Rangers Fc- A Nation Mourns?

[Barney Rubble]

Agreed it will happen soon but as yet it has not therefore the thrust of my arguement is why are rangers being banned from signing for 12 months whereas Motherwell did the same thing ,made players redundant and and signed two of our best players the next season for double our wages.We need a consistancy -if and when the double contracts come out throw the book at them-this way you allow them off the hook by claiming they are victims-very poorly handled imo.

 

Look, let's accept what actually happened.

 

Do you honestly think that these guys didn't have options other than Gerry Collins that year?

 

The bold bit above is the reason we lost these players. Nothing to do with administration or any of that bullshit.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Barney Rubble

[One t in Scotland]

 

 

One is moved to ask why the difference between 2nd and 3rd place amounts to 5.5% whereas everywhere else in the league the difference between two adjacent teams is tiny.

 

Oh, I forgot: 1st and 2nd places are guaranteed to be the h u n s and the t i m s.

 

Of no current concern to me. If you want to take cash off the OF and give it to other SPL teams fine. My interest is that more of the cash pot filters down to Division 1. What's the difference in cash between teams finishing 12th and 13th?

[Jaggernaut]

Of no current concern to me. If you want to take cash off the OF and give it to other SPL teams fine. My interest is that more of the cash pot filters down to Division 1. What's the difference in cash between teams finishing 12th and 13th?

 

Good point. "For the good of Scottish football" is a myth when it comes from most people involved in the SPL.

[One t in Scotland]

 

 

Good point. "For the good of Scottish football" is a myth when it comes from most people involved in the SPL.

Unfortunately if Thistle were in the SPL I have no doubt the club would vote RFC ( new ) back into the league. At least our current lowly status spares us that unedifying sight.

[Guy Incognito]

 

:lol:

[Jaggyman]

Unfortunately if Thistle were in the SPL I have no doubt the club would vote RFC ( new ) back into the league. At least our current lowly status spares us that unedifying sight.

 

I would hope the clubs would ask their fans what they thought as i have heard of many who have said they are finished with football if newco are allowed to go straight into the spl

[Winter of '63]

Agreed it will happen soon but as yet it has not therefore the thrust of my arguement is why are rangers being banned from signing for 12 months whereas Motherwell did the same thing ,made players redundant and and signed two of our best players the next season for double our wages.We need a consistancy -if and when the double contracts come out throw the book at them-this way you allow them off the hook by claiming they are victims-very poorly handled imo.

Under current SPL Rules, a 10 point penalty is imposed on any club which goes into administration. When Motherwell ( and Dundee and Livingston) went into administration, there was no such rule.

The transfer embargo has been imposed because of various other breaches of SPL rules by Rangers and Craig Whyte such as failing to pass on payments to other clubs and not because they are in administration.

They will be liable to further penalties if they are found to have been in breach of regulations regarding double contracts.

Rangers will have to get used to the fact that penalties can be given against them.

[mrD]

ive been convinced that 'schits fcked' beyond repair when it comes to scottish football for a long time. my basic conclusion was that we were past the point of return, especially with the disparity between the old firm and the rest that has since the david murray/fergus mccann era has gone to proportions that is unassailable. The whole set up from the media, to local government, the football authorites etc have it embedded that protecting the interest of the old firm is protecting the interests of scottihs football as a whole.

 

Consequently, i have been of the opinion that a team like partick thistle would be better served by making an application to join the english regional leagues, as it would suit both its sporting and buisness interests to be involved in a league/market where whilst there is disparity in wealth and power, the basic framework holding it all together conforms to some notions of fair practice. Whilst, i accept, such an idea seems a bit mental, i think as far as a thought experiment there is more merit to it than the ususal football wnk fantasises that people indulge in useually along the lines of 'what sort of league structure we should have'. Even if we had a 16 or 18 team league next season, its too late, its closing the door after the horse has bolted.

 

So i have pretty much given up on scottish football, i watch match of the day with my daughter, i have taken her to like 3 or 4 partick thistle games the last couple of years, mainly out of nostalgia towards the experiences i had when i was a kid when my dad used to take me to see thistle when i was a young lad.

