League Cup 2022-23

[Dick Dastardly]

1 hour ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Having said that, if it was named ‘The Premier League -Just Four-Trophy’ you wouldn’t be far off ! 
For at the stage when most Premier League clubs actually join the competition they ONLY have to overcome FOUR rounds of competition, before the winner gets their hands on the gleaming silverware. (Contrast that with the year Thistle won it, when they played precisely THREE  times that number of games (12)! (This modern day paltry number of competitive rounds for most top tier teams to win a national trophy could well be a record! Wonder if it is in European/World football.…‘Guinness Book Of Records anyone’?) NB: It also surely (even, ever so  ‘slightly’) takes the gloss off those teams who like to bask in the wondrous achievement of winning… the glorious ‘Treble’! We know who you are! Who can miss you?) 

It depends on what you call "a national trophy". Many nations have  preseason trophy played between the league and cup winners (eg English Community Shield or whatever it is called this season). Arguably that would be a national trophy won by winning one game.

Also, Scilly Isles have a national football league with just 2 teams. They play each other many times for the league, but again the cup is over just 1 game. Would that be a national trophy ? Are Scilly Isles any different from Scotland/N. Ireland/ Wales/England when it comes to "national trophy"

[elevenone]

Just reading back on prize money.  So a win on Sat guarantees us a minimum of 50k as well as the 17k for tv game vs Killie.  A real incentive to be topping the group after Montrose game.

[laukat]

1 hour ago, elevenone said:

Just reading back on prize money.  So a win on Sat guarantees us a minimum of 50k as well as the 17k for tv game vs Killie.  A real incentive to be topping the group after Montrose game.

I was wondering if that's part of the reason why we are holding off signing another striker. An extra £50k would  make a huge difference in who we could attract.

Might even be enough to bring in another player if we got a draw that meant more tv money and/or a sizeable attendance

[jags on tour]

Earlier in the competition Elgin (I think) fielded an ineligible player vs Ayr and Ayr were awarded a 3-0 afterwards, now Hibs have apparently fielded an ineligible player vs Morton last night, I wonder if they will do the same and award Morton a 3-0 win. 

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

3 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

It depends on what you call "a national trophy". Many nations have  preseason trophy played between the league and cup winners (eg English Community Shield or whatever it is called this season). Arguably that would be a national trophy won by winning one game.

Also, Scilly Isles have a national football league with just 2 teams. They play each other many times for the league, but again the cup is over just 1 game. Would that be a national trophy ? Are Scilly Isles any different from Scotland/N. Ireland/ Wales/England when it comes to "national trophy"

Three points:

1) The Community Shield (Formerly ‘Charity Shield’) was always a showpiece game at Wembley between two champions in English football competition (Top tier league/FA cup. It’s primary purpose is to raise the profile of English football again, the top level, after the summer break, and whet the appetite before League (top tier) action gets underway seven days later. Winning it is not greatly ‘celebrated’ (beyond those in the stadium) and few teams or their fans would want to make a fuss  over winning it! (Or losing it for that matter!)

2) Some parts of the world may have only a few teams, but whether THEY call it a league or not, it can’t be seen in the same way as the multi-member format which is most prevalent, in most countries of the world. 

3) My main point was to criticise what I see as a basic unfairness, ie Scottish Premier League teams gaining an advantage by not having to play lower league teams from the start, having fewer games to play (fewer banana skins to slip on and lose/get knocked out.) I don’t care for seeding (in club football) and giving teams a ‘bye’ into the next round. At one time Scottish League Cup sections had all the teams from the top tier. The (‘Not All  Are Actually..’) Champions League does a lot of this, mainly to placate European top teams (who would love to break away and form an elite European Super League.) These clubs want to be in the competition as long as possible ( for the spondulux it brings in prize money) and so does UEFA, for TV money purposes! I mentioned Thistle playing 12 games to win the 1971/72 League Cup. Last year’s was won  by playing and winning just four games! Further evidence: How neutrals loved seeing Rangers beaten by Berwick in the 1967 Scottish Cup and Thistle beating Celtic in the 1971 Scottish League Cup. These two games stand out amongst possibly 100s or 1000s of other cup games in Scottish cup competition history.

