is documented as "sectarian nonsense" which was "inexcusable". It was my first post about the incident after the second half video entered the public domain! Hardly "until pressed"!

We can condemn it without trying to twist it into an excuse for Foster's frankly embarrassing behaviour.

I did not "erroneously claim" that he was part of the women's team's coaching staff. I asked whether he was, and pointed out that as a senior player who holds, or has held, additional responsibilities at the Club ought to be expected to behave with more restraint. You helpfully pointed out that he had actually stepped down from that role last season and I thanked you for clarifying.

You're frankly coming across as a little bit weird here.

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It's certainly a more logical conclusion to come to than the assertion that Foster would need to be a time traveller to have heard any sectarian abuse prior to the start of the second half simply because none is audible on a short video. 

It really isn't. The videos (plural) in question cover from when Foster is still on the pitch right through to when he turns and decides to pick a fight with a fan. That is all the context you need to know that it is implausible that sectarian abuse triggered the response. The videos clearly show that Foster reacts to the remark "get a grip you, you ******* idiot".

Edited by Woodstock Jag

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2 hours ago, admin said:

Given that you were quick to rush to various football forums to post the video complete with a now much repeated 'amusing' comment (while the game was still in progress I believe) without any attempt to try and establish some kind of context for Foster's behaviour, have made next to no comment on the personal abuse that Foster received, other than to describe it as being the "tame end of offensive" , have made no more than passing reference until pressed to the sectarian abuse, have made reference to Foster being some kind of ambassador, erroneously claiming that he was part of the Women's Team coaching staff, it's not an illogical conclusion to come to that you consider Foster's behaviour as being the primary issue here. 

It's certainly a more logical conclusion to come to than the assertion that Foster would need to be a time traveller to have heard any sectarian abuse prior to the start of the second half simply because none is audible on a short video. 

There are 2 sets of videos.

(1) Those at start of halftime don’t show any sectarianism or personal abuse towards his wife, but more very heavy criticism towards performance with some very “industrial” language, but no more than you’ll hear on the park between players or towards referees. 

(2)Those at end of halftime directed towards Foster with vile sectarianism and personal comments towards his wife.

Foster reacted (over reacted) to the first set of videos at start of halftime.

Whether the second set at the end of halftime are a reaction towards Fosters attempt to square up are irrelevant as that content is not acceptable at Firhill or in society in general. 

 

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1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

"Various football forums" - Two.

But also "Given that"... then... what, exactly?

The context for his behaviour was in the original video, including the 10 or so seconds before Foster even reached the touchline, let alone the terraces. It shows that Foster and other players were facing generic abuse and criticism. Things like "you're a ******* embarrassment" "you don't deserve the playoffs" and "you're ******* terrible". All pretty "tame" fare, whether or not it is to your taste.

There was no evidence to support any suggestion of sectarian language or abuse (or indeed anything specific or untoward targeted at Foster or his family). Indeed the remark that prompts Foster to look up and go mental, as the videos (plural) show, was "get a grip you, you ******* idiot".

Any sectarianism is inappropriate and unacceptable. In this case, however, it doesn't provide "context" to Foster's actions. Because there is no evidence that it happened before he acted.

Except I explicitly condemned the second video (just not on here, elsewhere) as, and I quote, "sectarian guff" and "bang out of order". I don't need to set out my views that sectarianism is wrong in every single setting. This isn't Virtue Signal Thursday.

Edit to add: in fact it turns out I even did condemn the sectarianism on here when reports of it first surfaced along with the video in which it is documented as "sectarian nonsense" which was "inexcusable". It was my first post about the incident after the second half video entered the public domain! Hardly "until pressed"!

We can condemn it without trying to twist it into an excuse for Foster's frankly embarrassing behaviour.

I did not "erroneously claim" that he was part of the women's team's coaching staff. I asked whether he was, and pointed out that as a senior player who holds, or has held, additional responsibilities at the Club ought to be expected to behave with more restraint. You helpfully pointed out that he had actually stepped down from that role last season and I thanked you for clarifying.

You're frankly coming across as a little bit weird here.

It really isn't. The videos (plural) in question cover from when Foster is still on the pitch right through to when he turns and decides to pick a fight with a fan. That is all the context you need to know that it is implausible that sectarian abuse triggered the response. The videos clearly show that Foster reacts to the remark "get a grip you, you ******* idiot".

Your lengthy reply, which focuses more on 'when' what was said rather than the nature of what was said, doesn't really convince me that you don't consider Foster's behaviour to be the more important issue here. 

He admits himself he was wrong to react and, of course, he was. 

I'm more concerned at the fact that sectarian abuse was hurled in his direction than how he behaved. 

And just as an aside to end my own involvement in this debate, the absence of video evidence of sectarian abuse isn't proof that there wasn't any or conclusive proof of when it was delivered. It would be a false premise to suggest otherwise. 

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41 minutes ago, admin said:

Your lengthy reply, which focuses more on 'when' what was said rather than the nature of what was said, doesn't really convince me that you don't consider Foster's behaviour to be the more important issue here. 

Things that are plainly wrong can be dealt with succinctly.

Things about which there is misunderstanding or disagreement (for example some people not realising that the video with audible sectarian abuse came after, not before, the Scrappy Doo incident) usually involve more discussion.

This is not an indication of priorities or importance, but accuracy.

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He admits himself he was wrong to react and, of course, he was.

But he’s offering something as an excuse for which there is no (disclosed or apparent) evidence.

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I'm more concerned at the fact that sectarian abuse was hurled in his direction than how he behaved.

I am concerned about both. The existence of sectarianism within our fanbase isn’t a reason not to care about the example our senior players set.

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And just as an aside to end my own involvement in this debate, the absence of video evidence of sectarian abuse isn't proof that there wasn't any or conclusive proof of when it was delivered. It would be a false premise to suggest otherwise. 

No one is suggesting that it is “proof” or “conclusive proof”.

But in the absence of evidence, and the absence of a reasonable explanation for the absence of evidence, the onus is on those claiming there was sectarian abuse to provoke him, not on those who say videos of the original incident disclose no evidence of it.

The video provides prima facie evidence that he reacted to the remark “get a grip you, you ******* idiot”. It was immediately after that that Foster turned around, and nothing else was said before he started to make a beeline for the fans.

Those are the facts as documented, and they are supported by other eye-witness accounts.

Condemnation should focus on things that actually happened.

Edited by Woodstock Jag

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I think we are all actually saying the same thing.  There was abuse of some kind, Foster reacted. 

To paraphrase an old saying, this weeks newspapers are next weeks fish & chip wrappers. 

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6 hours ago, sandy said:

I think we are all actually saying the same thing.  There was abuse of some kind, Foster reacted. 

To paraphrase an old saying, this weeks newspapers are next weeks fish & chip wrappers. 

Pretty much like the contents of most of this thread.

And for some of us older folk, not so much fish and chip wrappers as poor quality toilet paper.

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