 

But, this rangers thing, for the first time, i though yeah, if things are managed properly, if people hold the line, (ie by getting them to fck) then there could be a turning point for scottish football for the better. Celtic would definately decline in such a scenario, and i think teams like aberdeen, hibs, hearts, could start to develop their market share. There would also in a situation like that be scope for a well managed thistle, from the board room to the dugout to develop themselves as a fanbase, as a team, and as a brand. Suffice to say, for the first time in years i started to feel a slight sence of optimism for the future. In a context like this - id say i would defiantely get involved in football again - and i bet there was lots of former football daft peeps thinking thoughts like that.

 

But lets face it, such optimisim is as daft as my idea of us joining english football, the proverbial 18 team idea that people trumpet that will never happen, and of some sort of lasting social justice upon the world. The last few days turn of events just goes to underline how ****** the situation is.

 

The games a bogey.. I put my hands up - i dont understand why people still give a schit about football and their team in this context. this should be a wake up call to walk away.

[gianlucatoni]

Rangers will have to get used to the fact that penalties can be given against them.

 

[Mr Scruff]

The games a bogey.. I put my hands up - i dont understand why people still give a schit about football and their team in this context. this should be a wake up call to walk away.

I've supported Thistle (and football in Scotland) for a good number of years, and have always faced those who can't understand why. It would seem easier, and more sane for some, to support teams challenging in the bigger and more glamorous leagues. But I support my local team, and yes this makes me one of the "thick and thin" mob as is often ridiculed.

 

The path of the Thistle fan is not always an easy one. But a missed opportunity like this would not distract me from that. It would be a sad day for me if my only football fare was TV games between the EPL, Champions League etc. My team play in a structure where they can always strive to do better.

 

This is a serious issue. But we've always had a disparity between the rich clubs and the more modest. Most leagues are like that; ours differs due to the longevity and size of the disparity, but ti's a growing trend. I'm not a supporter of independence, but I'd hate to only have remote football in England to follow. In fact, at that point I would give up...

[stillresigned]

The whole Rangers saga apart from being particularly unedifiying and tiresome reveals the fundamental faultline in Scottish Football and some may even infer in Scottish society itself. Without wishing to attribute Manichean motives to the discussion, it is clear that we have reached a point of fundamental divergence from the status quo. If Scottish football needs the continued unreformed involvement of one club and its supporters then surely that raises some fairly existential questions of Scottish Football? In fact the entire edifice is built on a house of cards. You get the feeling that to remove such a supposedly important building block as Glasgow Rangers the whole building will come crashing down. Indeed, if the authorities in this country seek simply to apply a cosmetic renovation job without a thorough overhaul of their procedures this is exactly what will happen. Instead, the Rangers saga,, provides the powers that be with an (almost!) wholly unexpected avenue and legitimacy of pursuing change. They dare not refuse to pursue it , or Scottish football will die.

[Jaggernaut]

The whole Rangers saga apart from being particularly unedifiying and tiresome reveals the fundamental faultline in Scottish Football and some may even infer in Scottish society itself. Without wishing to attribute Manichean motives to the discussion, it is clear that we have reached a point of fundamental divergence from the status quo. If Scottish football needs the continued unreformed involvement of one club and its supporters then surely that raises some fairly existential questions of Scottish Football? In fact the entire edifice is built on a house of cards. You get the feeling that to remove such a supposedly important building block as Glasgow Rangers the whole building will come crashing down. Indeed, if the authorities in this country seek simply to apply a cosmetic renovation job without a thorough overhaul of their procedures this is exactly what will happen. Instead, the Rangers saga,, provides the powers that be with an (almost!) wholly unexpected avenue and legitimacy of pursuing change. They dare not refuse to pursue it , or Scottish football will die.

 

Absolutely correct. We can only hope that all of the chairmen of other clubs realize the enormity of this issue. Is the reason for their existence solely to make up the numbers so that the OF can dominate for ever more, regardless of the ways in which they will do it? If they truly care about the game and the feelings of their clubs' own supporters, they will make sure that the h u n s get very severely punished, and indeed take this opportunity to re-organize the way football is structured in this country.

[Jordanhill Jag]

Here is a wee scenario our board should look at if Rangers get away scot free.

