Guy Incognito Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I feel that any decision about proffesional sport will always be taken with financial concerns playing a prominent part. What however makes Michael Johnstones comment particularly cringeworthy, is that he effectively says that Rangers can do whatever they want and the other clubs have no alternative but to meekly accept their behaviour. Its one thing being financially realistic, in my view its another entirely to accept your sole role is to act as the supporting cast for a crowd of sectarian bigots whose so called history and identity seems to involve nothing more than thinking they have a right to express vile sectarian and other abuse to all and sundry. This is totally ignored by the media in this country, or treated as an acceptable part of life. My God what kind of society do we mant to bring our children up in. And tw*ts like Jonston are exactly the sort to bang on about traditional family values! Apologies for going a bit off topic myself, but I feel sport must retain at least a figleaf of integrity and honesty or otherwhise whats the point? Can't disagree with any of that. The SPL will probably say that the sanctions imposed on Rangers, i.e. the transfer embargo and the mooted points deduction, are their way of upholding the integrity of the game, which completely ignores the fact that they are re-writing the rulebook to shoehorn Rangers back in to the SPL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggyman Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 I feel that any decision about proffesional sport will always be taken with financial concerns playing a prominent part. What however makes Michael Johnstones comment particularly cringeworthy, is that he effectively says that Rangers can do whatever they want and the other clubs have no alternative but to meekly accept their behaviour. Its one thing being financially realistic, in my view its another entirely to accept your sole role is to act as the supporting cast for a crowd of sectarian bigots whose so called history and identity seems to involve nothing more than thinking they have a right to express vile sectarian and other abuse to all and sundry. This is totally ignored by the media in this country, or treated as an acceptable part of life. My God what kind of society do we mant to bring our children up in. And tw*ts like Jonston are exactly the sort to bang on about traditional family values! Apologies for going a bit off topic myself, but I feel sport must retain at least a figleaf of integrity and honesty or otherwhise whats the point? Its no longer about the sport unfortunately and if all this fiasco goes through then sadly there is no point in attending matches anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Its no longer about the sport unfortunately and if all this fiasco goes through then sadly there is no point in attending matches anymore If Rangers are back in the SPL next season (in whatever form) one has to hope they are so severely damaged they struggle in all competitions otherwise how obnoxious, how lording-it-over the rest of us do you think they will become. They were bad enough before but then they would know the rest of the league is scared of them. I used to sometimes wonder if my feelings about their fans were a bit OTT but recent events have shown I didn't despise them as much as they deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrD Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) If Rangers are back in the SPL next season (in whatever form) one has to hope they are so severely damaged they struggle in all competitions otherwise how obnoxious, how lording-it-over the rest of us do you think they will become. They were bad enough before but then they would know the rest of the league is scared of them. I used to sometimes wonder if my feelings about their fans were a bit OTT but recent events have shown I didn't despise them as much as they deserve. rangers will be better off regardless of what punishment gets imposed on them, rather than the alternative of having to service 140 million odd debts. if its about what should happen, it should be the same fate that happened to gretna following their liquidation, namely that they were refused entry to sfl on the grounds of not having 3 years worth of accounts as a new entity as a qualifying condition. rangers should be in junior and thats it. but that wont happen, and as touched on in another post, the fans will be back no matter what moaning they utter at occasions like this. EDITED TO ADD: im definately not one of the nieve ones who would have thought that anything other than money would talk - ive been of the opinion that the jags should move to english football for some years now.. Edited May 6, 2012 by mrD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrD Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 This is maybe going a wee bit off topic now but I think the football authorities in Scotland would be looking at the Rangers situation far more scrupulously if they weren't shit-scared by the possibility of losing out on TV revenue. Jaggernaut is right: the SFA's crass decision making has nothing to do with Scotland's constitutional position and everything to do capitalism calling the shots; and that's something all western democracies bow to in one way or another. For instance, look at the dodgy dealings that go on in Italian football and think how long have they been an independent nation. Its not directly related to the constitutional question but it does say something about our civic society, about how we go about things in voluntary associations, how they negotiate themselves within the legal framework, and how accountable they are to their own association, the govt, and to the populace as a whole. Given that football is arguably the most important cultural force in scotland, how this situation transpires offers us an insight into the ability of us as a civic society to deal with matters, and that does have implications for the question of whether