What Would Make You Consider A Yes Vote For Newco

[Jordanhill Jag]

There are strongly held views on the current proposals ,most of them discuss the concept of Sporting Integrity so in order to hopefully open up the debate, its maybe worth looking at what we would like to see for our Club and Scottish Football going forward.

 

Now much has been said about the concept of "Sporting Integrity" which is all very Corinthian however I have argued long before Newco that Im uncomfortable as a Thistle Fan standing in judgement - its a simple fact that during save the Jags we had a CVA -from memory we paid our Creditors 40 p in the £ ( we had to pay our Football debts 100% thats the SFA rules).

 

Over the next few years we ran up a bill with HMRC of circa £230K - we then hit a cashflow crisis which was only solved when the current Directors stepped in.

 

On two occasions in our recent History we have faced the possibility of adminstration - Companies have funded the excess of PTFC decisions - not the Directors who took the decisions - external Companies - many of them small businesses .

 

Rangers and PTFC are different for one single reason ,our Creditors agreed a CVA theirs did not- thats it ,the difference in Sporting Integrity is approx 32 p in the £ in a CVA offer.

 

Most people think Newco should enter Div 3 ,fair enough -but reality is we are discussing what level not if they should enter - Div 3 or Div 1 it makes no difference to PTFC - they enter Div 3 they walk the leagues back in SPL in three Seasons - being honest who cares.

 

I have in various guises been responsible for putting bums on seats ,it gets harder by the year - simple reason ,nothing to play for - last Season four Clubs chasing second spot - no one cared ,flip that to a play off it becomes a completley different Season.

 

So in short I dont accept that we have the moral upper ground ,I dont care one single jot where SEVCO play - I have not spoken to one single Rangers Fan who thinks they should play in Div 1 -nor do I care about increasing "Jackies Budget" I do however care about the long term future of PTFC - currently 50% of our Season Ticket holders are over 50 ( 25% over 65) Kids go Free has failed ,we are not a Family Club ,nor are we a Community Club - we are a Club slowly dying.

 

If we want a Club we can be proud of not the irrelevance we have become we need to look at our future ,we cannot survive in the long term ,sure there will be a team called PTFC but a part time group of boys - not a viable Club with ambition.

 

So if Fans demand we vote no due to "Sporting Integrity" then please remember we have 32 p in the £ greater integrity than Rangers - we dont get play offs we will be irrelevant in five years anyway.

 

For the record these are not the views of onethistle nor the Club ,I currently do not know the Club views on Newco - they are the views of someone who is tired of our Club tearing itself apart ,first we had the Old Gaurd we get our finances under control - now we have Newco - big Newsflash I have three kids - none of them go to see PTFC ,in five years time 25% of our support will struggle to walk up South Drive as they will be over 70 and no one is replacing them.We couldnt get 2000 Jags Fans in the JHS for the whole of last Season.

 

So lets have your views ,what would be the minimium you would expect to let Newco into Div 1 - if its no chance fair enough.

 

Jim Alexander

[johnnylambieslovechild]

How about we get all the changes Scottish football needs in return for allowing newco in division 3

[Jordanhill Jag]

How about we get all the changes Scottish football needs in return for allowing newco in division 3

 

SPL need Rangers back in a Season to keep Sky Deal - so Sky are calling the shots not SFA /SFL /SPL - SFA sense they have SPL by the balls and are using this to force change of the game in Scotland.

[Steven H]

Jim it's not about the sporting integrity of a team who couldn't agree a CVA, it's about a whole new team being rocketed into SFL1 when the only option is to apply for the vacancy in SFL3. If it were ANY OTHER CLUB outwith the Old Firm it would be game over already and that club would already be preparing for life in SFL3 (at best). So there is absolutely nothing that will make me want Thistle to vote in any other way than to say NO to Newco in any other league other than SFL3.

[Jordanhill Jag]

Jim it's not about the sporting integrity of a team who couldn't agree a CVA, it's about a whole new team being rocketed into SFL1 when the only option is to apply for the vacancy in SFL3. If it were ANY OTHER CLUB outwith the Old Firm it would be game over already and that club would already be preparing for life in SFL3 (at best). So there is absolutely nothing that will make me want Thistle to vote in any other way than to say NO to Newco in any other league other than SFL3.