 

As our main assets are half owned by propco with a clause if we go bust they get the lot, we run up a massive debt signing the likes of messi, rooney etc etc romp the leagues, get caught and transfer everything to Propco (our newco)with a 10 point deduction and a 1 year transfer ban, whilst holding on to our SPL status, pay the players 3 years up front so they dont need to be sold and bingo we get passed the transfer embargo, and can continue winning the league.

 

Crazy, corrupt or just playing the system created by the powers that be to help a great scottish institute that we couldnt allow to fail (ie Rangers)

 

We sign a Barca player Im ripping up my Season Ticket - FORCA ESPANYOL

[Dick Dastardly]

Absolutely correct. We can only hope that all of the chairmen of other clubs realize the enormity of this issue. Is the reason for their existence solely to make up the numbers so that the OF can dominate for ever more, regardless of the ways in which they will do it? If they truly care about the game and the feelings of their clubs' own supporters, they will make sure that the h u n s get very severely punished, and indeed take this opportunity to re-organize the way football is structured in this country.

 

I do have some sympathy for the non-old firm SPL chairmen. As a football fan, I know what I want for the best of the game in Scotland, but he is incharge of a small business in a struggling market. With presure from his creditors, it would take a brave man to vote for a slightly larger share of a much smaller market (all be it one that has the potential to grow) as opposed to the existing status with some penalties against one of your rivals that may give you a small advantage for a short time.

 

Long ago football stopped being a sport and became a business market and the Chairmen need to carefully consider what is in the best interest of their own business.

[Steven H]

Here's an idea: Lets just liquidate every Scottish professional club and allow them all to form a Newco. Every club is now debt free, no need for punishment as we're all in the same boat. Far fetched? Yes but if this turns out the way we all fear then that is effectively what message is being sent out. If Rankers get back into the SPL with minimal punishment after liquidation there's nothing to stop Killie and Hearts (both very much on their uppers) doing the exact same thing. Oh wait, yeah I forgot, they're not the people

[mrD]

I've supported Thistle (and football in Scotland) for a good number of years, and have always faced those who can't understand why. It would seem easier, and more sane for some, to support teams challenging in the bigger and more glamorous leagues. But I support my local team, and yes this makes me one of the "thick and thin" mob as is often ridiculed.

 

The path of the Thistle fan is not always an easy one. But a missed opportunity like this would not distract me from that. It would be a sad day for me if my only football fare was TV games between the EPL, Champions League etc. My team play in a structure where they can always strive to do better.

 

This is a serious issue. But we've always had a disparity between the rich clubs and the more modest. Most leagues are like that; ours differs due to the longevity and size of the disparity, but ti's a growing trend. I'm not a supporter of independence, but I'd hate to only have remote football in England to follow. In fact, at that point I would give up...

 

i know this chap who is part of a group of motherwell supporters who have been going to the games regularly for decades. they have decided that in the event of a newco being allowed back into the spl, with minimal penalties, with their market share intact, debt free as things are looking like will happen, then they will not attend any motherwell games anymore. as they love their football fix, they decided they would go and see fairly regularly the first english team that connects with motherwell via train. so it looks like they have settled for york city.

 

story aside, there was a huge percentage in that spl survey that said that in the event of a new co getting in scot free then they would not be attending football matchs at all. now its still a small sample, and people blow hot air about that stuff all the time, but i think this will have some import.

 

so it seems that when rangers get back in, they have managed to in this period of fear, managed to develop a discourse akin to celtic fans of some kind of bias towards their team. so it looks like this will impact negativly upon crowds to 'diddy' teams from rangers from this point onwards. given that they will be debt free and there will be considerably less money coming into the diddy clubs (due to less of their own fans and less rangers fans coming cause of their sense of being done over by scottish football), this disparity which is already unsustainable is going to get a lot worse....

 

yes, mr scruff you mention that the disparity vis a vis the old firm and the rest has been getting worse, but i suggest you take a look at, if you havent already, at the book 'the roar of the crowd' which documents the crowd figures of the scottish senior team clubs since the early days of football. In this book, despite the dominance of the old firm being apparent pretty much always, the figures were much less starkly distrubuted vis a vis the old firm and the other bigger clubs.... it is following the murry/mcann era where we can situate the situation we are in now where the old firm vastly outnumber the rest of teh clubs put together. however, the stat that has remained constant from the heyday of scottish football is that the overall percentage of peeps going to football in scotland per capita compared to other countries has remained the same level. so although overall levels have remained the same, the distrubution has gone vastly in the old firm in unprecedeted maganitute following said mcann/murray era.