we are ready for the responsibility of managing all our affairs.. Whilst England has its accountability issues, like all societies do (and particularly in relation to being swayed by the interests of capital), when the whole wimbledon debacal happened, the implications of it were discussed at parliament, and lessons were learned that england was not going to slip into having franchise football. There was also the football task force report which consulted with a variety of bodies from all stakeholders from the tv companies, the governing bodies, and supporters, as mediated by the football supporters federation (of whom we do not have an ecquivalent of - another demonstration of how badly we are organised this side of the border). This report, for all its problems fairly represented views of all parties, and although it was watered down in its application, it was discussed throughout all levels of society and had an influence upon the general discourse, and it is there to be cited by various fan campaigns (for example, man u fans used the report to justify their arguements for having a graded pricing policy at old trafford) compare that, with what happened when we had our former first minister doing his report. he consulted with key stakeholders including fans, and the findings were colt teams in 3rd division , ten team spl, and more distrubution of resources in favour of the top clubs. Regarding rangers, look at salmonds pathetic posturing regarding going easy on the tax dodge, in a time of austerity, when we need as much revenue in our coffers as possible. Alex thompsons interview with hugh keevins presents a great insight into the role our media plays in holding the powers that be into account. nah, i think ill take my chances with westminster, a mature democracy that has its problems but has been refined over a long period following the glorius revolution rather than this hicksville feifdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Should all our worst fears/expectations come to pass and the sons of Wullie get off virtually Scot free, what would be the chances of one or two clubs with a reasonable claim to still having integrity getting together and bringing about a judicial review of the grubby goings-on at Hunbrox? This, I assume, would be lodged on the basis of long-term detriment which would inevitably be suffered by non-aesthetically impaired female sibling clubs. Just as a by the way, are the hu n-appointed administrators' taxi meter fees viewable anywhere online? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 Just as a by the way, are the hu n-appointed administrators' taxi meter fees viewable anywhere online? No idea, BJ, but the figure of £6K a day has been doing the rounds. I'd assume an overall figure of over £500K to date & rising would be a conservative enough guesstimate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrD Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 i probably will end up voting for independance or devo max. im just fkin raging about this rangers situation!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted May 6, 2012 Report Share Posted May 6, 2012 No idea, BJ, but the figure of £6K a day has been doing the rounds. I'd assume an overall figure of over £500K to date & rising would be a conservative enough guesstimate. They are apparently on nearly £600 an hour apparently plus extras and could have a bill beleived to be between 1 and 2 million quid already with the concensious being closer to 2, it was reported in the press after 1st month of admin that rangers had brought in £1million where the administrators fees were £1,1 million for the same period Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 i probably will end up voting for independance or devo max. im just fkin raging about this rangers situation!!! Don't forget what the Lardy Empty Vessel thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Don't forget what the Lardy Empty Vessel thinks. And don't forget that the British PM, Cameron, also want's the h u n s to survive and prosper; he's quoted in the same article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Its not directly related to the constitutional question but it does say something about our civic society, about how we go about things in voluntary associations, how they negotiate themselves within the legal framework, and how accountable they are to their own association, the govt, and to the populace as a whole. Given that football is arguably the most important cultural force in scotland, how this situation transpires offers us an insight into the ability of us as a civic society to deal with matters, and that does have implications for the question of whether we are ready for the responsibility of managing all our affairs.. Whilst England has its accountability issues, like all societies do (and particularly in relation to being swayed by the interests of capital), when the whole wimbledon debacal happened, the implications of it were discussed at parliament, and lessons were learned that england was not going to slip into having franchise football. There was also the football task force report which consulted with a variety of bodies from all stakeholders from the tv companies, the governing bodies, and supporters, as mediated by the football supporters federation (of whom we do not have an ecquivalent of - another demonstration of how badly we are organised this side of the border). This report, for all its problems fairly represented views of all parties, and although it was watered down in its application, it was discussed throughout all levels of society and had an influence upon the general discourse, and it is there to be cited by various fan campaigns (for example, man u fans used the report to justify their arguements for having a graded pricing policy at old trafford) compare that, with what happened when we had our former first minister doing his report. he consulted with key stakeholders including fans, and the findings were colt teams in 3rd division , ten team spl, and more distrubution