The Jags Foundation

[partickthedog]

3 hours ago, stolenscone said:

PTD -  that's pretty much how trusts operate.  I'm not criticising trust structures as a point of principle,  but I would seriously question whether it is an appropriate structure for this purpose.  It doesn't lend itself easily to dynamic interaction with supporters. 

Thank you, SS, helpful as always.

I am wondering, is there an honourable way forward for the PTFC Trustees to at least reduce the damage they have already caused? If they have any shred of self awareness, surely they must realise by now that they have no democratic legitimacy, no demonstrable independence from the Club Board and little, if any, support within the fan base they claim to represent. Why do they not immediately facilitate trustee elections (in saying that I appreciate that there would be practical and technical problems in doing this, so perhaps "as soon as reasonably practicable" is more realistic), with all trustee positions being available, and pause any further progress on the terms of the share transfer in the meantime. 

Any or all of the Trustees would of course be eligible to stand in these elections. If any or all of them are elected, then fair enough. The 5 current Trustees would undertake in advance to assume as trustees those elected in the process and then resign themselves (unless elected). The trustees chosen by the fans (possibly including some from the current TJF Board) can then re-engage with 3BC to renegotiate the share transfer on a basis which truly reflects fan ownership.

No doubt this is full of holes and is probably in dreamland, but does it at least give some idea of a general direction of travel?  

[stolenscone]

I always had it in my mind that a sensible approach would be to have trustee elections, then engage with supporters to ascertain the best way forward.  Ultimately,  if the majority of supporters indicate that they don't think that the Trust is the best vehicle to deliver this, or if they think that the Trust should only proceed on a particular basis, then that is what should happen.   A transparent and open dialogue should be had to ensure that supporters make up their own minds, based on a full understanding of all the facts and consequences of each proposed course of action.  Treat everyone like adults and let the majority decide. 

So basically, yes. I agree with what you're saying!

[sandy]

55 minutes ago, MarciaBlaine said:

“But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Jacqui.”

Out of laughs 

[watties wallies]

From the Trust Proposal

"We reiterate that we believe that Partick Thistle Football Club is well run and that we trust in the current Board of Directors."

Question.... who appointed the 5 members of the trust

Question....what happened to the previous trust members  did they resign or were they pushed

Question.... has the "new trust " been given access to the current financial position of PTFC 

we are being taken for mugs

 

 

[BowenBoys]

Assuming the transfer of shares goes through, is there a long game to be played?

In ten months time season tickets need to be renewed. What if over half of those renewals opt out of trust membership? Do the trust lose legitimacy or is that no longer important by then?

[JAG1970]

23 minutes ago, BowenBoys said:

Assuming the transfer of shares goes through, is there a long game to be played?

In ten months time season tickets need to be renewed. What if over half of those renewals opt out of trust membership? Do the trust lose legitimacy or is that no longer important by then?

Apologies if this has been asked and answered before, but can you opt out of the (default/non voluntary/never asked) trust membership? 

[Woodstock Jag]

People asking not to be a member of this Trust would be cutting their nose to spite their faces, for what it's worth, especially if it already has the shares.

[BowenBoys]

22 minutes ago, JAG1970 said:

Apologies if this has been asked and answered before, but can you opt out of the (default/non voluntary/never asked) trust membership? 

It's mentioned in their proposal.

[BowenBoys]

17 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

People asking not to be a member of this Trust would be cutting their nose to spite their faces, for what it's worth, especially if it already has the shares.

I'm simply asking whether the trust would lose legitimacy if they no longer 'represented' a majority of fans. 

[Woodstock Jag]

13 minutes ago, BowenBoys said:

I'm simply asking whether the trust would lose legitimacy if they no longer 'represented' a majority of fans. 

This presupposes that they have legitimacy right now.

[stillresigned]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:24 AM, Dougall said:

The club having conversations with itself again? It's difficult to discern the difference between 3BC, the PTFC Board and the PTFC Trust as their actions and comms seem to serve the self interest of JL rather than the fans.

