Rangers Fc- A Nation Mourns?

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Just been told that as soon as the SPL money is paid to Rangers thats them they are done, as this has already been earmarked to pay Duff & Phelps, plus with a PAYE due this month that they wont be able to make its padlock time

I find it weird that the SPL cash isn't diverted to its member clubs that are owed money by Rangers. Perhaps legalities don't allow that but you'd think the SPL would've had their own legislation in place to cover defaulting clubs.

[Norgethistle]

I find it weird that the SPL cash isn't diverted to its member clubs that are owed money by Rangers. Perhaps legalities don't allow that but you'd think the SPL would've had their own legislation in place to cover defaulting clubs.

The Deal is between the Club and the League to get it paid to another creditor would require an injunction (IE getting your wages arrested) and as 1 club cannot take another to court....

[MerryHell]

Just been told that as soon as the SPL money is paid to Rangers thats them they are done, as this has already been earmarked to pay Duff & Phelps, plus with a PAYE due this month that they wont be able to make its padlock time

 

And when does this happen? Come on, it's f**king killing me here.

 

Can't help but feel that Paul Murray is a bit like his namesake and was just glad somebody else was willing to take on the debt and get a bit of a media profile for himself into the bargain. Interesting that for all his protests last week that he was told by the administrator that his bid met the minimum CVA expectations, his isn't one of the three bids on the table. Not walking away sounds good, but they'll all do it in the end. How nigh is it?

 

For all my rejoicing, I still can't quite believe that a club that size will be allowed to go to the wall, but at the same time I can't see who would put money in especially with so much doubt hanging over them with the tax cases, SPL uncertainty etc.

Edited May 8, 2012 by MerryHell

[Norgethistle]

And when does this happen? Come on, it's f**king killing me here.

 

Can't help but feel that Paul Murray is a bit like his namesake and was just glad somebody else was willing to take on the debt and get a bit of a media profile for himself into the bargain. Interesting that for all his protests last week that he was told by the administrator that his bid met the minimum CVA expectations, his isn't one of the three bids on the table. Not walking away sounds good, but they'll all do it in the end. How nigh is it?

 

For all my rejoicing, I still can't quite believe that a club that size will be allowed to go to the wall, but at the same time I can't see who would put money in especially with so much doubt hanging over them with the tax cases, SPL uncertainty etc.

 

Final payment is around the 14th, PAYE due 21st so between the 14th and the 21st I was told, and if the PAYE isny PAYEd HMRC will instigate a winding up order ASAP

[lady-isobel-barnett]

The Deal is between the Club and the League to get it paid to another creditor would require an injunction (IE getting your wages arrested) and as 1 club cannot take another to court....

Thought there'd be something along those lines. Point tho' is amongst the very folk that constitute the league (SPL) are the very folk owed money by rangers.

[Jaggernaut]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...all_05_05_2012/

 

Cosgrove after 35 mins is fantastic on this

 

Listening to that right now. You're right, and he's got Graham Spiers deservedly squirming.

[sigesige00]

John Yorkston just on the radio, saying that they disccussed at yesterdays meet at Hampden, that Rangers could just drop down one division along with Dunfermline.

 

Unacceptable. Rangers must be relegated to the SFL 3rd Division. And the SPL/SFL should be reorganised to a 48 teams/3 division SFL.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

John Yorkston just on the radio, saying that they disccussed at yesterdays meet at Hampden, that Rangers could just drop down one division along with Dunfermline.

I always take anything Yorkie Boy says with a pinch of salt but give him the benefit of the doubt. I was wondering what would have happened if that Doncaster chappie had got his way re the SPL1 (10 team) and SPL2 (12 team) thingy. What for instance would our Board's view/vote be on the h*ns punishment? My guess the consensus would be rangers drop down to what in effect would be Div1 and there wouldn't be too big an outcry over leniency. SKY/ESPN might have bitten the bullet for one season or at least some compromise put in place.

[Jaggernaut]

I always take anything Yorkie Boy says with a pinch of salt but give him the benefit of the doubt. I was wondering what would have happened if that Doncaster chappie had got his way re the SPL1 (10 team) and SPL2 (12 team) thingy. What for instance would our Board's view/vote be on the h*ns punishment? My guess the consensus would be rangers drop down to what in effect would be Div1 and there wouldn't be too big an outcry over leniency. SKY/ESPN might have bitten the bullet for one season or at least some compromise put in place.