NB: Interestingly in season 1966/67, when Celtic won the European Cup, participant teams were unseeded. The following season, 1967/68 Celtic went out of the cup in the first round to Dynamo Kiev! No seeding and the holders out in the first round-not what UEFA would have wanted, but it was part of the competition. And oddly, or (IMO) not oddly at all, most fans (apart from those who support the ‘giants’) actually prefer to see major upsets and giant-killing. It’s often what makes football the exciting, thrilling game it can be, rather than being boringly-predictable. But, of course ‘boringly-predictable’ often suits, the ‘Suits’ at the SFA, the FA, UEFA and FIFA etc! And, I have to say, these days, ‘boringly-predictable’ too often passes for ‘normal football product’ these days!

Edited July 21, 2022 by denismcquadeno.eleven

[elevenone]

35 minutes ago, jags on tour said:

Earlier in the competition Elgin (I think) fielded an ineligible player vs Ayr and Ayr were awarded a 3-0 afterwards, now Hibs have apparently fielded an ineligible player vs Morton last night, I wonder if they will do the same and award Morton a 3-0 win. 

Stranraer also charged for same from their game on Tuesday night although with 1 point from their 4 matches I doubt it will make much difference.

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

4 hours ago, dpj said:

If I remember rightly it was actually one reporter that was banned because he publicly said, after a fine by UEFA for sectarian singing, that Rangers were not actually serious about banning certain songs and one director had said 'The Billy Boys' was one of his favourite songs. The BBC then stopped sending any reporters to Ibrox as a protest.

No doubt they have now come to an agreement as the reporter concerned no longer works for the BBC or something similar.

UPDATE : Here is a watered down version of original story not actually mentioning what he said: 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bbc-refuse-send-staff-ibrox-6179565

 Yes, but didn’t Rangers also wish to ‘punish’ the Beeb? 

Edited July 21, 2022 by denismcquadeno.eleven

[CotterJag]

Time to renew the Season Ticket on Saturday.

This could be our year and might need a ST to secure a Cup Final ticket.

[Duke Gekantawa]

On 7/21/2022 at 1:48 PM, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Three points:

1) The Community Shield (Formerly ‘Charity Shield’) was always a showpiece game at Wembley between two champions in English football competition (Top tier league/FA cup. It’s primary purpose is to raise the profile of English football again, the top level, after the summer break, and whet the appetite before League (top tier) action gets underway seven days later. Winning it is not greatly ‘celebrated’ (beyond those in the stadium) and few teams or their fans would want to make a fuss  over winning it! (Or losing it for that matter!)

2) Some parts of the world may have only a few teams, but whether THEY call it a league or not, it can’t be seen in the same way as the multi-member format which is most prevalent, in most countries of the world. 

3) My main point was to criticise what I see as a basic unfairness, ie Scottish Premier League teams gaining an advantage by not having to play lower league teams from the start, having fewer games to play (fewer banana skins to slip on and lose/get knocked out.) I don’t care for seeding (in club football) and giving teams a ‘bye’ into the next round. At one time Scottish League Cup sections had all the teams from the top tier. The (‘Not All  Are Actually..’) Champions League does a lot of this, mainly to placate European top teams (who would love to break away and form an elite European Super League.) These clubs want to be in the competition as long as possible ( for the spondulux it brings in prize money) and so does UEFA, for TV money purposes! I mentioned Thistle playing 12 games to win the 1971/72 League Cup. Last year’s was won  by playing and winning just four games! Further evidence: How neutrals loved seeing Rangers beaten by Berwick in the 1967 Scottish Cup and Thistle beating Celtic in the 1971 Scottish League Cup. These two games stand out amongst possibly 100s or 1000s of other cup games in Scottish cup competition history.

NB: Interestingly in season 1966/67, when Celtic won the European Cup, participant teams were unseeded. The following season, 1967/68 Celtic went out of the cup in the first round to Dynamo Kiev! No seeding and the holders out in the first round-not what UEFA would have wanted, but it was part of the competition. And oddly, or (IMO) not oddly at all, most fans (apart from those who support the ‘giants’) actually prefer to see major upsets and giant-killing. It’s often what makes football the exciting, thrilling game it can be, rather than being boringly-predictable. But, of course ‘boringly-predictable’ often suits, the ‘Suits’ at the SFA, the FA, UEFA and FIFA etc! And, I have to say, these days, ‘boringly-predictable’ too often passes for ‘normal football product’ these days!