 

Steven - I agree but if we dont get play offs its over in five years the declining and age-ing fanbase will decide that not our Board or Newco so in a War you have to make tough and often immoral decisions,in my opinion we are looking at our future survival - we cannot look short term

[RodMcDonaldJag]

Am I the only one that doesnt fancy the Playoffs at all? We should have a straight 2 up and 2 down rule. If there is still a desire for a playoff game, let 3rd play 3rd bottom over two legs. Why is 2 up / 2 down not the absolute minimum that is being demanded / discussed?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Gonzaga

[Junior]

If it was any other club they would be dead by now. The Sky TV deal should never have been negotiated to have any kind of guaranteed OF game clause in it. Thats just shitty business practice, what wouldve happened if Zombie Rangers had magically survived but got relegated ?

 

The game in Scotland is nearly dead due to 2 large clubs dominating the game and taking 90% of the cash out of it. This has been made worse by the creation of th SPL where it is set up to ensure they get all the cash that comes into the game.

 

We have to find a way to share the income out but we need to retain our principles. I dont buy the they are only different coz they never got a CVA line , they cheated the game for 10+ years via illegal use of EBTs allowing them to buy players they would otherwise be unable to afford - could be argued that they cost Thistle a Scottish Cup final place. The scenarios of both clubs financial issues are so far apart as to be not fit to compare IMO.

 

If we were being forced by the SFA to allow them into SFL1 then

 

- 16 team SPL from 2013/14

- 2nd tier of 16 teams as well

- Regionalisation below this

- Fairer dispersion of central income to all clubs , including any lower leagues

- Dongcaster gets kicked out on his arse for being a completely useless administrator

- Central funding from SFA to cover all clubs youth setups

 

The current proposal does nothing to address any long term concerns that fans have for the game, all it does is guarantee fans are pissed off due to the lack of punishment towards Zombie Rangers for a decade long abuse of the system.

[scotty]

 

Rangers and PTFC are different for one single reason ,our Creditors agreed a CVA theirs did not- thats it ,the difference in Sporting Integrity is approx 32 p in the £ in a CVA offer.

 

No, the difference is we offered a CVA that the creditors could agree to. Not one which would give them nothing.

 

So if Fans demand we vote no due to "Sporting Integrity" then please remember we have 32 p in the £ greater integrity than Rangers - we dont get play offs we will be irrelevant in five years anyway.

 

Sporting integrity is not about what newco, or even the ex-rangers do or did. Its about NOT changing rules to suit one team or selling out Scottish football for short-term financial gain.

 

 

So lets have your views ,what would be the minimium you would expect to let Newco into Div 1 - if its no chance fair enough.

 

Winning divisions three and two would about do it.

 

Jim Alexander

[Trotter]

How about we get all the changes Scottish football needs in return for allowing newco in division 3

 

This.

[Fellow Traveller]

In a word, Jim, nothing. We're not unaware of the financial realities facing the club and the whole game. We've all known it for years and flapped around trying to improve things, with no help at all from the football authorities who had produced a rotten sport in Scotland even before Rangers made it ten times worse. So they should fix it now, just like they could and should have tried to fix it years ago. Bundling it all up in a package deal to save newco is bullshit of the highest order and nobody's buying it. It's an insult to the intelligence. Nice marketing tactic, let's see how that works out.

 

The vote will happen and whatever way it goes, the fans will make or break the club. For me, I'll either make a greater effort to get along to games this season or I'll kiss goodye to this farce forever. I know many others will dig in and help keep things afloat and the very best of luck to them. But don't let the club try to sell us this garbage and expect people to shrug and carry on like nothing will have changed because everything will have changed.

 

And for all our many failings over the years, I don't think there's a club in Scotland that doesn't have the moral high ground over Rangers. That being said, I wouldn't give an ounce of support, moral or financial, to a board behaving the way ours is behaving at the moment.

[simoncordiner]

The panacea deal is the radical reform of Scottish football in exchange for Rangers to be given a place in Div 3.

 

However I conceded if that is unachievable then we need to consider the carrot of Rangers in a higher devision.

 

 

The fundamental thing is I believe PTFC need to stay at the negotiating table. They should not come out and say new to SEVCO now because they don't know what they are saying no to. I want to be proud of PTFC being a key player in negotiating the radical change of Scottish Football.

[Mr Bunny]

A badly run club (as we've often been) is not the same as a corrupt and crooked club.

 

 

BTW I've been looking for a mention of Green's newco submitting required paperwork to the SFA for registration. Some media outlets made a point of today being the deadline so I thought they would have announced if it had actually happened.