 

The h u n s in Div. 1 means that there's no point in any other team even trying for promotion, as it won't happen.

 

Still, it would be worth it!

 

See the magical resurrection of "Football First" on tv, with 99% of the money going to them, 1% to all the rest.

[yoda-jag]

Decent overview of the latest shambles from the BBC's Business and Economy Editor Douglas Fraser, especially the last section "Ibroke bonus bidders" and the points and observations therein:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17999964

[Dick Dastardly]

The h u n s in Div. 1 means that there's no point in any other team even trying for promotion, as it won't happen.

 

Still, it would be worth it!

 

See the magical resurrection of "Football First" on tv, with 99% of the money going to them, 1% to all the rest.

I'm not so sure that they would walk it. How many of their current first team would hang around for first division football ? That leaves them with what ever players remain (OK, the likes of Hutton is easily good enough) but would they have a full team and what U18s could they field ? We would loose Dundee who would get their place in the SPL, so I wouldn't hand them the title before we can see what they have to offer.

 

That said, I am for the first time starting to think that they are a basket case. Who is going to plough money into a bankrupt football club that doesn't know what league they will be in, what penalties they may have to face and what squad will be left for them to take over. You would have to be as thick as a H*n supporter to put your money into that.

[Mr Bunny]

Here's something to put you off your very succulent lamb ... however the comments are worth a read.

[stillresigned]

I've stopped believing any news that emanates from Ibrox. Ever since this sorry saga began, all thats come out from the administrators is wishful thinking and half-baked ideas. In addition how many dealines that were definetlyhad to be met have there been, no day, new final dfnal deadline. Surely, even Rangers fans (well allright the one or two that are literate!), will begin to question their competence and surely the courts must begin questioning whether their primary aim i.e. ensuring the best return for creditors is really being pursued?

Edited May 10, 2012 by stillresigned

[mgow]

I've been trying to keep up to date, but I'm struggling to find much coverage of this on TV, radio, newspaper etc. ;-)

 

So apologies if these have been covered already:

- Have the details of the reasons for the SFA penalties (fines for Whyte & his club plus a transfer embargo) ever been published? If so, did the SFA cover the "dual contracts" issue or is that investigation still to conclude? That seems to me to be the biggest issue in all of this.

- On the "Big Tax Case": if this ever concludes and finds in favour of HMRC, would that liability follow any "new co" or reside / die with the existing company? If the liability does follow "new co", wouldn't "new co 2" be inevitable anyway if HMRC kicks in later during 2012/13? We would be able to kick off this whole circus again.

 

Overall, I am struggling a little to understand the furore over which league a potential "new co" would play in. Most of the concern is around ensuring that a suitable level of punishment is handed out. To me, the main offence has been committed at the point of entering Administration (financial doping in terms of having players that they couldn't afford, no longer able to pay creditors in full etc.). It is too late for this case (as it always seems to be for Scottish football), but I would much rather see stiffer penalties for entering Administration in the first place, rendering debates about liquidation / "new co" irrelevant.

[Norgethistle]

I've been trying to keep up to date, but I'm struggling to find much coverage of this on TV, radio, newspaper etc. ;-)

 

So apologies if these have been covered already:

- Have the details of the reasons for the SFA penalties (fines for Whyte & his club plus a transfer embargo) ever been published? If so, did the SFA cover the "dual contracts" issue or is that investigation still to conclude? That seems to me to be the biggest issue in all of this.

- On the "Big Tax Case": if this ever concludes and finds in favour of HMRC, would that liability follow any "new co" or reside / die with the existing company? If the liability does follow "new co", wouldn't "new co 2" be inevitable anyway if HMRC kicks in later during 2012/13? We would be able to kick off this whole circus again.

 

Overall, I am struggling a little to understand the furore over which league a potential "new co" would play in. Most of the concern is around ensuring that a suitable level of punishment is handed out. To me, the main offence has been committed at the point of entering Administration (financial doping in terms of having players that they couldn't afford, no longer able to pay creditors in full etc.). It is too late for this case (as it always seems to be for Scottish football), but I would much rather see stiffer penalties for entering Administration in the first place, rendering debates about liquidation / "new co" irrelevant.

