Mad Mull Jag Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 I agree that we need a youth set up. Just look we have brought in cash wise from Lindsay and Fitzpatrick. Unfortunately not every player will make it to the first team, some will make it and not progress. Realistically you have to give it 10 years to see full extent of it working or not. That way getting a lad at 10/11 should see him progress through to the 1st team by the time he is 20/21. I would think if we good get 10 players having played 100 games in the first team for us in a decade in would be deemed successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 20 minutes ago, Mad Mull Jag said: I agree that we need a youth set up. Just look we have brought in cash wise from Lindsay and Fitzpatrick. Unfortunately not every player will make it to the first team, some will make it and not progress. Realistically you have to give it 10 years to see full extent of it working or not. That way getting a lad at 10/11 should see him progress through to the 1st team by the time he is 20/21. I would think if we good get 10 players having played 100 games in the first team for us in a decade in would be deemed successful. Think the Club and management need to have a different thought process, example being sending Calum Wilson out on loan then bringing in Cammy Palmer from Sevco . Why on earth are we developing players for Sevco when we should be developing our own . The Academy has been going since 2013 , unfortunately we haven’t got a great track record compared to a Hamilton or a Motherwell whose management have been instructed to give the youngsters a pathway to the first team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 1 hour ago, jlsarmy said: Think the Club and management need to have a different thought process, example being sending Calum Wilson out on loan then bringing in Cammy Palmer from Sevco . Why on earth are we developing players for Sevco when we should be developing our own . The Academy has been going since 2013 , unfortunately we haven’t got a great track record compared to a Hamilton or a Motherwell whose management have been instructed to give the youngsters a pathway to the first team. One of the many dispiriting aspects of last season was the embarrassing thrashings suffered by our Development Team...it's a concern that the great opportunity afforded by the Weir Academy has hardly produced any players good enough for the First Team...and that has not been a particularly high standard in the last two seasons. Maybe Kevin Nisbet would have developed better as a player if he had been given more games in preference to that hopeless lump Pogba. I hope there are better young players coming through...and that they are given a proper chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Winter of '63 said: One of the many dispiriting aspects of last season was the embarrassing thrashings suffered by our Development Team...it's a concern that the great opportunity afforded by the Weir Academy has hardly produced any players good enough for the First Team...and that has not been a particularly high standard in the last two seasons. Maybe Kevin Nisbet would have developed better as a player if he had been given more games in preference to that hopeless lump Pogba. I hope there are better young players coming through...and that they are given a proper chance. We didn't play a Development Team last season. It was a Reserve Team. Our older teens by and large were out on loan and we were fielding 15-17 year olds playing alongside the likes of Jack Storer, Ally Roy , Tam Scobbie & Coulibaly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinhead Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 Our youth system needs to come to fruition, i understand the urgency and need when we are struggling to leave out the youth and sign seasoned pro's but we need to remember that last time when we were on our knees we ended up with Kenny Arthur & Alan Archibald. Had we not been so financially ****** both of them could have been yesterdays Kevin Nisbet or todays Callum Wilson. As has been pointed out Nisbet instead of Pogba would have been no worse, Wilson instead of Palmer would have been no worse. If we are going to have a real youth system we need to throw these guys in and keep them in. Not pop them in and if they have a bad game drop them out, stick with them and let them grow. Tbh i would rather see one of our own be a raw talent and make mistakes and then grow into a player than have someone else's youngsters on loan. Fair enough they may fail and not make it long term but give the lads a chance. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter of '63 Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 21 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: We didn't play a Development Team last season. It was a Reserve Team. Our older teens by and large were out on loan and we were fielding 15-17 year olds playing alongside the likes of Jack Storer, Ally Roy , Tam Scobbie & Coulibaly. I know you go to a lot of the Reserve Games and I appreciate your reports - surely it can't have done any good for our young kids being hammered by between 6 & 9 goals by older boys just about every game? And none of our older players have made the grade. I was delighted that Colin Weir was investing in a Youth Academy for Thistle rather than buying players for the First Team...but so far the products from the Weir Academy have been a disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cfirejkl Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 13 hours ago, CillitB4ng said: Kakay has been recalled to QPR. Is this official? I was hoping this would be through the end of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Cfirejkl said: Is this official? I was hoping this would be through the end of the season. Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambies Lost Doo Posted December 30, 2019 Report Share Posted December 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Mad Mull Jag said: I agree that we need a youth set up. Just look we have brought in cash wise from Lindsay and Fitzpatrick. Lindday and Fitzpatrick were not from the Weir Thistle Academy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 Prior to McCalls first tenure we didn't run any sort of youth structure. From what I remember he was instrumental in bringing back youth teams from about 2009. The Thistle Weir Youth Academy was only setup in 2013. The elite youth academy has teams from under 11s onwards.Its rare to see a youngster get to the first team of any club who isn't at least 17/18 which means the first batch of players to have gone through that entire pathway will only start to appear (if at all) in the next 2 years and the value of the Thistle weir academy and the elite youth academy pathway can only truely be judged in the next 3 years. What McCall reinstated in 2009 had already brought some rewards. Liam Lindsay, Aidan Fitzpatrick, Stuart Bannigan, James Penrice and Jack Hendry have probably been the most obvious but Scully, McCarthy and Nisbet played a decent amount of games and therefore saved the club wages. As a club Thistle have negected youth development for nudging 30 years. The last player I can remember us developing through the ranks prior to the names above was Mo Johnston. Post relegation from the SPL in 81/82 we haven't done a thing with youth development until the last 10 years so perhaps we need to accept that it will take a while and not rip up the current approach too quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 6 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: Lindday and Fitzpatrick were not from the Weir Thistle Academy. Were neither of them part of our youth set up at all ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 20 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: Were neither of them part of our youth set up at all ? That got me thinking: when precisely does the sell-on of a young player automatically trigger a percentage to the club that he was a player with when he was younger? What are the rules surrounding how long he was with the club, under what kind of contract etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 8 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: Lindday and Fitzpatrick were not from the Weir Thistle Academy. Fitzpatrick was with the Academy for several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emsca Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 14 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: Disagree with this entirely. 18 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: And this is why I worry about a club our size with very limited resources having an Academy of this nature. Even the biggest most famous clubs for bringing through youths get a gem once every couple seasons with huge turnover in players. We are stretching ourelves. By all accounts have youth teams as part of community work and to help foster fanbase but we should be picking up players post 17/18 who have been let go by bigger clubs in Scotland and England. I also disagree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Murray Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 10 hours ago, Pinhead said: Our youth system needs to come to fruition, i understand the urgency and need when we are struggling to leave out the youth and sign seasoned pro's but we need to remember that last time when we were on our knees we ended up with Kenny Arthur & Alan Archibald. Had we not been so financially ****** both of them could have been yesterdays Kevin Nisbet or todays Callum Wilson. As has been pointed out Nisbet instead of Pogba would have been no worse, Wilson instead of Palmer would have been no worse. If we are going to have a real youth system we need to throw these guys in and keep them in. Not pop them in and if they have a bad game drop them out, stick with them and let them grow. Tbh i would rather see one of our own be a raw talent and make mistakes and then grow into a player than have someone else's youngsters on loan. Fair enough they may fail and not make it long term but give the lads a chance. Putting youngters in before they are ready does them more hard than good. I find it very strange that you think Wilson and Palmer are in a similar class. Wilson could not get a strarting place for Elgin when he went out on loan. The path we have for Sena is the right one. Out getting a regular place for a good Montrose side. He will hopfully come back in ready for the first team next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Fawlty Towers said: Fitzpatrick was with the Academy for several years. If memory serves me correct he joined Thistle at 11 year old, so he’s been with us as long as the Thistle Weir has Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 10 hours ago, Pinhead said: Our youth system needs to come to fruition, i understand the urgency and need when we are struggling to leave out the youth and sign seasoned pro's but we need to remember that last time when we were on our knees we ended up with Kenny Arthur & Alan Archibald. Had we not been so financially ****** both of them could have been yesterdays Kevin Nisbet or todays Callum Wilson. As has been pointed out Nisbet instead of Pogba would have been no worse, Wilson instead of Palmer would have been no worse. If we are going to have a real youth system we need to throw these guys in and keep them in. Not pop them in and if they have a bad game drop them out, stick with them and let them grow. Tbh i would rather see one of our own be a raw talent and make mistakes and then grow into a player than have someone else's youngsters on loan. Fair enough they may fail and not make it long term but give the lads a chance. You more or less said what I was thinking. Our youth policy seems to work quite well up to the stage when you need to have a way of bedding a youngster into the first team and then we fall down. I think management have been scared to give youth a chance, relying