 

Though I assume it has (or at least something has been submitted and needs to be checked out) otherwise we would have heard by now, after all that would have been a story worth mentioning. Still you'd have thought.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Mr Bunny

[Lindau]

Sorry Jim but our CVA was like me dropping 2p in the street in comparison to the corruption and cheating that has gone on over in the Southside. I am not going over old ground here. Five of us go to Firhill every home game, pay the full rate, buy stuff at the shops, buy 2 programmes, have a bite to eat and occassionally have a drink in the club. I reckon in a season we (me. my 2 boys and my 2 mates) pay well over £2000 into the club, well I am sorry but if Scottish football is as corrupt as has been shown over this senario, with bully boy tactics from the powers above the final straw for many of us, its the end for the 5 of us if that lot get pushed into the 2nd tier. There is no ifs and buts for the 5 of us....it will be over and believe me it is hurting the 5 of us immensely as we all love the Firhill social experience, but we have decided not to hand over our hard earned cash to a competition that is more rigged than the WWE. If the abomination end up 8th in the SFL next season, if they get voted in, every one knows what will happen....play offs for the top 8...its rigged, its a joke, its a cracked record its a busted flush!!

Edited June 29, 2012 by Lindau

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Sorry Jim, there's nothing that I'd accept. You know as well as anyone what PTFC is about and more importantly what it's not about. .

[GrantB]

Nothing. I've followed Thistle from birth, went week in week out since 1986. Let me make it perfectly clear, if we side with NewCo, it's over. I will never set foot in Firhill ever again (as much as it will break my heart).

 

Thistle's crimes in the past were firstly to comply with the Taylor report and latterly down to poor fiscal management. At no time have we ever employed EBT's or given 2 contracts to players in a clear breach of rules.

 

When we had tax arrears, we sold players. Rangers could have sold players in Jan and paid all of their tax liabilities that forced them into liquidation but chose not to. There is a world of difference between what has happened to us and what the club we used to know as Rangers have got up to.

 

If we allow ourselves to be bullied into this, football in this country is dead and clubs such as ourselves may never recover.

[JeanieD]

A 50 point penalty if they get directly into Div. 1 - banned from all domestic cups for 5 years - point penalty in subsequent years to reduce by 10 point per year;

A 30 point penalty if they get directly into Div. 2 - banned from all domestic cups for 3 years - point penalty in subsequent years to reduce by 10 point per year;;

A 20 point penalty if they get put in Div. 3 - banned from all domestic cups for 2 years.

 

That would do me

[Mr Bunny]

Am I the only one that doesnt fancy the Playoffs at all? We should have a straight 2 up and 2 down rule. If there is still a desire for a playoff game, let 3rd play 3rd bottom over two legs. Why is 2 up / 2 down not the absolute minimum that is being demanded / discussed?

 

I'm for the play off but your version of it would suit just as well. Mind you it would be near impossible to get the SPL clubs to accept it.

[Fawlty Towers]

Steven - I agree but if we dont get play offs its over in five years the declining and age-ing fanbase will decide that not our Board or Newco so in a War you have to make tough and often immoral decisions,in my opinion we are looking at our future survival - we cannot look short term

 

Maybe some sort of marketing & communication group involving successful people who care about PTFC could help with that

[GrantB]

To add to that, they sold Jelavic and kept the money. They still owe Rapid Vienna £1M for him, they owe about the same for Lee Wallace along with a load of other football debts.

[sandy]

Jim, tbh pretty much nothing.

 

Perhaps some humility (acceptance of year out before SFL3 application), acceptance of loss of titles/cups and renouncement of all bigotry might make me slightly less forgiving of newco

 

But NOT parachuted into SFL1

[Lindau]

To add to that, they sold Jelavic and kept the money. They still owe Rapid Vienna £1M for him, they owe about the same for Lee Wallace along with a load of other football debts.

 

and did they not try to add Cousin to their wage bill the week before administration on a £12000 a week wage. Their cheating and corruption knows no bounds. Sorry Jim but to compare our troubles to this lots is frankly an embarrassment

[Dick Dastardly]

If it was any other club they would be dead by now. The Sky TV deal should never have been negotiated to have any kind of guaranteed OF game clause in it. Thats just shitty business practice, what wouldve happened if Zombie Rangers had magically survived but got relegated ?

 

The game in Scotland is nearly dead due to 2 large clubs dominating the game and taking 90% of the cash out of it. This has been made worse by the creation of th SPL where it is set up to ensure they get all the cash that comes into the game.

 

We have to find a way to share the income out but we need to retain our principles. I dont buy the they are only different coz they never got a CVA line , they cheated the game for 10+ years via illegal use of EBTs allowing them to buy players they would otherwise be unable to afford - could be argued that they cost Thistle a Scottish Cup final place. The scenarios of both clubs financial issues are so far apart as to be not fit to compare IMO.