 

couple in the fact that said era also is funded in teh main by season tickets and the change of the share of the gate money it is clear we are not dealing with a mere fluction of disparity between the old firm and the rest that could be in the event of something like league restructurign be reversed.

 

this literally is the only chance for something to change, but we as fans are completely unorganised as a collective between clubs to articulate the universal interests of football fans. so really there is not going to be any concerted pressure to get the chairmen to change their stance, and as mentioned by some one else they are between a rock and a hard place, they will need to go with the status quo.

 

so to me, i cant see what hope there is in scottish football, i am part of a family who have been ptfc fans for at least 3 generations, so its deeply ingrained in our genes, the culture of being a small football team supporter.

 

but somethings gotta give - where is the line between being an honerable diddy team supporter and ones self respect???

 

Also i need to reiterate my belief that the ideal scenario for ptfc (or any diddy team) would be to leave the sfa and join the fa setup down south. there is plenty of scope to exploit, not least the fact that gretna have switched between associations and the buisness law case which is incedentally strengthened in the event of a newco. there is also far more scope for a team like thistle to do that simply down to the fact that they can control their own destiny as a buisness agent, argue their case, but anything that most people posit such as a change of league structure requires a consensus across all clubs and all stakeholders including the football asscociations, tv, and sponsorship. so really that is out of the window. english non remote football is not as remote a prospect as one might think...

Edited May 2, 2012 by mrD

[mrD]

Long ago football stopped being a sport and became a business market and the Chairmen need to carefully consider what is in the best interest of their own business.

Exactly! how good a prospect for a team like thistle would it be to be the first scottish team representing a major city in the UK in the biggest football market in the world: England, rather than this horrible parochial set up we find ourselves in. there is probably more sponsorship money in blue square premiership than in the spl, and there would be far more prospect of developing a bigger fanbase/customerbase in a market where the odds are less stacked against oneself and the fact its a bigger market

Edited May 2, 2012 by mrD

[mrD]

The whole Rangers saga apart from being particularly unedifiying and tiresome reveals the fundamental faultline in Scottish Football and some may even infer in Scottish society itself. Without wishing to attribute Manichean motives to the discussion, it is clear that we have reached a point of fundamental divergence from the status quo. If Scottish football needs the continued unreformed involvement of one club and its supporters then surely that raises some fairly existential questions of Scottish Football? In fact the entire edifice is built on a house of cards. You get the feeling that to remove such a supposedly important building block as Glasgow Rangers the whole building will come crashing down. Indeed, if the authorities in this country seek simply to apply a cosmetic renovation job without a thorough overhaul of their procedures this is exactly what will happen. Instead, the Rangers saga,, provides the powers that be with an (almost!) wholly unexpected avenue and legitimacy of pursuing change. They dare not refuse to pursue it , or Scottish football will die.

 

I would have agreed with this post a few years ago, and yes, there is still a small part of me that thinks if rangers were to go bust proper bust that is, that there could be scope for some change within scottish football that could breed a more positive competative situation.

 

but, i think we are well past the point of return. mainly because of wider social factors than just the obvious football factors. football factors first, old rivarlys have been apart for so long i doubt they could be reborn. but not just in the football sense, society has changed in terms of how people see themselves in relationship to their locality. i mean does someone from greenock think of themselves as part of a proud ship building town when the place is dead? the old rivalrys had other basises to it that has long gone, not to mention mass media and globalisation where peoples cultural influences could be anything from man utd to 50 cent. and any cursory glance outside will reveal the penetration of the scottish football market by the epl. you see more epl shirts than old firm shirts, and the fact that celtic have had a massive decline in merchadise in this last year shows that the old firms hegemonic grip over football consumers is ******.

 

we need to start thinkign like a buisness, like the way gerry mcnee said when he wanted the rangers revolution to join a european superleague. we need to join english football

[Dick Dastardly]

we need to join english football

 

But do english football need us to join ? What's in it for them ?

[Jaggernaut]

But do english football need us to join ? What's in it for them ?

 

Nothing. Far away days, and small traveling supports.

 

Oh, and a body blow to the view that Scotland is somehow a separate country. But some might look upon that as a positive. Team GB, yeahhh!!!