 

The clubs finished, any CVA or Newco bans them from competing in Europe for 3 years, Rangers need that revenue to keep going as the orc's will desert if they dont get their 2 games in Europe each season, add to that no real senior players next year, oh and for someone to buy them they really would need to put in around £60,000,000 straight away (£10 Mill small tax + £20 Mill for Stadium that Whyte's dads company owns + £6 Mill back pay to players + £5 Mill Duff & Phelps + £5 Mill PAYE Due this month + Running costs for next year + Creditors) This is before the big tax case and the 2 contract ruling (Which they will be found guilty of, as ex players have admitted to this to keep themselves right)

[Dick Dastardly]

I've been trying to keep up to date, but I'm struggling to find much coverage of this on TV, radio, newspaper etc. ;-)

 

So apologies if these have been covered already:

- Have the details of the reasons for the SFA penalties (fines for Whyte & his club plus a transfer embargo) ever been published? If so, did the SFA cover the "dual contracts" issue or is that investigation still to conclude? That seems to me to be the biggest issue in all of this.

- On the "Big Tax Case": if this ever concludes and finds in favour of HMRC, would that liability follow any "new co" or reside / die with the existing company? If the liability does follow "new co", wouldn't "new co 2" be inevitable anyway if HMRC kicks in later during 2012/13? We would be able to kick off this whole circus again.

 

Overall, I am struggling a little to understand the furore over which league a potential "new co" would play in. Most of the concern is around ensuring that a suitable level of punishment is handed out. To me, the main offence has been committed at the point of entering Administration (financial doping in terms of having players that they couldn't afford, no longer able to pay creditors in full etc.). It is too late for this case (as it always seems to be for Scottish football), but I would much rather see stiffer penalties for entering Administration in the first place, rendering debates about liquidation / "new co" irrelevant.

 

In answer to the first part - Not that I have seen. The only statement that I have seen is "bringing the game into disrepute". What it certainly isn't is related to the dual contracts investigaion which has not released it's findings. I don't think that the reasoning behind the punishments handed out will be published until after the appeal and any further appeals.

 

The liability for the EBT would land with the current Rangers FC and would have no impact on the Newco. It would just be added to the creditors that need to agree a CVA, however HMRC would hold all the power to agree and force liquidation. It may be a moot point, but liquidation would meen that Newco could not return to Rangers FC and then be able to claim all their honours. They would remain Newco forever.

 

So, there is still

a sporting punishment to outstanding for the dual contracts (assuming guilty)

a punishment for transfering assets to a newco (which will apply to all SPL clubs)

the result of the EBT case

[Dick Dastardly]

The clubs finished, any CVA or Newco bans them from competing in Europe for 3 years, Rangers need that revenue to keep going as the orc's will desert if they dont get their 2 games in Europe each season, add to that no real senior players next year, oh and for someone to buy them they really would need to put in around £60,000,000 straight away (£10 Mill small tax + £20 Mill for Stadium that Whyte's dads company owns + £6 Mill back pay to players + £5 Mill Duff & Phelps + £5 Mill PAYE Due this month + Running costs for next year + Creditors) This is before the big tax case and the 2 contract ruling (Which they will be found guilty of, as ex players have admitted to this to keep themselves right)

 

You can add that it has not been decided who owns the season ticket income for the next 2 seasons !

[Norgethistle]

You can add that it has not been decided who owns the season ticket income for the next 2 seasons !

 

Unless they were to cull all the team, back room staff, and admin and play with kids, and much reduced support staff, plus have a full house of pay at the gate punters, there outgoings will greatly exceed their income. Now with a boys club playing and maybe even getting pumped every 2nd week in division 3 i really can't see 45,000 glory hunters turning up for their derby pumping against Clyde, can you?

[twinny]

I've been trying to keep up to date, but I'm struggling to find much coverage of this on TV, radio, newspaper etc. ;-)

 

So apologies if these have been covered already:

- Have the details of the reasons for the SFA penalties (fines for Whyte & his club plus a transfer embargo) ever been published? If so, did the SFA cover the "dual contracts" issue or is that investigation still to conclude? That seems to me to be the biggest issue in all of this.