instead on older guys who sometimes are no better or worse than the youngster would have been (even unwilling to give youngsters 10-15 minute run outs towards the end of games). Lindsay and Fitzpatrick mentioned but don't forget they both got chances in part because of injuries to other players not because the managers really trusted them at first. Penrice seems to be the only youngster who has managed to play regularly even when there is an older option (Robson) and seems to have embedded himself in the team. But we really should have had 2-3 more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 10 hours ago, Pinhead said: Our youth system needs to come to fruition, i understand the urgency and need when we are struggling to leave out the youth and sign seasoned pro's but we need to remember that last time when we were on our knees we ended up with Kenny Arthur & Alan Archibald. Had we not been so financially ****** both of them could have been yesterdays Kevin Nisbet or todays Callum Wilson. As has been pointed out Nisbet instead of Pogba would have been no worse, Wilson instead of Palmer would have been no worse. If we are going to have a real youth system we need to throw these guys in and keep them in. Not pop them in and if they have a bad game drop them out, stick with them and let them grow. Tbh i would rather see one of our own be a raw talent and make mistakes and then grow into a player than have someone else's youngsters on loan. Fair enough they may fail and not make it long term but give the lads a chance. Kids that show potential at 10 or 11 can change dramatically by the time they reach 16 or 17, what the academy can do is to try to keep them focused, interested and developing. Although the actual development can be hampered by genetics (some kids grow differently than others. The academy has been in place 6 years, with (I believe) 20 kids per year in each group. Even getting 1 from each group that is 1st team ready is tricky, the large clubs have the “A” academy with the same amount or more per year, but also have the various umbrella academies, youth teams and boys clubs, allowing them a massive pool per year to find that 1 or 2 real prospects. Viking over here have over 100 per year group, with 25 in the “A” academy and the rest at various clubs that feed in. Spurs is more than twice that. Getting 1 player every 2 or 3 years that is 1st team quality and hopefully becomes sellable makes it viable 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1876 Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 Remember the save the jags era When we had to play youngsters Martin lauchlan. Robert dun Willie Howie And Jamie Mackenzie 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 Just noticed a post on Facebook by Thistle. In the 10’s, we played nearly 450 competitive matches. In those games there was at least 1 youth graduate in over 400 of those matches. Don’t know if that means played part or all of the game or includes on bench but not used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 One thing to note is that the youth academy is not just about bringing on new players. I know a coach at the Man City Academy and he was saying that part of the role is to set up the next generation of supporter. If you can get them early and playing for your team, there is a high chance that they will become a future supporter. Even if they never make it to the professional ranks, it doesn't take many years as a supporter to generate more than it cost to train them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 13 hours ago, Winter of '63 said: I know you go to a lot of the Reserve Games and I appreciate your reports - surely it can't have done any good for our young kids being hammered by between 6 & 9 goals by older boys just about every game? And none of our older players have made the grade. I was delighted that Colin Weir was investing in a Youth Academy for Thistle rather than buying players for the First Team...but so far the products from the Weir Academy have been a disappointment. Correct. Last season we should've played in the 2nd reserve tier if it was always our intention to play such young lads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 20 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: One thing to note is that the youth academy is not just about bringing on new players. I know a coach at the Man City Academy and he was saying that part of the role is to set up the next generation of supporter. If you can get them early and playing for your team, there is a high chance that they will become a future supporter. Even if they never make it to the professional ranks, it doesn't take many years as a supporter to generate more than it cost to train them. Agree. Although as fans we will probably not think along the lines of the experiences that the young players will get. Travelling ,making friends and of course doing the laps of honour at Firhill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 13 hours ago, Lambies Lost Doo said: Lindday and Fitzpatrick were not from the Weir Thistle Academy. Fitzpatrick came thru the Weir Thistle Academy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted December 31, 2019 Report Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said: One thing to note is that the youth academy is not just about bringing on new players. I know a coach at the Man City Academy and he was saying that part of the role is to set up the next generation of supporter. If you can get them early and playing for your team, there is a high chance that they will become a future supporter. Even if they never make it to the professional ranks, it doesn't take many years as a supporter to generate more than it cost to train them. Not sure about that theory , certainly not in Scotland, most kids even at an early age and probably influenced by their parents have already got a team they support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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