For as long as I remember, the Scottish cup and English FA cup has always introduced the top teams at a later round, so it’s hardly new

[fifexile]

There is also a bit of incentive for those clubs that qualify for Europe in that they are spared the group stages of the League Cup. Although Motherwell may disagree after last night's result!

[Jaggernaut]

On 7/21/2022 at 10:55 AM, Dick Dastardly said:

It depends on what you call "a national trophy". Many nations have  preseason trophy played between the league and cup winners (eg English Community Shield or whatever it is called this season). Arguably that would be a national trophy won by winning one game.

Also, Scilly Isles have a national football league with just 2 teams. They play each other many times for the league, but again the cup is over just 1 game. Would that be a national trophy ? Are Scilly Isles any different from Scotland/N. Ireland/ Wales/England when it comes to "national trophy"

Without going into  details, your post has encapsulated why I've never really given a hoot about the Challenge Cup (although I was at the final, whenever it was.) It's a "sub-competition."

[Lenziejag]

2 hours ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

For as long as I remember, the Scottish cup and English FA cup has always introduced the top teams at a later round, so it’s hardly new

It may not be new, although it is recent in terms of the length of time the competitions have been going. But not all changes are for the better of all concerned. 

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

2 hours ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

For as long as I remember, the Scottish cup and English FA cup has always introduced the top teams at a later round, so it’s hardly new

Yes, there are many FA cup rounds starting in August with non-league clubs competing during the previous year (in the same season) before English higher league sides join in the third round, and Scottish better  league sides also join from the third round. But, not that many years ago Scottish top tier sides played in the original league cup sections as they were called or groups-as where Thistle are playing at the moment. Now the best placed Scottish Premier League sides join the League Cup competition when there are only four rounds left to play incl. final. This is to supposedly help Scottish teams in Europe. But, ironically teams like Dunfermline, Aberdeen, Dundee United, Dundee, Hibernian, Hearts, St Johnstone did BETTER in Europe-a few substantially better, when they didn’t get this advantage, many years ago!

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

1 hour ago, fifexile said:

There is also a bit of incentive for those clubs that qualify for Europe in that they are spared the group stages of the League Cup. Although Motherwell may disagree after last night's result!

To be honest, after some of the embarrassments of recent years-St Johnstone excluded-I wonder why some of those Scottish teams covet European involvement!

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Yes, there are many FA cup rounds starting in August with non-league clubs competing during the previous year (in the same season) before English higher league sides join in the third round, and Scottish better  league sides also join from the third round. But, not that many years ago Scottish top tier sides played in the original league cup sections as they were called or groups-as where Thistle are playing at the moment. Now the best placed Scottish Premier League sides join the League Cup competition when there are only four rounds left to play incl. final. This is to supposedly help Scottish teams in Europe. But, ironically teams like Dunfermline, Aberdeen, Dundee United, Dundee, Hibernian, Hearts, St Johnstone did BETTER in Europe-a few substantially better, when they didn’t get this advantage, many years ago!

I don’t know if it is to help them as much as to do with clashes with EUFa schedules.

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

1 minute ago, Lenziejag said:

I don’t know if it is to help them as much as to do with clashes with EUFa schedules.

Well, as you say, it may be primarily because of a clash with European schedules, but undoubtedly only having to negotiate just four games successfully before you end up with a gleaming  silver trophy in your hands, must be an advantage in winning THAT domestic national cup. Thistle (along with all the teams who have played in the group stages-incl. eg  Prem. League Killie) will  ALREADY have played four games by 5pm tomorrow evening!)

[Lenziejag]

12 hours ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Well, as you say, it may be primarily because of a clash with European schedules, but undoubtedly only having to negotiate just four games successfully before you end up with a gleaming  silver trophy in your hands, must be an advantage in winning THAT domestic national cup. Thistle (along with all the teams who have played in the group stages-incl. eg  Prem. League Killie) will  ALREADY have played four games by 5pm tomorrow evening!)