Couldn’t argue with that assessment, particularly with my extremely limited or inside knowledge of events.

[sb1876]

11 hours ago, BowenBoys said:

Assuming the transfer of shares goes through, is there a long game to be played?

In ten months time season tickets need to be renewed. What if over half of those renewals opt out of trust membership? Do the trust lose legitimacy or is that no longer important by then?

Great point, I'd imagine that steps will be taken throughout the course of this season to (further?) legitimise the Trust and ensure that even with a handful of season ticket holders, they can remain the majority shareholder?

Surely if the current trustees are jags fans, they will only want what's best for the club - that isn't the current shambles that lacks support from a significant section of the actual fans?

[lady-isobel-barnett]

12 hours ago, watties wallies said:

Question.... who appointed the 5 members of the trust

Only know three of them but they appear to have all the necessary attributes. https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/cskAAOSwaGpi7qJh/s-l1600.jpg 

[Woodstock Jag]

UPDATE:

TJF have examined the PTFC Trust proposal document, and have taken into consideration the comments from the PTFC Trust trustees in their interview with James Cairney and the Club Board Q&A posted yesterday.

Simply put, we're not impressed. We are left with more questions than answers about this deal, how it was arrived at, and what it will mean for fans.

It's a bad deal, it's not in the interests of the fans, and it should not proceed.

Read more here: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/further-thoughts-on-the-ptfc-trust-proposal/

Detailed document here: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/TJF-review-of-the-PTFC-Trust-Proposal.pdf

[elevenone]

Again very well presented piece and dare I add a fast becoming worst nightmare for the Trust.

Regards point 1:3. Have the trust got a timeframe in which they have to provide that info?

Even a complete neutral going through TJF or the Trust proposals would see how black and white this is in terms of whom should be the preferred model.  The fact that 3BC are probably the only ones who see it different is quite frankly astonishing and reeks of self serving preservation.

[Woodstock Jag]

13 minutes ago, elevenone said:

Again very well presented piece and dare I add a fast becoming worst nightmare for the Trust.

Regards point 1:3. Have the trust got a timeframe in which they have to provide that info?

Even a complete neutral going through TJF or the Trust proposals would see how black and white this is in terms of whom should be the preferred model.  The fact that 3BC are probably the only ones who see it different is quite frankly astonishing and reeks of self serving preservation.

The thing about trusts is that they are generally very poor vehicles for transparency. There are not, for example, specific provisions about how quickly information must be provided to beneficiaries. 

However, the specific information we asked the Trust to provide were minutes of meetings of the trustees. As recently as March 2022, these were routinely published on the Club website. It was an established precedent and expectation that beneficiaries should be able to inform themselves as to the matters being discussed by the (then) 6 trustees.

For reasons as yet unexplained, subsequent minutes have not been put into the public domain, or otherwise provided to beneficiaries in a timely manner.

What we were asking for should really be a quick 5 minute job, for a trustee to dig out the minutes, which are official records of the trust, and to attach them to an email.

We formally requested them, on behalf of 200 beneficiaries, a week ago. We repeated the request on behalf of 300 beneficiaries, when more people had answered our members survey.

We have not received a substantive response.

[partickthedog]

30 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

UPDATE:

TJF have examined the PTFC Trust proposal document, and have taken into consideration the comments from the PTFC Trust trustees in their interview with James Cairney and the Club Board Q&A posted yesterday.

Simply put, we're not impressed. We are left with more questions than answers about this deal, how it was arrived at, and what it will mean for fans.

It's a bad deal, it's not in the interests of the fans, and it should not proceed.

Read more here: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/further-thoughts-on-the-ptfc-trust-proposal/

Detailed document here: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/TJF-review-of-the-PTFC-Trust-Proposal.pdf

Excellent. Obviously this had to be put together at pace, but it is all very clear and well expressed, unlike the hasty and shambolic utterances deriving from other sources. Good to get the longer term perspective on the PTFC Trust as well.

No doubt the EGM will give us more opportunity to consider how these strong themes can be harnessed towards effective and co-ordinated action. Unfortunately it looks like being a long haul, but I sense that there is the energy and commitment to see this through.