of resources in favour of the top clubs. Regarding rangers, look at salmonds pathetic posturing regarding going easy on the tax dodge, in a time of austerity, when we need as much revenue in our coffers as possible. Alex thompsons interview with hugh keevins presents a great insight into the role our media plays in holding the powers that be into account. nah, i think ill take my chances with westminster, a mature democracy that has its problems but has been refined over a long period following the glorius revolution rather than this hicksville feifdom. I understand where you are coming from but with the exception of die-hard bluenoses I doubt there are many people out there - and by that I mean the average man on the street, not posturing politicians - who feel that Rangers Newco should be parachuted straight back in to the SPL as if nothing has happened. The very fact that this thread even exists - and there will doubtless be threads on the same subject on other football message boards - is proof enough of that. That, then, doesn't suggest to me that Scottish society in general is somehow more backward than our overlords down south, although it does indicate that football in Scotland is craply run (I don't know if it is relevant at this point to note the nationality of the men currently in charge of both the SPL and SFA). English football is run far more fairly than the game up here; I have admitted as much earlier in the thread. But the comparison with Wimbledon - a club more akin to Gretna than Rangers - doesn't hold water. It would be interesting to see what the English football authorities would do if, for instance, Man Utd found themselves in similar circumstances to Rangers. I doubt they would be as comfortable watching them go to the wall as they were Wimbledon. As regards the 'off-topic' issue: well, fine, that is a matter for you and you conscience. I would suggest, though, that a parliament which deploys a first-past-the-post electory system isn't quite as mature as you think it is. Personally, I still believe there are enough people up here bright enough to make it work without the assistance of those nice chaps from England. It is just a shame that too few are employed by the football authorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Got to agree with GI's take on the Wimbledon situation, Mr D: a comparable RFC scenario would be more like the new owners relocating to, say, Edinburgh and renaming the new club Edinburgh Gers or something like that. The hunnish hordes would never buy into a nonsense like that, as did WFC diehards pish on that sort of idea, hence the fan-organised football trials which ensued shortly thereafter on Wimbledon Common, and the rest is (great) history. In the absence of any business law knowledge whatsoever, I need to to try to get my nut round this 'heads the hu ns win and tails the creditors lose' scheme. Seemingly, if the new owners come out of administration, thereby avoiding liquidation, the debts remain and the club gets into discussions with creditors on how much each will get in the £ via a CVA. The club, however, still get to keep the assets: eg stadium, training ground etc. That just doesn't seem right: isn't it the case that when any party runs up significant debts, they are normally forced to sell off their assets (eg their houses, cars etc) to service/settle those debts? Wasn't it the case that Dundee didn't have to get into the hassle of selling off their stadium simply because they didn't own it? And secondly, if they are liquidated (my preferred outcome for the feckers!), won't their assets automatically be liquidated: ie flogged off to help repay creditors as the company which presently rejoices under the title of RFC would be officially dead? My issue is that there seems to be no mention whatsoever anywhere in the media that the future Rangers - regardless of what form that entity takes either post-administration or post-liquidation - will be bereft of 'their' stadium. This surely cannot be right or acceptable to anybody outside the orange culture, regardless of what happens to them football-wise. Maybe I should learn to be far less naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 And don't forget that the British PM, Cameron, also want's the h u n s to survive and prosper; he's quoted in the same article. No surprises there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Meeting and decision adjourned till the 30th of May according to BBC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) Meeting and decision adjourned till the 30th of May according to BBC At last some decisive action. Unlike most of their previous adjournments I hear this one is more a case of positive procrastination. Perhaps by the 30th the lobster will be back on the lunch menu and the Bordeaux will be served chambré and allowed enough time to breath. Edited May 7, 2012 by lady-isobel-barnett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted May 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 At last some decisive action. Unlike most of their previous adjournments I hear this one is more a case of positive procrastination. Perhaps by the 30th the lobster will be back on the lunch menu and the Bordeaux will be served chambré and allowed enough time to breath. Your ladyship must have been mixing with the lower classes at Firhill for too long. Bordeaux with lobster!!! The mere thought of it gives me a fit of the vapours.....now, what you really want with lobster is a bottle or two of my Chateau Milo 2012 Gerwurtztraminer....lovely. Or, if you must have red, why not wait a few weeks and have a gutsy Rioja with something big and meaty......I hear there's a large beast. on the south side of Glasgow which is ready to be slaughtered and carved up; it should provide some feasting for us all..........if we have patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Caught this article in the ET: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/cheers-and-tears-turn-into-fears-for-players-jaded-farewell-to-arms.17527392 McCoist said something