I understand your point about having played 4 games before the end of July(actually it will be 5, counting the Dundee game), but not so much the no of games to win a trophy. There are only 42 teams in the SPFL, so juggling those numbers means the maximum to win in  a knockout competition would be 6, but most likely 5.
The next round of the league cup isn’t until the end of August. I think the number of games played in the groups won’t really have a bearing. Unless your team has picked up a suspension or injury,of course

 

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

I understand your point about having played 4 games before the end of July(actually it will be 5, counting the Dundee game), but not so much the no of games to win a trophy. There are only 42 teams in the SPFL, so juggling those numbers means the maximum to win in  a knockout competition would be 6, but most likely 5.
The next round of the league cup isn’t until the end of August. I think the number of games played in the groups won’t really have a bearing. Unless your team has picked up a suspension or injury,of course

 

No, my point is Thistle have played FOUR LEAGUE CUP GAMES so far. (The Dundee game is a league game) If they go through, (which seems likely ie beating Montrose) they will have a FIFTH game to play etc. ie for Thistle to (potentially) win the League cup they would have 4+ all the rest of the games. Celtic, Rangers etc have ONLY FOUR games to WIN the Cup. (It doesn’t matter when the games are played, it’s the number of them I’m highlighting.) Having to play MORE games to win a competition must surely have a bearing on the ease with which a team can win a trophy. Thistle had to play TWELVE games to win a League cup in 1971. That’s 12 x 90 minutes (+) = 1080 minutes, whilst eg Celtic or Rangers can do it in 360 minutes, AND they’ve got huge squads of players with many young players (one they’ve just purloined from us) at their disposal. They can pack their subs bench with loads of talent. It’s the same in other competitions eg FA Cup or *(Not all) Champions Lge with one major difference. In those, there are STILL a significant number of rounds for the teams which enter later to negotiate to win the trophy. The * has a group stage before knockout. Scotland’s League cup with just FOUR games to win a major national trophy is unusual.
 

I think the SPFL should, instead of giving those top tier teams what amounts to a bye, to avoid a number of rounds, make them play and they could utilise their WHOLE squads, younger players etc.  They’re always saying  they’re young players don’t get enough games and asking to put a Colt team into the lower leagues, so why don’t they use them, or some of them HERE, in the Scottish League Cup group stage etc?
 

The truth is a competition receives respect for the amount of difficulty involved in winning it. Winning just four games to get a NATIONAL trophy doesn’t meet that requirement (IMO) and makes it more like the (old) Glasgow Cup! (Before THAT was left to the Colts!)

Edited July 23, 2022 by denismcquadeno.eleven

[westertonjagfan]

On 7/21/2022 at 11:50 AM, elevenone said:

Just reading back on prize money.  So a win on Sat guarantees us a minimum of 50k as well as the 17k for tv game vs Killie.  A real incentive to be topping the group after Montrose game.

That's decent-a lot more than I realised it was worth. Mon the Jags-ignore that rain.

[Lenziejag]

3 hours ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

No, my point is Thistle have played FOUR LEAGUE CUP GAMES so far. (The Dundee game is a league game) If they go through, (which seems likely ie beating Montrose) they will have a FIFTH game to play etc. ie for Thistle to (potentially) win the League cup they would have 4+ all the rest of the games. Celtic, Rangers etc have ONLY FOUR games to WIN the Cup. (It doesn’t matter when the games are played, it’s the number of them I’m highlighting.) Having to play MORE games to win a competition must surely have a bearing on the ease with which a team can win a trophy. Thistle had to play TWELVE games to win a League cup in 1971. That’s 12 x 90 minutes (+) = 1080 minutes, whilst eg Celtic or Rangers can do it in 360 minutes, AND they’ve got huge squads of players with many young players (one they’ve just purloined from us) at their disposal. They can pack their subs bench with loads of talent. It’s the same in other competitions eg FA Cup or *(Not all) Champions Lge with one major difference. In those, there are STILL a significant number of rounds for the teams which enter later to negotiate to win the trophy. The * has a group stage before knockout. Scotland’s League cup with just FOUR games to win a major national trophy is unusual.
 

I think the SPFL should, instead of giving those top tier teams what amounts to a bye, to avoid a number of rounds, make them play and they could utilise their WHOLE squads, younger players etc.  They’re always saying  they’re young players don’t get enough games and asking to put a Colt team into the lower leagues, so why don’t they use them, or some of them HERE, in the Scottish League Cup group stage etc?
 

The truth is a competition receives respect for the amount of difficulty involved in winning it. Winning just four games to get a NATIONAL trophy doesn’t meet that requirement (IMO) and makes it more like the (old) Glasgow Cup! (Before THAT was left to the Colts!)

