Jordanhill Jag Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 22 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: Even taking this thoroughly dubious "pro rata" approach of Jim's to ownership of property at its highest: the fans owned less than 10% of Firhill before PropCo was formed in 2009 (via their Jags Trust shareholding) the fans owned even less than 10% of it after PropCo acquired the Main Stand and Bing, with the Club itself retaining a 50% interest in PropCo but others being preferential shareholders in PropCo the fans owned slightly less than 20% of it between October 2015 (when the PTFC Trust was created with a 19% shareholding) the fans owned less than 30% of it even after the Main Stand and Bing were returned to the Club in April 2022 And even after the 3BC shares went to the PTFC Trust in August 2022, the combined shareholdings of the PTFC Trust and Jags Trust was 81%. So even then "the fans" didn't own 19% of Firhill. The entire exercise of apportionment like this is of course a legal and economic nonsense, because the legal powers and rights of a shareholder are completely different from the legal powers and rights of an owner of property. See this is at the Core of the West Wing ideology of TJF and there wee focus on “ Power “ selling shares = selling assets no matter the Spin or circumstances in which the Asset will be redeemed You have finite Assets which is in the Main Firhill - you cant sell the same Asset Twice Now both the Board & TJF think they are being very clever / run up losses but it doesn't matter as we will get Free Money from “ someone” sell off a few Shares / as long as we have the German Model 51% ( which no one ever actually agreed to ) Put out selective financial info - no one reads it anyway - TJF make noises about stricter financial controls ( but no actual Red Lines -if there not met) Get Tranche 2 - buy some time hopefully something turns up - keep trading as we are with the average loss of £250K per Season thats it - thats the Plan ( and has been for some time) everyone keeps there positions - job done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 3 minutes ago, Albert's Ghost said: Shares and assets aren't the same thing. You've been told that countless times. Eh yes they are when you liquidate a Company Voluntary your entitled to a Share of the Company Assets in line with your Shareholding - what do you think your buying when you purchase Shares ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted November 21 Author Report Share Posted November 21 17 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Eh yes they are Eh no they aren't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 2 hours ago, Albert's Ghost said: Shares and assets aren't the same thing. 2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Eh yes they are 1 hour ago, Albert's Ghost said: Eh no they aren't I don't know but I want to join in. So https://static.wegottickets.com/images/events/66f2d2deb26cb_event.jpeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robphil Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 As usual, the good Lady B makes a lot of sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted November 21 Author Report Share Posted November 21 You have to meet fire with fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 If I'm a member of TJF and TJF have shares , so by the logic presented I own a bit of Firhill. My contribution is modest so perhaps best represented physically as part of a seat in the stadium. However I'm also as season ticket holder and entitled to a seat. So have I just bought the same asset twice? Or am I being deliberately obtuse as the conversation is going wildly off beam when the real significant point is still: We are over spending, what's the plan to reduce the overspend? Answers so far seem to range from 1. Get promoted (fingers crossed, by far the best and most enjoyable plan) 2. Get more fans in the door and get them to buy more stuff (seems like we're already doing that but not clear on if its making any difference?) 3. Cut back non-playing staff (Is there a plan?) 4. Cut back playing staff budget (This will be were the axe falls if none of the above happens) 5. Get another lottery winner (fingers crossed again) 6. Sell more shores to an investor and dilute fan ownership (In football there seem to be more devious investors that kind hearted, Mr McClymont looks like a good guy but there aren't many of them about) If there are other options then great lets discuss this but this topic is well into eye bleeding territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 On 11/19/2024 at 9:35 PM, Jordanhill Jag said: The core part is that they sold off Assetts to cover trading losses never a good strategy on any level after tranche 2 - we will only own 65% of Firhill This is not true. The ground was sold by the directors for £1.3 million to partly fund their new stadium, with the company buying the land also going to put part of the profit from housing built into funding the new stadium. The shale companies who purchased the land are owned by the same Norwegian (not me) business man who owns the club. He never paid it, part of that money was costed to spend on other projects which was spent, now leaving them with a shortfall as the none of it has turned up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 3 hours ago, laukat said: However I'm also as season ticket holder and entitled to a seat. So have I just bought the same asset twice? Ignoring the more serious points, I think that you lease the asset that you part own. You certainly don’t buy the seat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 On 11/20/2024 at 10:20 AM, scotty said: Surely that asset also includes the football club and the business. Are you saying that any business is only worth its physical assets. So if there is a multi-million business running from a portacabin its only value is the cabin? A business has Tangible Assets and non tangible Assetts - the second is in essence a Value that is subjective a Business like PTFC has very little Non Tangible Assets so we are left with the Stadium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted November 21 Report Share Posted November 21 5 hours ago, Albert's Ghost said: You have to meet fire with fire! That is what my father used to say, just before he was sacked by the Fire Brigade! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanieD Posted November 22 Report Share Posted November 22 In the early to mid 70s we had a reasonable rivalry with Dumbarton - they tended to be a bit of a bogey side tbh. Given their history it is a real pity that they find themselves in straitened circumstances - and the comments above regarding the weekly exodus from the area to the east part of Glasgow are well made. I'm tempted to add "there but for the Grace of God........" but am afraid that could spark some tedious and selective economic arguments and pollute this thread so I will desist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted November 22 Author Report Share Posted November 22 6 minutes ago, JeanieD said: tedious and selective economic arguments what can he mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagfox Posted November 22 Report Share Posted November 22 40 minutes ago, Albert's Ghost said: what can he mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted November 23 Report Share Posted November 23 7 hours ago, JeanieD said: In the early to mid 70s we had a reasonable rivalry with Dumbarton - they tended to be a bit of a bogey side tbh. Given their history it is a real pity that they find themselves in straitened circumstances - and the comments above regarding the weekly exodus from the area to the east part of Glasgow are well made. I'm tempted to add "there but for the Grace of God........" but am afraid that could spark some tedious and selective economic arguments and pollute this thread so I will desist. Did someone say ‘tranche’? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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