interesting about three paragraphs toward the end, and I'm surprised no reporter called him out on it: "Phone lines on radio stations are jammed with non-Rangers supporters saying we should go down to Division Three. "I can understand that. But it is not just as simple as that because I do believe there would be a threat to the livelihood of some other clubs in the SPL if that were to happen. That is not something I would say lightly. "In terms of the finance of Scottish football – sponsorship and television money and things like that – it is a massive, massive issue. The right thing to do might be the wrong thing in the long run. It is a big problem." It seems pretty clear from that statement that he is admitting that Rangers deserve to be kicked down to Division Three in the spirit of playing by the rules - with the caveat that doing the "right thing" will have disastrous financial implications to other teams. I'm surprised this didn't get a bigger spotlight because I think it's the first time we've seen anyone associated with Rangers admit that such a penalty is deserved and justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy davie Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I'm surprised this didn't get a bigger spotlight because I think it's the first time we've seen anyone associated with Rangers admit that such a penalty is deserved and justified. I think he's been saying this for a while actually... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggyman Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Caught this article in the ET: http://www.eveningti...o-arms.17527392 McCoist said something interesting about three paragraphs toward the end, and I'm surprised no reporter called him out on it: "Phone lines on radio stations are jammed with non-Rangers supporters saying we should go down to Division Three. "I can understand that. But it is not just as simple as that because I do believe there would be a threat to the livelihood of some other clubs in the SPL if that were to happen. That is not something I would say lightly. "In terms of the finance of Scottish football – sponsorship and television money and things like that – it is a massive, massive issue. The right thing to do might be the wrong thing in the long run. It is a big problem." It seems pretty clear from that statement that he is admitting that Rangers deserve to be kicked down to Division Three in the spirit of playing by the rules - with the caveat that doing the "right thing" will have disastrous financial implications to other teams. I'm surprised this didn't get a bigger spotlight because I think it's the first time we've seen anyone associated with Rangers admit that such a penalty is deserved and justified. Very easy for mccoist to say these things when he knows its not gona happen. One thing about this that i have noticed is the furore about the ebt's i havent heard one single player or ex player say that they didnt have one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Endell Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 "I can understand that. But it is not just as simple as that because I do believe there would be a threat to the livelihood of some other clubs in the SPL if that were to happen. That is not something I would say lightly. "In terms of the finance of Scottish football – sponsorship and television money and things like that – it is a massive, massive issue. Only thinking of others, even with Rangers in desperate straits. Heart of gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 It seems pretty clear from that statement that he is admitting that Rangers deserve to be kicked down to Division Three in the spirit of playing by the rules - with the caveat that doing the "right thing" will have disastrous financial implications to other teams. I'm surprised this didn't get a bigger spotlight because I think it's the first time we've seen anyone associated with Rangers admit that such a penalty is deserved and justified. Don't get your surprise. The media (with the very occasional exception of one or two reporters) has always been totally sycophnatic to the OF and especially Rangers. Remember the old phrase? "Fans with typewriters (word processors to yous born in the last 2 decades)". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blutarsky Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Decent blog by Aberdeen supporters that challenges the prevailing view of financial dependence on the OF. http://www.donssupporterstogether.com/dst-on-rangers-newco-sporting-integrity-and-the-financial-reality/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Has Alex Thomson discovered a plaw in the RFC / Millar plan? alex thomson@alextomo I wonder how the mood will develop in Tennessee once a little more reality dawns on what Miller's into - now comes the tough part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Decent blog by Aberdeen supporters that challenges the prevailing view of financial dependence on the OF. http://www.donssuppo...ancial-reality/ Some other good points too on motivations of media guys, etc. They make good points about the lost money without rangers. I think they exaggerate how little damge it would do. I think there would be a hit but not as bad a hit as some are claiming, certainly a hit most could survivie. They also mkae the good point that any damage would be done to the SPL, not to the whole of Scottish football. Divs 1-3 would be little affected. Here's something I saw on another forum, re this claim we must consider finance before integrity: "What would happen in the following scenario - Newco Rangers are in the SPL next season but severely weakened by the transfer embargo etc. They bump around the bottom of the league all season and on the last day travel to Rugby Park needing 3-points to avoid relegation. Does the Kilmarnock chairman instruct the manager and players to roll over and let Rangers win?" Edited May 8, 2012 by Mr Bunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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