I kind of understand where you are coming from, but I thought I addressed the issues of playing an uneven number of games to win the trophy,(ok 4 to 8 is a big difference) and the small number of games to win a trophy in Scotland in a knockout competition? Regarding Colt teams, there is a lot of opposition to their inclusion in the Challenge cup - I don’t think it would go down too well if some of that squad was used in the league cup.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

The League Cup format was changed to remove pre-season friendlies.

The positives are it brings competitive football earlier which players want over friendlies.

It increases crowds which helps clubs revenue.

They recently changed the regional format as clubs were playing each other to often.  It works. It's logical and fits in with Scottish football setup.

The clubs higher up the pyramid often have players playing longer in international teams so need a rest.  They also need to prepare for European competitions.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Lambies Lost Doo

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

59 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I kind of understand where you are coming from, but I thought I addressed the issues of playing an uneven number of games to win the trophy,(ok 4 to 8 is a big difference) and the small number of games to win a trophy in Scotland in a knockout competition? Regarding Colt teams, there is a lot of opposition to their inclusion in the Challenge cup - I don’t think it would go down too well if some of that squad was used in the league cup.

The ‘difference’ is that the team eg Rangers and Celtic put out in eg a game in the early July group section of the  League Cup would be THE ONLY team they would have competing in the League Cup. Therefore, if the (Colt) team lost, the club would be OUT of that cup. In effect, it would be them CHOOSING to put out a reserve side or mainly reserve side, with a few of the regular team. Of course they could STILL  put out their regular team, because the team they put out would NOT be called ‘Colts’. But, they would HAVE to negotiate the early European rounds and the Scottish League cup SIMULTANEOUSLY, which is my point. The difference between that and having a totally separate Colt team  in the lower league, is that allows eg Rangers to put out TWO teams from the SAME club in the SAME competition (SPFL) (with first team in top tier and Colt team in lower league at SAME time! I am totally against THAT!

In England, teams like eg Manchester United having been putting out young reserve sides with a few peripheral first team players in the early rounds of their League Cup for years. What I’m suggesting is simply the same as that.

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

1 hour ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

The League Cup format was changed to remove pre-season friendlies.

The positives are it brings competitive football earlier which players want over friendlies.

It increases crowds which helps clubs revenue.

They recently changed the regional format as clubs were playing each other to often.  It works. It's logical and fits in with Scottish football setup.

The clubs higher up the pyramid often have players playing longer in international teams so need a rest.  They also need to prepare for European competitions.

 

Yes, I can follow that reasoning, but wouldn’t it be nice to win the League Cup again or see a smaller side win it again? Allowing those top tier teams the opportunity to win that trophy playing only four games gives them an advantage. I don’t want to see Rangers or Celtic or even Hearts or Hibs given any advantages in winning domestic trophies. And, as for top tier players needing a rest, we’ll why at the expense of lower placed teams? The first two get enough as it is! Making them put out a side (of some description) in the early League Cup rounds-group stage, would I feel, make things a bit more equal. And, if Rangers or Celtic decided, ‘We’re not really bothered so much about the League Cup, we’ll gamble with our younger side, that would be up to them. Their choice. I’d be delighted to see the OF go out in an early round and bring an end to…’The Treble!’ Scottish football would benefit from that too. Who cares if a young Celtic side went out at the group stage in these circumstances? if you end up winning the trophy, you’ve won it against whoever was put in front of you. They could have chosen to play their regular team, but chose to keep them back for European games, and if that means they’re out of the League Cup early, tough luck!

[Cfirejkl]

I really like this cup format.  Especially as it is not regionalized.

  I understand the idea of having all the teams in right away - and apart from the Motherwell mid week game I think they could all play undisturbed.  The games could be used as prep for the Euro games.

Also it would be a gate turner for some smaller teams to have a Celtic/Rangers clash.

I'm for anything that reduces the OF's abundant advantage.

[denismcquadeno.eleven]

20 minutes ago, Cfirejkl said:

I really like this cup format.  Especially as it is not regionalized.

  I understand the idea of having all the teams in right away - and apart from the Motherwell mid week game I think they could all play undisturbed.  The games could be used as prep for the Euro games.

Also it would be a gate turner for some smaller teams to have a Celtic/Rangers clash.

I'm for anything that reduces the OF's abundant advantage.

I think ALL Thistle fans would agree on THAT LAST SENTENCE!