- On the "Big Tax Case": if this ever concludes and finds in favour of HMRC, would that liability follow any "new co" or reside / die with the existing company? If the liability does follow "new co", wouldn't "new co 2" be inevitable anyway if HMRC kicks in later during 2012/13? We would be able to kick off this whole circus again.

 

Overall, I am struggling a little to understand the furore over which league a potential "new co" would play in. Most of the concern is around ensuring that a suitable level of punishment is handed out. To me, the main offence has been committed at the point of entering Administration (financial doping in terms of having players that they couldn't afford, no longer able to pay creditors in full etc.). It is too late for this case (as it always seems to be for Scottish football), but I would much rather see stiffer penalties for entering Administration in the first place, rendering debates about liquidation / "new co" irrelevant.

 

Whilst 'Bringing the game into disrepute' has already been mentioned, I'm sure that withholding contractual payments to other SFA clubs was a large reason behind the transfer embargo. I'm sure the information will be out there, I'm going to have a look myself. It might be best to start with the Alex Thomson blog.

 

 

The clubs finished, any CVA or Newco bans them from competing in Europe for 3 years, Rangers need that revenue to keep going as the orc's will desert if they dont get their 2 games in Europe each season, add to that no real senior players next year, oh and for someone to buy them they really would need to put in around £60,000,000 straight away (£10 Mill small tax + £20 Mill for Stadium that Whyte's dads company owns + £6 Mill back pay to players + £5 Mill Duff & Phelps + £5 Mill PAYE Due this month + Running costs for next year + Creditors) This is before the big tax case and the 2 contract ruling (Which they will be found guilty of, as ex players have admitted to this to keep themselves right)

 

I don't think UEFA have brought the CVA=3 year ban rule yet, but should the appeal panel uphold the punishment meted out by the previous panel, Rangers won't be qualifying for Europe for a while anyway.

[Dick Dastardly]

And another bid gets added to the waste paper bin at Duff & Phelps

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18028910

[Mr Bunny]

And another bid gets added to the waste paper bin at Duff & Phelps

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/18028910

 

I don't know why the media are afraid to say it, Duff & Phelps are just deliberately dragging this out as long as they can until the money runs out. Of course then they wouldn't have any stories to keep the hunnish hordes getting excited then would they?

[twinny]

Whilst 'Bringing the game into disrepute' has already been mentioned, I'm sure that withholding contractual payments to other SFA clubs was a large reason behind the transfer embargo. I'm sure the information will be out there, I'm going to have a look myself. It might be best to start with the Alex Thomson blog.

 

To reply to myself, the SFA disseminated the Disciplinary Proceedings Outcome at the time, explaining in detail the rules breached and the punishments meted for each breach respectively. It does not specify how Rangers brought the game into disrepute, but I imagine a combination of all the other rule breaches can be considered a serious breach of rule 66. It seems the punishment for the breach of rule 325 (non-payment of money to Dundee Utd and the SFA) hasn't been explicitly explained.

[mgow]

To reply to myself, the SFA disseminated the Disciplinary Proceedings Outcome at the time, explaining in detail the rules breached and the punishments meted for each breach respectively. It does not specify how Rangers brought the game into disrepute, but I imagine a combination of all the other rule breaches can be considered a serious breach of rule 66. It seems the punishment for the breach of rule 325 (non-payment of money to Dundee Utd and the SFA) hasn't been explicitly explained.

 

Thanks twinny. I notice that the SFA link says "Notes for Editors: The Judicial Panel Tribunal shall issue a note of reasons in early course". I guess that detail is being withheld until after the appeal.

[Pie Of The Month]

If anyone has the time to read 60+ pages here is the full SFA findings at the tribunal including how exactly they believe Rangers brought the game into disrepute.

 

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93212354/SFA-Rangers-Note-of-Reasons

[Southside Jag]

I've stopped believing any news that emanates from Ibrox. Ever since this sorry saga began, all thats come out from the administrators is wishful thinking and half-baked ideas. In addition how many dealines that were definetlyhad to be met have there been, no day, new final dfnal deadline. Surely, even Rangers fans (well allright the one or two that are literate!), will begin to question their competence and surely the courts must begin questioning whether their primary aim i.e. ensuring the best return for creditors is really being pursued?

 

Has there ever been a club in administration where the aim is to get a return for the creditors? It seems to me that the administrators just run up a huge bill and then leave when it is paid.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Southside Jag