[jlsarmy]

51 minutes ago, elevenone said:

Again very well presented piece and dare I add a fast becoming worst nightmare for the Trust.

Regards point 1:3. Have the trust got a timeframe in which they have to provide that info?

Even a complete neutral going through TJF or the Trust proposals would see how black and white this is in terms of whom should be the preferred model.  The fact that 3BC are probably the only ones who see it different is quite frankly astonishing and reeks of self serving preservation.

The trouble is 3BC don’t see it different, they know what a fan based Club would be like and the accountability that would entail.

Many thanks to Woodstock Jag for all his excellent work on this dodgy/ dubious deal .

[dl1971]

Superb summary of the latest position by TJF. Articulate, cohert and concise demolition of the Jags Trust performance to date. You really do wonder that when they read it ( the JT ) in the cold light of day they might realise just how badly this is going....

[Norgethistle]

29 minutes ago, dl1971 said:

Superb summary of the latest position by TJF. Articulate, cohert and concise demolition of the Jags Trust performance to date. You really do wonder that when they read it ( the JT ) in the cold light of day they might realise just how badly this is going....

PTFC Trust not JAGS Trust 

[MarciaBlaine]

3 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

UPDATE:

TJF have examined the PTFC Trust proposal document, and have taken into consideration the comments from the PTFC Trust trustees in their interview with James Cairney and the Club Board Q&A posted yesterday.

Simply put, we're not impressed. We are left with more questions than answers about this deal, how it was arrived at, and what it will mean for fans.

It's a bad deal, it's not in the interests of the fans, and it should not proceed.

Read more here: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/further-thoughts-on-the-ptfc-trust-proposal/

Detailed document here: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/TJF-review-of-the-PTFC-Trust-Proposal.pdf

Having a summary and a longer detailed version is an excellent idea. Much more accessible for some who could struggle with a longer read for any number of reasons - eyesight, literacy, time and others.

On that note, has the Trust considered using anything like Biteable for short videos? It’s free, very easy to learn/use and makes content really accessible for people. Social media engagement increases by something like six times when images and video are used.

[partickthedog]

12 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

PTFC Trust not JAGS Trust 

Fair enough, but when I spoke to one of the PTFC Trustees in the Aitken Suite last Friday, he talked for some time about the Jags Trust. I actually thought he did mean the Jags Trust, which confused me mightily.  Eventually the penny dropped that he meant the PTFC Trust. I suppose that having been appointed on the Tuesday before, he did only have 3 days to try to get it into his head which trust he was a trustee of.

PS Apologies for ending the last sentence with a preposition, but these PTFC Trustees are fair doing my head in (sorry-done it again).

[Woodstock Jag]

Members survey results day: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/the-tjf-members-survey-the-results/

In short, it's not just 20 people shouting loudly on social media.

[Lenziejag]

I have my doubts whether any of this will make any difference to the outcome. Just because it’s a bad deal doesn’t mean it won’t happen. 
(Just look at Brexit;Trump; Boris and soon to be Liz Truss.) Anyway, For TJF sake, I hope they have a game plan and not just throwing out these statements and hoping to get some sympathy from their supporters. That’s going to achieve nothing. 
I have said it before and I will say it again, I don’t think the majority of fans are interested in the politics.Just want to go and watch a winning team.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

3 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I have my doubts whether any of this will make any difference to the outcome. Just because it’s a bad deal doesn’t mean it won’t happen. 
(Just look at Brexit;Trump; Boris and soon to be Liz Truss.) Anyway, For TJF sake, I hope they have a game plan and not just throwing out these statements and hoping to get some sympathy from their supporters. That’s going to achieve nothing. 
I have said it before and I will say it again, I don’t think the majority of fans are interested in the politics.Just want to go and watch a winning team.

I was one of those supporters not interested but it's now obvious there is a good number of people out there who want to get involved and I signed up.  We currently have board members  unelected and not even paying to be there.  They got their position through associated of a Euromillions winner.  That's it.