 

If we were being forced by the SFA to allow them into SFL1 then

 

- 16 team SPL from 2013/14

- 2nd tier of 16 teams as well

- Regionalisation below this

- Fairer dispersion of central income to all clubs , including any lower leagues

- Dongcaster gets kicked out on his arse for being a completely useless administrator

- Central funding from SFA to cover all clubs youth setups

 

The current proposal does nothing to address any long term concerns that fans have for the game, all it does is guarantee fans are pissed off due to the lack of punishment towards Zombie Rangers for a decade long abuse of the system.

 

On Wednesday, I would have probably accepted something close to this (personaly I like the idea of the top 4/6 playing off at the end of the season for some sort of superleague to become champions and some sort of relegation playoff in there too), but as of "That Document" - No Deal. The authorities had their chance and blew it. The governing bodies (not The club formally known as Rangers) nead to be taught a lesson that you cant treat your customers in this way.

[sandy]

In fact, I think they need to wipe their slate clean and make a case for SFL3 admission alongside Spartans etc

Edited June 29, 2012 by sandy

[Chris near Oxford]

If you throw away sporting integrity you will kill the club. Our place will be simply a bunch a patsies to be gone over regularly to keep the fans of the Old Firm happy with regular 3-0 and 5-0 thrashings. We might as well be playing against the Harlem Globetrotters. We'd like to pretend that one day we'll get promoted, qualify for Europe and win the league -just the once you know. But no, our place is to be the Christians in the Colosseum of the Old Firm.

 

I don't understand why helping our biggest competitor to regain a dominant position is in our interest long term interest. In the long term it would be very much in our interest to break-up the Old Firm rather offering business as usual as soon as possible.

 

So not only is this proposal just burning up the rule book, it is not even clearly in our short-term financial interest.

 

We also have to look at how these rules got in place in the first place. By the old firm duopoly threatening everyone else from a position of strength!!! For how many years would these new rules last before we were threatened or bribed into changing back to 11-1 voting structures, 1-up/1-down with no play-offs, etc.

 

The new proposal offers a few short term gifts in order to restore the power to the 2 powerful clubs. Why else do you think we are being offered it? It is certainly not in a spirit of contrition.

 

So, nothing, repeat nothing, will justify giving Rangers a privileged position.

[MMCF]

Jim, there are two parts to this as I see it. Firstly The Team Formerly Known As Rangers (TTFKAR) have created problems on a much larger scale than the Save the Jags situation. Indeed, I don't believe that the two situations are comparable. Where their new incarnation ends up well frankly I could not give a hoot. As I have said in another place, however, what is deeply worrying is that the real agenda in all this, and the real problem that has to be addressed, is that the intention is to have a return to Normality as soon as possible, ie. Rangers in the SPL competing for Championships, being involved in Europe and, most of all, putting one over their ugly Green Cousins.

 

And that is where the real problem lies.

 

After "Normal" service has been resumed nothing will have changed. Nothing. It will be the same set up. The same failed model waiting to fail again. Yes, there may be a little tinkering around the edges, Play-offs, some regionalisation of lower leagues, a wee bit extra money falling from the rich man's table. But nothing will have changed. Scottish football will still be about which one of the Ugly Cousins wins the league/ gets into Europe blah-blah-blah !

 

For years I have talked about changing to a NFL type set-up where there are six/eight divisions each with four teams, set up on a regional basis (to encourage a degree of healthy rivalry) with balanced schedules (so that its not just canon odder games for the so-called big units) and inter-divisional games (so that you can still have a hate fest between Aberdeen and .... well everyone else). You would then have play-offs (real ones!) at the end of the season to decide who wins the overall championship - The Hawfandhawf Bowl

 

At very least you would have six/eight divisional titles to play for. You might even have, for example, Celtic with (12 wins) on the final day of the regular season away to Hearts and Thistle (in the same division, also on 12 wins) at home to Clyde. Betcha that would put more than 2000 bums on seats in the JHS.

 

But there is your problem. That situation, where a member of the OF might fail to win through to the play-offs, is unacceptable. Yes, they will say it's "too American" when actually what they really mean is it's too risky. In Scottish Football they do not want the excitement of "Anything can happen on any given Sunday". They want Saturday Afternoon predictability. They want Normal. And that's why the game is in decline, not just at Thistle, but all over the country. And unless we have Real Radical Solutions then quite soon we will be left with the perfect Scottish Football Season.

 

Celtic Vs TTFKAR (x38) all broadcast live on SKY.

 

So this is not about TTFKAR. This has to be about real change because those who fail to evolve will find themselves up the same cul-de-sac as the Neanderthals and the dodos.