[Mr Scruff]

 

 

Nothing. Far away days, and small traveling supports.

 

Oh, and a body blow to the view that Scotland is somehow a separate country. But some might look upon that as a positive. Team GB, yeahhh!!!

This is exactly the point, although I for one would rather play against Scottish teams than expect 'a pot of gold' in the lower English leagues. And if Motherwell can qualify for Europe....

 

(And despite being against independence it's a 'no' to team GB for me...)

[mrD]

whats in it for england, well larger market for one thing, opening up scotland, and perhaps some interest from scottish diaspora. from thistles pov, being the first team from scotland to join it would definately attract some of the patriotic types who would like to see a scottish entity playing in a larger format but alas scotland the football team have not been able to manage. people dissafected with the scottish game could potentially rally around a team in the english league - a welcome change from the old firm saturated monotony up here.

 

but being honest, thats a lot further down the line, we do not need to offer that much to go to the lower levels of the pyramid. that only becomes a pertinant question, if and only if, we were trying to go in at a higher level of the pyramid, then wed have to justify our case, which makes one go up against vested interests so its not really going to happen. Thats why the old firm are stuck between a rock and a hard place, they know that scottish football is dead, and they need to for their long term survival go into a proper market in an increasing globalised world. the thing that ****s them is that they are too big to go down to the bottom of the pyramid, their overheads are too high, and the cost of losing support through a fanbase not accustomed to total dominance may confine them to lower league stuff for too long to make their venture sustainable. The beauty of being a team like partick thistle is that issue does not apply. we are not too big to join at the bottom of the pyramid but i guaruntee you, if we were to do so, we have real chance of growing into something bigger, given that we are in teh most populated part of scotland.

 

Growth is something that is not possible EVER in the scottish football context. Thats just been confirmed by how the rangers situation is being managed. If any reader thinks thats wrong, then tell me, what potential is there for growth for ptfc in the scottish context, and what steps do we go about to achieve such growth???

 

as to the objection towards long distance travelling, firstly, the novelty of being the only jock club in english football would attract as many people as would be turned off by the distance, secondly, people in england are accustomed to travelling long distances for football anyway, witness plymouth argyle thirdly, at the bottom level of the pyramid it would be northern regional league, i remember not that long ago blyth spartans being quite a fixture, and lastly,following that logic, we should join a regional league to avoid the likes of having to face ross county, ict, aberdeen etc. Also - it would not take much to get bigger away crowds than we are already getting!

 

The unifying feature of what is so problematic in our society, in particular with regards to football, is the basic conservative (with a small c) thinking people have regarding change in scottish football. It is that attitude that keeps us in fear of the tv deal, it is that attitude that keeps us in thinking we need a strong old firm, and it is that attitude that will ultimately be the death of clubs like partick thistle.

 

time to stop thinking like dour scots and start thinking like the scots of the scottish enlightenment era, peeps like adam smith, david hume and so on. they would shake their heads at the parochial attitudes that are in circulation in scottish society these days...

Edited May 2, 2012 by mrD

[mrD]

We sign a Barca player Im ripping up my Season Ticket - FORCA ESPANYOL

 

can you imagine what espanyol or barcalona would say if they were asked to leave la liga to join a catalan league?

[Mr Scruff]

The unifying feature of what is so problematic in our society, in particular with regards to football, is the basic conservative (with a small c) thinking people have regarding change in scottish football. It is that attitude that keeps us in fear of the tv deal, it is that attitude that keeps us in thinking we need a strong old firm, and it is that attitude that will ultimately be the death of clubs like partick thistle.

 

time to stop thinking like dour scots and start thinking like the scots of the scottish enlightenment era, peeps like adam smith, david hume and so on. they would shake their heads at the parochial attitudes that are in circulation in scottish society these days...

As I've said, I don't think emigrating to the 'bright lights' of the big leagues in England is a realistic prospect (or a long term solution for local, Scottish football). But I've got an awful lot of sympathy with what you say, particularly these last two paragraphs - I think you're spot on. I'd really like to see Scottish football get better...

[mrD]

fair enough, theres not really much i can add to the above. i realise such an attitude of leaving sfa to fa is a minority viewpoint, but i expect that further down the line it will become more mainstream.